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Black Ops ships require 'Local' to be changed

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Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:10:00 - [1] Does it seem ironic and somewhat disappointing to anyone else that when using a Black Ops ship to help some friends sneak behind enemy lines that the first thing the enemy is going to see is a new group of bad guys pop up in local? Covert? I think not. There needs to be another reflection on why local exists in 0.0 My crusade for faster missiles.
Wardo21 The Arcanum	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:15:00 - [2] I think there needs to be an opt-out for local no matter where you are. The completely inane chatter that clutters up the local channel brings me to tears sometimes. (And sometimes ROTFLMAO but that doesn't help either.) If you want to talk to me, send me an convo invite or an eve-mail. Wardo21
Alex Terman Gallente Euphoria and Co.	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:42:00 - [3] I concur with this. Local should be treated like a default #Lobby as you would on IRC. And as has been pointed out, the very nature of "Everyone having to be connected to a local channel* defeats the purpose of Covert Operations.
Sha'ara Sha'amashira	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:03:00 - [4] i would say nerf 0.0 local but not empire local. if you can be war deced in empire where you're supposedly safe then you deserve to know about it from the empire who's space you're flying in, but in 0.0 where there are no things like concord and empires i find it totally fine for local to stop becoming a weapon even if it helps me in defending space. That or if you want to have teh current version of local my people mount up certain special mods on their ships that make it harder to fit anything else but gives the ship the ability to use local, but a nice ew frig would have to sacrifice something like their cloak to use it possibly.
Poena Loveless	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:19:00 - [5] This has been brought up in the past, its nothing new about black ops. all covert ops have suffered from this, and in lowsec/0.0 is been the cause of most logoffski events (carebear mining/ratting sees big bad bully pop up in local, etc. you know.) The opt in / opt out idea is eh-- Not that great, no one in their right mind would opt-in. The other idea of constilation chat (has been brought up before) suffers from the flaw that it gives more information that even local at times because it lets you see outside of the current system. I've proposed in the past, and still think the best thing to do, would be to just turn 0.0/low-sec local in to a 'recent speakers' or 'delayed update' channel.
Pathogenia	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:30:00 - [6] Yeah, how about a POS module which implements local for that system it is mounted in? Like some "local monitoring and communication device". Each empire system would have such a "npc-module" somewhere in system and each alliance / corp can decide where they want to put one. Give covops vessels a module which enables them to "cloak" from those scanners as well (mayby coupled to the active cloaking device) and there you go. Sounds balanced to me. You an also make these modules report to someone if they find a hostile in the system, even if theres no one in there. perhaps you need certain sov. levels to set those modules up... ways to implement / balance this is huge, i guess.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.07 22:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Poena Loveless This has been brought up in the past, its nothing new about black ops. I totally disagree. Black Ops present, for the first time, the ability for non-capital ships to enter a system and be combat ready. Recons and other ships had to pass through gates where they could be reconnoitered or destroyed. Black Ops ships now present the very real possibility of flanking an enemy without them having any warning. However, the existence of local means that the opponent will always have some degree of warning, regardless of how skillfully used the Black Ops crew might be. Essentially, local renders Black Ops ships (and their jump-in wingmen) far less useful. My crusade for faster missiles.
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.08 00:55:00 - [8] I agree that local in 0.0 space should either be removed or optional. www.eve-players.com
Plekto Priory Of The Lemon R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.08 01:39:00 - [9] Signed since day one. THESE ARE CHAT CHANNELS. They should not be serving the purpose of local status channels. Here's the fix: 1: replace local with an alerts channel 2: If you have a ship in your gang/alliance that sees the ship/enters the same grid with it, all members in your group or alliance that are in that same system get an alert. 3:If you have sovereignty, this also applies to gates and towers and stations. That way, it's not a giveaway, NOR is it a gimmie to the pirates and cloaked ships. "21:02 Player X entered system(name in red) "21:04 Player X seen at (name) gate" "21:05 Player X seen by (corpmate's ID) "21:07 Player X seen at (same name) gate" "21:07 Player X left system" etc - actual intel but not the current EYE OF GOD it is now that tells everyone. It wold default to enemies/red but could be filtered to include all people if you wanted on a personal basis. NPC structures would of course give no intel at all.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.08 21:36:00 - [10] Edited by: Tovarishch on 08/12/2007 21:36:51 Originally by: ViolenTUK I agree that local in 0.0 space should either be removed or optional. I don't see how 'optional' would ever work properly, as anyone who wanted to use local for intel would always opt to do so. Local in 0.0 needs to be removed. Period. EVE markets itself on being hardcore PVP. As long as local exists as a cheap, easy, riskless way to gather intel I don't see how anyone could view it as 'hardcore'. My crusade for faster missiles.
Donatien Francois	Posted - 2007.12.08 21:50:00 - [11] I say you should simply not show up in local unless you actually say something, much like the member lists for most other channels. However, this would unbalance things in favor of the cloakers a bit too much by itself, so to counter balance it, I'd like to see an improvement to ships' on-board scanners in terms of range and ease of use, the ability to scan out a cloaker with high enough skill (of course you'd have to know he was there in the first place, see nerfed local above). Another trick that would be nice is the ability to mount scanners at the stargates of a system where you have sovereignty that will passively alert you whenever a non-corp/alliance person shows up in system. The alert would come through as a system message in local so you'd still have to pay attention to local, but it could give you a warning about non-covert ops gangs entering your system. Flagship and Titans POS Warfare
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.09 17:58:00 - [12] I would go as far as to say remove the local room all together from 0.0 space. It provides a sense of security. You instantly know if you're alone or if there is a large group that could be forming a station camp in this system as you enter. In empire space the empire in charge would have a local frequency that all ship would be logged to. This makes sense. It would even make sense to have local channels still exist in Serpentis/Sansha/Guritas sovereign space as they could be running the local frequencies. However, in Player Owned or none owned 0.0 space, there's no-one running the radio broadcasts... why should the channels even exist. This would also leave open the possibility of POS's having radio broadcast towers that would force people into a local channel when they enter the system unless the controller gave the ship an override. Having all ship given a rating and broadcast towers also having rating would decide whether you're automatically added to the local channel or not. Covert Ops + Black Ops would get big bonuses to this. What do people think?
Archivian Specialatus Amarr Fairlight Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.12.09 19:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Tovarishch I don't see how 'optional' would ever work properly, as anyone who wanted to use local for intel would always opt to do so. If you log into local for intel, and your enemy has logged out of local because they want to be covert, then you achieve nothing but logging into local to look at all the other people who want to chat or show that they are in local. Or who are doing like you. Makes perfect sense. Local should be optional everywhere even in 0.0. (some people in 0.0 still like to chat) And if you have sov in 0.0 (maybe sov 2), then you should have a POS structure or network of POS structures or communication POS or network of communication POS's, to force local in that system or within a certain range within that system (maybe 10 AU's per POS). And if you are not with that Alliance who has local, you show up regardless of if you opt in or out of their local. And local will only update for the enemy when someone says something in local. nice and straightforward like that. ------------------------------- bring back Eve TV
Ellaine TashMurkon CBC Interstellar The Unseen Company	Posted - 2007.12.09 20:31:00 - [14] Some people in 0.0 like to chat? All should :) When I started in 0.0, friendlies were rare and saying "o/" to any blue was just a standard. And thae fact that every blue face was actually friendly and reday to say "be careful, enemy camp 2 jumps ahead" or "I left some nice spawns here" or "How is your war going, I thought your alliance is alreday dead". It was one of the best things in 0.0, as compared to empire full of anonymous random guys.
Mei Han Gallente Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.09 22:48:00 - [15] Edited by: Mei Han on 09/12/2007 22:51:25 Edited by: Mei Han on 09/12/2007 22:48:57 Originally by: Plekto Signed since day one. THESE ARE CHAT CHANNELS. They should not be serving the purpose of local status channels. Here's the fix: 1: replace local with an alerts channel 2: If you have a ship in your gang/alliance that sees the ship/enters the same grid with it, all members in your group or alliance that are in that same system get an alert. 3:If you have sovereignty, this also applies to gates and towers and stations. That way, it's not a giveaway, NOR is it a gimmie to the pirates and cloaked ships. "21:02 Player X entered system(name in red) "21:04 Player X seen at (name) gate" "21:05 Player X seen by (corpmate's ID) "21:07 Player X seen at (same name) gate" "21:07 Player X left system" etc - actual intel but not the current EYE OF GOD it is now that tells everyone. It wold default to enemies/red but could be filtered to include all people if you wanted on a personal basis. NPC structures would of course give no intel at all. I would agree on that. As a cov ops Pilot i find being "spoted" in local a bit annoying and unrealistic. But as a player i would like to rat for my wallet with relative peace and not being overrun by any BS or 200 man fleet passing by without me having a chance to defend/escape. For that matter i belive the above solution would be great.Or the option not to show in local would be restricted to Cov Ops / Recons / Black Ops even when they pass the gate with no alarm at all. A "Communications Jamming Device" on those kind of ships would serve as a very realistic excuse for me.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.10 00:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Tovarishch Edited by: Tovarishch on 07/12/2007 22:43:43 Originally by: Poena Loveless This has been brought up in the past, its nothing new about black ops. I totally disagree. Black Ops present, for the first time, the ability for non-capital ships to enter a system and be combat ready... without using jumpgates. No other ship has ever had this ability. Recons and other ships had to pass through gates where they could be reconnoitered or destroyed. Black Ops ships now present the very real possibility of flanking an enemy without them having any warning. However, the existence of local means that the opponent will always have some degree of warning, regardless of how skillfully used the Black Ops crew might be. Essentially, local renders Black Ops ships (and their jump-in wingmen) far less useful. Wiat, so black ops ships just got more powerful with the ability to enter and leave systems without using jump gates, and so the answer to this is to buff them more? I know youve had some whacky ideas in the past, but this takes the cake.
Redd Lenses Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.10 00:41:00 - [17] Just make a 30s-1m delay on showing who is in local. You can have the # in local update immediately, just don't have them show up in the members list.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2007.12.10 01:19:00 - [18] My prefered solution is that 'local' degrades as system sec status reduces (by 10 AU per sec drop). For example in 1.0 space your 'local' scan range is 100 AU. In .9 it drops to 90 AU and so on. Within .0 obviously the 'local' range is 0 AU, but those holding sov could place sensor beacons that boost the local scan AU for everyone in that system. Specific ship types (such as a new Early Warning ship) might have the capability to increase their own local AU range. Im a big fan of the cov ops ships, but I think we should be cautios about 'overpowering' these vessels to the detriment of uncloaked ships. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Elantte Racketeers	Posted - 2007.12.10 01:52:00 - [19] I read through this and saw some ideas I like and some I don't. My 2 cents: high sec: local as it is now low sec: number of people in local updates but people don't show until they say something. 0.0: number of people does not update and people do not show up until they speak. Alliance members could automaticly show up if you have soverenty and corp and gang members could show up regardless. Also if a person speaks then leaves system, local should update that they have left system.
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Goumindong Wiat, so black ops ships just got more powerful with the ability to enter and leave systems without using jump gates, and so the answer to this is to buff them more? I know youve had some whacky ideas in the past, but this takes the cake. A. If you believe Black Ops ships are overpowered feel free to speak up. As it stands now they are hugely inefficient, with a very short jump range. I would hardly begin to call them overpowered. So, your insinuation that they don't need a 'buff' is completely erroneous. B. If you'd like to point out some of my other 'whacky' ideas... feel free to point them out. Ad hominem namecalling from you isn't much of a surprise. My crusade for faster missiles.
Novacain Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.10 05:34:00 - [21] It is currently a general "flaw" with Eve. One that only increases regardless of the new 'covert' elements being added. The Eve universe is too transparent. On all levels.(There is the odd exception) Thus creating an enviroment where the prefered tactic is one devoid of the "need to know". When everyone is standing on top of the ant hill with a perfect vista. Simple solution: - cover the univers in darkness - allow NPC's to be the noisy birds on the savanna(where they are not, it should be dark) - allow player built oberservation installations/probes to come to their right Sorry if the above is misplaced in this thread. Did not know where else to put it. But the general point is a recurring theme. One of (market) transparency.
Archivian Specialatus Amarr Fairlight Corp FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.12.10 09:15:00 - [22] How about: When you activate your Cov-OPs cloak, you are removed from local. So you cant use local whilst you are cloaked and people in local cant see you. This would mean that being cloaked actually would mean that you are cloaked. But also cloakers cant just Cloak and watch local for hours, they would actually have to doing something to get info. And every time they want intel like local info then they will have to de cloak. It will be like a submarine surfacing for air. ------------------------------- bring back Eve TV
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.10 09:32:00 - [23] Originally by: Archivian Specialatus How about: When you activate your Cov-OPs cloak, you are removed from local. So you cant use local whilst you are cloaked and people in local cant see you. This would mean that being cloaked actually would mean that you are cloaked. But also cloakers cant just Cloak and watch local for hours, they would actually have to doing something to get info. And every time they want intel like local info then they will have to de cloak. It will be like a submarine surfacing for air. You my friend have a damn fine idea.... you get a cookie. Credit Due - Linkage
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.12.10 13:31:00 - [24] i'm not a fan of local too, but maybe i will not totally remove it the simplest thing imo is to show only people who are speaking, or eventually keep the channel but remove the ability to see who is in it Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Archivian Specialatus How about: When you activate your Cov-OPs cloak, you are removed from local. So you cant use local whilst you are cloaked and people in local cant see you. This would mean that being cloaked actually would mean that you are cloaked. But also cloakers cant just Cloak and watch local for hours, they would actually have to doing something to get info. And every time they want intel like local info then they will have to de cloak. It will be like a submarine surfacing for air. I can't agree with this line of thought. This would be a huge boon to afk cloakers who sit on gates, or to NPCers who have a cloak fitted to hide from roaming gangs... while at the same time doing nothing for 'the other guys'. My crusade for faster missiles.
Merina Taom	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:49:00 - [26] And it would be exactly how easy to find targets without local? All this would do is drain lowsec of even more people, and 00 would be a ***** to find targets in.
Effei Gloom Minmatar eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.10 18:52:00 - [27] How about a D E L A Y E D local channel ?! join IXC
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.10 20:52:00 - [28] Originally by: Merina Taom And it would be exactly how easy to find targets without local? All this would do is drain lowsec of even more people, and 00 would be a ***** to find targets in. I suppose hitting f10 and bringing up the map for active pilots in space is too difficult? I spent years playing MUDs before online games actually had pictures. Back in the olden days (and even in some modern online games) you had to go out and actively pursue targets. You didn't have the luxury of getting intel without some risk. As it stands now local elimates the need for scouting, and reduces the value of recon style ships. Imagine how valuable a recon/Black Ops pilot skilled in the use of probes and the scanner would suddenly become if local were removed from 0.0. The result is a more intriguing, dangerous, fun and thrilling region of space that requires a more multi-faceted group of skilled players to navigate. Not, 'log your alt in and check to see if someone is in OMG-FU'. My crusade for faster missiles.
TordenSkiold	Posted - 2007.12.10 21:10:00 - [29] "Local" may be altered to a "gate traffic log" broadcast. All traffic before you jump in yourself is not visible, but the traffic whilst you are in system will show up like in a log. Use of covert cynos lets you avoid popping up on this log. Cov-Ops still need to uncloak to activate the gate on the other side, so they should show up. The problem is if you remove local entirely, even in 00, you will tip the ballance to far in favour of attackers. I agree that in hi- & low sec local should still be available. .
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.11 04:00:00 - [30] Originally by: TordenSkiold The problem is if you remove local entirely, even in 00, you will tip the ballance to far in favour of attackers. I'm curious as to why you think this might be the case. I'm not saying that I disagree, I just want to know why you feel the change to local would cause this to happen. My crusade for faster missiles.

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