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Practical, Realistic Jita Solutions: Quick and Long Term

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:27:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 08/12/2007 19:36:20 Edited by: Rells on 08/12/2007 19:28:23 Jita is unplayable now. There is no way it can be argued otherwise with the recent GM closures of Jita. There needs to be a quick solution to the major market hub in the game. Short Term For the time being make all stations in Jita and all stations within a jump of Jita in the forge deliver all purchased items from jita to the buyer in their station. This will allow people to spread out. Hot patch this so we can use the major market hub. Long Term Solution Make broker fees scale up depending upon the number of orders in the station. When you put in a new sell order, the broker fees will be proportionate to the number of orders in the system to the point where they are 100% or more of the order theoretically. Keep in mind that broker fees in practice will never get to that level because people in the market will spread out when they get too expensive. This will make it too expensive to put in an order in a station that is already flooded. This makes sense as a station should have finite amount of space. In addition to this measure, change courier contracts so that the plastic wrap can not be opened except by the person making the contract. This would mean that people would have more confidence in other people shipping gear for them and aspiring shippers would know that they cant be as easily screwed. The result is that over time the market will spread out first from the station and to other stations in the system and then to neighboring systems. Controversial VERY Long Term Solution This solution is very long term and I know it is controversial but the idea has interesting points. Just hear me out here. The goal would be to have a section of 0.0 in the middle of empire and to lower the boundaries between factions in empire to the point that the pilot must fly through 0.0 to get from Gallente to Caldari for example. In addition make a large hole of 0.0 in the middle of empire. This will mean that the geographical center of the universe will be 0.0 space. In order to compensate for lost empire space, the sec status of current lowsec systems will gradually rise. This can be explained as an increase in tensions among the factions. The current lowsec border regions would slowly drop in sec status over the course of a month or more. The goal of this is to encourage regional markets to form and professional shipments between empire regions and markets. No matter how you reconfigure gates, people will always seek the center of the universe for the trade hub. If that center is 0.0 then that will cause more than one trade hub to form. Shipping with jump freighters for players will become a new profession and the market will be more diverse and spread out. All of these together would solve the problem of Jita and then cause the market in the center to spread out and the people there as well. In addition, it will diversify the market and encourage regional markets and open up new opportunities for play styles (such as a shipping corporation). As jita begins to change to 0.0 you pull the distributed local delivery system that I reccomended in the first part. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Won Swunglow Caldari Dead By Dawn	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:33:00 - [2] I love it... make it so Also Interbus could be used as a delivery service, as players do with freighters atm, Interbus could charge the player a set sum per jump to deliver your goods to you. Only in Empire systems ofcourse.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:35:00 - [3] Or just...you know...BUY AND SELL THINGS PLACES OTHER THAN JITA. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:38:00 - [4] Originally by: Tarminic Or just...you know...BUY AND SELL THINGS PLACES OTHER THAN JITA. Saying it accomplishes nothing. You have to provide incentives or people will ignore you as history has shown. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:39:00 - [5] Originally by: Won Swunglow I love it... make it so Also Interbus could be used as a delivery service, as players do with freighters atm, Interbus could charge the player a set sum per jump to deliver your goods to you. Only in Empire systems ofcourse. I would prefer to leave that with the players. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Tarminic Or just...you know...BUY AND SELL THINGS PLACES OTHER THAN JITA. Exactly. Jita is a player-developed problem, the answer to it should not come from CCP's programmers but from the players. Support your local markets, buy stuff in the area and pay a few million ISK more on a ship and its fittings, for the convenience of not having to go a few dozen jumps at most to Jita. But for those players that do buy and sell in Jita, I say to them, you know the risks, it may lag you. Its like going into lowsec or 0.0, you know its likely you'll be shot at - same deal, when you jump into Jita you know the potential for it to freeze up, so you have no right to complain. But, I will give you points for the broker system idea. Makes gameplay sense, why wouldn't brokers want more cash for the work they'd have to do in a trade hub, and its a way of passively encouraging people to spread out without using brute programming force like your first solution. Say no to knee-jerk additions and nerfs, mmkay?
Nycha	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:44:00 - [7] A small fix would be an option for the autopilot to not use jita in a route.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:47:00 - [8] Brute force is needed for the short term. The other impelemtnations are to encourage people to spread out using psychology. You and others can say "spread out" as much as you want until blue in the face but if Jita stays the only place to get everything, the situation snowballs. Poeple have no incentive to spread out and wont do so. In response they deal with the lag and complain about server lag (which frankly CCP can only do so much about.) Neophytes to macro psychology will say "JUST SELL ELSEWHERE" but those that know about how macro psychology works will tell you that people only do something when they have incentive to do so. Screaming accomplishes nothing. Making fees higher and making borders between regions more harsh will change that situation on a macro level. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Tarminic Or just...you know...BUY AND SELL THINGS PLACES OTHER THAN JITA. Saying it accomplishes nothing. You have to provide incentives or people will ignore you as history has shown. And the inability to login, incessant lag, long loading times, traffic jams, and overcrowded market isn't enough incentive? I'm against any coding changes to alleviate the Jita problem simple because if you do this for one system traffic will just bunch up in another one, so the only way to stay ahead it is to continue to implement code-bloating and poorly-scalable hotfixes to try and alleviate some of the stress. I think this is a bad idea. I already do my part by not going there, if others want to subject themselves to Jita its their choice, but I don't think CCP's coders should waste time on a player-created problem with a player-created solution when they could be fixing something more relevant to my ability to play. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:49:00 - [10] Originally by: Nycha A small fix would be an option for the autopilot to not use jita in a route. Wouldnt help. People mostly in jita are there to buy and sell, not transit. You could add another gateway between lonetrek and the forge to help traffic and move things along. However, it would do nothing for the Jita issue. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Scilent Enigma Minmatar Vae Victis Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:51:00 - [11] Sounds good, but I'd settle with the Autopilot not plotting the course through Jita no matter where you are going. (Yes I just filed a stuck petition)
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:51:00 - [12] I really like your "controversial" idea, imagine eve constantly moving, changing in security status. Oh the whining that would commence for some, but damn it would really make eve the sandbox game it should be. And no interbus crap, i prefer real players to move my goods (and dont mind paying more for it). Plenty of my BS/faction were moved across 20 jumps. (takes a day maybe for someone to accept and usually delivered 1-2 days later) _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Katharina Gorbacheva Amarr Soviet Star Federation Celestial Frontier	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:51:00 - [13] Originally by: Rells The goal would be to have a section of 0.0 in the middle of empire and to lower the boundaries between factions in empire to the point that the pilot must fly through 0.0 to get from Gallente to Caldari for example. Almost no one would tolerate such a nerf.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rells Originally by: Tarminic Or just...you know...BUY AND SELL THINGS PLACES OTHER THAN JITA. Saying it accomplishes nothing. You have to provide incentives or people will ignore you as history has shown. And the inability to login, incessant lag, long loading times, traffic jams, and overcrowded market isn't enough incentive? I'm against any coding changes to alleviate the Jita problem simple because if you do this for one system traffic will just bunch up in another one, so the only way to stay ahead it is to continue to implement code-bloating and poorly-scalable hotfixes to try and alleviate some of the stress. I think this is a bad idea. I already do my part by not going there, if others want to subject themselves to Jita its their choice, but I don't think CCP's coders should waste time on a player-created problem with a player-created solution when they could be fixing something more relevant to my ability to play. You dont understand macro psychology. Neither did Karl Marx if that makes you feel any better. Jita is the only place you can get high value ships such as HACs without paying highway robery prices. There are many many many macro psychological incentives pushing people to jita and the fact that "everyone goes to jita" is one of those reasons. It is also a POWERFUL reason. To counter this you must put in macro psychological reasons to go elsewhere. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Katharina Gorbacheva Originally by: Rells The goal would be to have a section of 0.0 in the middle of empire and to lower the boundaries between factions in empire to the point that the pilot must fly through 0.0 to get from Gallente to Caldari for example. Almost no one would tolerate such a nerf. Dont speak for others. Your opinions are confied to yourself and those that agree with you and barring polling of eve players in a statistical manner, your conclusions about everyone are hypothetical at best. I know as lot of people that love the idea. Only bleeding heart empire carebears with no concern for the game as a whole have opposed the idea as far as I have observed. The ironic thing is that these poeple are often centralized logging into less than a dozen mission center hubs or into Jita itself. I can see almost no reasons the change would be bad for the game. I can see how some people may not like it because of selfish motives. I cant think of a way it would hurt the game. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Nycha	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:57:00 - [16] Quote: Wouldnt help. People mostly in jita are there to buy and sell, not transit. You could add another gateway between lonetrek and the forge to help traffic and move things along. However, it would do nothing for the Jita issue. Im fully aware that this wont fix the general jita problem, but it will help a bit. Thats the reason I wrote "small". Another possible fix would be to split jita up. Say, you can buy/sell ships, ships mods and so on in jita. In perimeter you can buy/sell minerals and other basic ressources and in new caldari you can buy/sell the reset. Thats an example.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:57:00 - [17] Edited by: Sakura Nihil on 08/12/2007 20:00:42 Originally by: Rells Brute force is needed for the short term. The other impelemtnations are to encourage people to spread out using psychology. You and others can say "spread out" as much as you want until blue in the face but if Jita stays the only place to get everything, the situation snowballs. Poeple have no incentive to spread out and wont do so. In response they deal with the lag and complain about server lag (which frankly CCP can only do so much about.) The incentive to spread out is the lag, though. Remove it through a brute force solution, and you'll have people that have been avoiding Jita coming back there to shop, and wherever they were buying from previously is going to take an economic hit. Economic pressure is the way to go in this situation. To discourage people from congregating to such a degree, you have to reduce the profit people earn in such areas by increasing costs through fees. Frankly, however, I disagree that Jita is the "only place to get everything". Faction, officer, and deadspace modules? You would have a decently strong case, but T2 fits, ships, all that? No - other markets have most of what you need in their hubs, you might have to walk around a few jumps but that's not so bad. Originally by: Rells Neophytes to macro psychology will say "JUST SELL ELSEWHERE" but those that know about how macro psychology works will tell you that people only do something when they have incentive to do so. Screaming accomplishes nothing. Making fees higher and making borders between regions more harsh will change that situation on a macro level. Borders are too extreme, but fees are correct. Originally by: Rells Jita is the only place you can get high value ships such as HACs without paying highway robery prices. at this assumption - minor regions without an established hub in them, yes, true, but try checking the Citadel, Lonetrek, Domain, Sinq Laison, Heimatar, or Metropolis sometime. Are they a bit pricier, say 5-10m more? Yeah, but highway robbery? Lol, no. Say no to knee-jerk additions and nerfs, mmkay?
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.08 19:59:00 - [18] no one likes your short term solution either its worse than the last one ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Akion Noscire	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Katharina Gorbacheva Originally by: Rells The goal would be to have a section of 0.0 in the middle of empire and to lower the boundaries between factions in empire to the point that the pilot must fly through 0.0 to get from Gallente to Caldari for example. Almost no one would tolerate such a nerf. Dont speak for others. Your opinions are confied to yourself and those that agree with you and barring polling of eve players in a statistical manner, your conclusions about everyone are hypothetical at best. I know as lot of people that love the idea. Only bleeding heart empire carebears with no concern for the game as a whole have opposed the idea as far as I have observed. The ironic thing is that these poeple are often centralized logging into less than a dozen mission center hubs or into Jita itself. I can see almost no reasons the change would be bad for the game. I can see how some people may not like it because of selfish motives. I cant think of a way it would hurt the game. This will most likely create the biggest chokepoints ever.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:03:00 - [20] Originally by: SiJira no one likes your short term solution either its worse than the last one Clearly you are incorrect as several have said they like it. So your absolute "no one" is just preposterous from this very thread if you had bothered to read it. Second of all the short term solution would merely restore the market hub to be usable which it isnt now. But then you just try to be flippant and snide and offer no solutions of your own. Your choice but narrow minded and a useless post except to bump the thread. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:03:00 - [21] Originally by: Akion Noscire Originally by: Rells Originally by: Katharina Gorbacheva Originally by: Rells The goal would be to have a section of 0.0 in the middle of empire and to lower the boundaries between factions in empire to the point that the pilot must fly through 0.0 to get from Gallente to Caldari for example. Almost no one would tolerate such a nerf. Dont speak for others. Your opinions are confied to yourself and those that agree with you and barring polling of eve players in a statistical manner, your conclusions about everyone are hypothetical at best. I know as lot of people that love the idea. Only bleeding heart empire carebears with no concern for the game as a whole have opposed the idea as far as I have observed. The ironic thing is that these poeple are often centralized logging into less than a dozen mission center hubs or into Jita itself. I can see almost no reasons the change would be bad for the game. I can see how some people may not like it because of selfish motives. I cant think of a way it would hurt the game. This will most likely create the biggest chokepoints ever. Of course it would, imagine all the ships that would be killed trying to pass the area . That being said, the kind of borders Rells are looking at would be lowsec. However, as they don't cut off empires from each other completely, there's almost always a highsec route to take, which means relative safety for everyone and depopulation of lowsec. A long-term border fix he looks at should be the extension of lowsec, not the creation of 0.0. Say no to knee-jerk additions and nerfs, mmkay?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Economic pressure is the way to go in this situation. To discourage people from congregating to such a degree, you have to reduce the profit people earn in such areas by increasing costs through fees. Agree. This has been suggested many times and to my knowledge a Dev has never commented on it. Which is too bad since it is an elegant solution. Adds a money sink to the game. Allows players to do as they wish and sort out there own mess while applying pressure to spread out. Makes sense too as we all understand things to work this way (you want to rent a store in a high traffic mall you will pay more than to rent a store in some remote strip mall). They would need to add a line to the market order/contract window that would show the broker fee in relation to the region average appropriately colored green or red. My only question to this would be do you apply the fee to a whole system or just a station? Only per station would make more realistic sense but then you'd probably just see a hub form in Nonni which has a zillion stations.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Sakura Nihil The incentive to spread out is the lag, though. Borders are too extreme, but fees are correct. Clearly that isnt enough incentive. Argue what people should do all you want. Im telling you what they actually do. The fact that a huge percentage of sales in the game happen in Jita makes what people should do irrelevant. In addition the fact that lag has not encouraged the result desired to this point merely served as an indication that the incentive is not sufficient. Harder borders would encourage regionality. You cant just yell "sell elsewhere". If that would work on a macro scale it would have worked 3 years ago. It hasnt worked and is apparently insufficient. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Nycha	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:18:00 - [24] Rells, youre aware that the jump-in points to 0.0 on such routes will be camped 24/7? Youre also aware that jump-freighters will be used in the foreseeable future only by corps/alliances with enough isk and only by players with lot of SP? That persons with 1 account will not be able to transport, as you need jump-freighter + cyno*****?
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Sakura Nihil The incentive to spread out is the lag, though. Borders are too extreme, but fees are correct. Clearly that isnt enough incentive. Argue what people should do all you want. Im telling you what they actually do. The fact that a huge percentage of sales in the game happen in Jita makes what people should do irrelevant. In addition the fact that lag has not encouraged the result desired to this point merely served as an indication that the incentive is not sufficient. Harder borders would encourage regionality. You cant just yell "sell elsewhere". If that would work on a macro scale it would have worked 3 years ago. It hasnt worked and is apparently insufficient. Its essentially informed consent, however. You know when you're going to Jita what can happen, when I'm in the area and decide to go to Jita, I accept the fact that a whole lot of bad things can happen and deal with it. If I lock up, oh well, I knew the risks and won't complain - but, when people do complain, that's where I take issue - when they get moved, come back to Jita, and lock up again, that's where my faith in the ability of humanity to learn and change its behavior comes into question. CCP can only provide so much computing power right now to Jita, why should they make a system "special"? You want to talk about psycology, fine, giving Jita special treatment will only exacerbate the problem, like I said earlier. It will change the game mechanics, and suck even more life out of the already red-headed stepchildren of a market that is Oursulaert, Amarr, and Rens, turning it from a supherhub into a permanent game fixture. Borders would be okay if it was lowsec and not 0.0, you are correct in those regards. Large volumes could be moved by jump freighter across the area by nearby lowsec, and it would fit with the backstory of the empires "going to war" (whenever that's coming in ). 0.0 is too far, however. This ability to move cargo with a bit of effort, or stay within an empire for fear of getting ganked would encourge intra-regional trade, as well as revitalize the concept of lowsec. Say no to knee-jerk additions and nerfs, mmkay?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Nycha Rells, youre aware that the jump-in points to 0.0 on such routes will be camped 24/7? Youre also aware that jump-freighters will be used in the foreseeable future only by corps/alliances with enough isk and only by players with lot of SP? That persons with 1 account will not be able to transport, as you need jump-freighter + cyno*****? Or you need some friends. Gate camps can be repulsed and destroyed. Try not to be such a wimp. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Nycha Rells, youre aware that the jump-in points to 0.0 on such routes will be camped 24/7? Youre also aware that jump-freighters will be used in the foreseeable future only by corps/alliances with enough isk and only by players with lot of SP? That persons with 1 account will not be able to transport, as you need jump-freighter + cyno*****? Or you need some friends. Gate camps can be repulsed and destroyed. Try not to be such a wimp. No need to get hostile, he brings up some good points. Any solution implemented should not make it extremely difficult for a solo player to travel between empires. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Nycha	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Nycha Rells, youre aware that the jump-in points to 0.0 on such routes will be camped 24/7? Youre also aware that jump-freighters will be used in the foreseeable future only by corps/alliances with enough isk and only by players with lot of SP? That persons with 1 account will not be able to transport, as you need jump-freighter + cyno*****? Or you need some friends. Gate camps can be repulsed and destroyed. Try not to be such a wimp. You wrote practical/realistic in your topic but the more you write the more I get the feeling youre dreaming a (nice?) dream. This will happen: hXXp://tri.exanimo.org/?a=kills Check the misaba entries. Thats TRI sitting at the jump-in to providence killing the macros. I have no mercy for the macros, thats not the point. But, following youre own advice, you can get some friends and try to get some industrials save through this choke-point by destroying their gatecamp. Get real, people will always go for the cheap, fast cash. Yesterday its MOMs camping lowsec gates, today its empire ganking in choke-points and tomorrow its the big alliances controlling the whole transport economic at your proposed 0.0 jump-in systems. Wake up.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.08 20:43:00 - [29] Originally by: Rells Originally by: SiJira no one likes your short term solution either its worse than the last one Clearly you are incorrect as several have said they like it. So your absolute "no one" is just preposterous from this very thread if you had bothered to read it. Second of all the short term solution would merely restore the market hub to be usable which it isnt now. But then you just try to be flippant and snide and offer no solutions of your own. Your choice but narrow minded and a useless post except to bump the thread. ammend it to people that have any idea what this game is about or how a small thing like a courier interacts with the rest of the game it is sad that i had to spell that out for you ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.08 21:10:00 - [30] You also have to consider that different activities generate vastly different loads on the node. Sitting in Jita IV-4 working the market generates almost zero load on the Jita node, the majority of the load of that is on the Forge region market node. And as the market doesn't lag noticeably in other areas of the Forge region, it's reasonable to conclude that the market system is nowhere near it's capacity. Also, even if there viable alternative routes, the autopilot often picks the route through Jita anyway. I certainly know that whenever I set a course to somewhere south of Jita from Lonetrek, it usually tries to take me through Jita. Many people will be flying through Jita for no other reason that their autopilot has told them that that's the way to their destination. Yes, they could fly round manually, but as I'm sure your macro psychology will tell you, the majority will not do that, and will just follow the autopilot like sheep. Again, adding Jita bypass gates would mean the autopilot never took you into Jita unless that was your specific destination (and would likely be easier than trying to hack in a custom bias against Jita into the pathfinding algorithm). Session-changes and blobs in space are the two things known to generate a lot of server load. The constant blob outside the IV-4 station is particularly bad for this, as it combines the two to give a session-change into a blob. Even worse, it's a blob with a very high rate of collisions. If those collisions load the server anything like the way they spam the logserver, then that's going to be a significant load too. Sorting out the undocking mechanism to spread ships out more would allow them to warp away faster and keep the crowding to a minimum. Similarly, putting in a Jita bypass would not only avoid unnecessary session changes on the Jita node, it would also reduce the crowding at the gates. There is still a lot that can be done to ensure that traffic in Jita is solely that of it's trade hub function. Those options should be exhausted before heavy-handed market distortions are considered. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.

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