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tehSiner
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.10 16:48:00 -
[1]
why does a covertor have such high skill requirements? ok, mining barge 5 is logical, but astrogeology 5??? since once u reach astrogeology 5, the step to hulk is really minimal and hence the covertor is basically not needed any more...
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2007.12.10 17:03:00 -
[2]
Hulk used to be significantly more expensive. So while it was a small step in skills it was a big step in ISK.
Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter. Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.12.10 21:20:00 -
[3]
covertor used to be the highest end mining barge, for about 2 years or so. Then when hulks were introduced they were crazy expensive.
Its skill req should be slightly reduced now that hulks are much cheaper than they were. either mining barge or astrogeology to lvl4 would suffice.
Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2007.12.11 11:34:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn covertor used to be the highest end mining barge, for about 2 years or so. Then when hulks were introduced they were crazy expensive.
Its skill req should be slightly reduced now that hulks are much cheaper than they were. either mining barge or astrogeology to lvl4 would suffice.
For the covetor I presume, for the hulk this would be a pointless reduction.
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Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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Koppite
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Posted - 2007.12.11 13:02:00 -
[5]
hulks used to be around 450-500m.....get them for a 1/4 the price now..
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Velanth
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.12.11 15:30:00 -
[6]
With my current stats it takes 35d to fly a covetor and 35d 20h to fly a hulk. Compared to the retriever that I can already fly, the gap between the two barges is huge and once you get there you can already fly a hulk.
I think they should atleast remove the astrogeology 5 from the requirements and even with that it takes 20d to get from retriever to covetor.
Originally by: Arenis Xemdal Argh, my brain. Buying keyboards should be like buying cigarettes, over 18 with photo ID.
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Bhender
Amarr PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.12.11 16:38:00 -
[7]
reducing the requirement of Astro V to Astro IV for the Covetor would make sense in retrosepct.
Does CCP ever do things like that though, reduce the skill requirement for an item?
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Wadaya
Caldari Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.11 17:07:00 -
[8]
They reduced prereqs for salvaging, which ****ed off a good amount of people who wasted a week of training.
Wad
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tehSiner
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.12.11 17:42:00 -
[9]
****ed or not, artificially enlarging the covertor-hulk gap with large price difference should not be done in the first place. imho, the problem should really be fixed. the only question is in what direction: - reduce skill requirements for covertor, astro 5->4 (****ing off old players, new players happy) - increase hulk requirements (old players happy, new players ****ed)
any other viable options?
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Lindsai Muris
Minmatar StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.12.11 19:47:00 -
[10]
The other option is just to leave it how it is... sit in your retriever until you can fly a hulk, then buy a hulk. This way no one is ****ed off except the ones who want to waste extra money on a middle ship.
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Pavachek Secundus
The Serenity Society
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Posted - 2007.12.11 21:38:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Pavachek Secundus on 11/12/2007 21:38:38 Ah, the weekly "wtf is with the Covetor-Hulk training times?" post.
This really boils down to 1 simple question - If you're training to be a Hulk-level miner, why wouldn't you train Astro 5? Trading well under two weeks training time for a 5% base yield increase on any strip miner is a great deal. It certainly seems far more reasonable when compared with the 3% increase for Exhumer 5 or the identical training time for Cyber 5 that's coupled with the steep isk cost of a Michi's/HX-2 pair.
The mining profession does not lend itself to instant-gratification gaming. Pure miners advance much slower than combat pilots and suffer through an extended period of inferior earning potential. However, in the end when you can pull in 4+ cans an hour, all the nickel-and-dime training is totally worth it.
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hellsknights
RennTech SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.12 03:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Velanth With my current stats it takes 35d to fly a covetor and 35d 20h to fly a hulk. Compared to the retriever that I can already fly, the gap between the two barges is huge and once you get there you can already fly a hulk.
I think they should atleast remove the astrogeology 5 from the requirements and even with that it takes 20d to get from retriever to covetor.
Quit complaining and do the time, we all have at soe point trained a long and boring skill.
Damn, the player base grows and all we get are whiners.
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Velanth
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.12.12 14:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: hellsknights
Originally by: Velanth With my current stats it takes 35d to fly a covetor and 35d 20h to fly a hulk. Compared to the retriever that I can already fly, the gap between the two barges is huge and once you get there you can already fly a hulk.
I think they should atleast remove the astrogeology 5 from the requirements and even with that it takes 20d to get from retriever to covetor.
Quit complaining and do the time, we all have at soe point trained a long and boring skill.
Damn, the player base grows and all we get are whiners.
Weow, here I'am posting a simple suggestion and I get labeled as a whiner .
Originally by: Arenis Xemdal Argh, my brain. Buying keyboards should be like buying cigarettes, over 18 with photo ID.
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Kruellagh
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Posted - 2007.12.12 21:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: tehSiner
- reduce skill requirements for covertor, astro 5->4 (****ing off old players, new players happy)
I'm not too sure, players who train for astro 5 will reap the benefits of that skill at lv 5. So while newer players will be happy theres no reason older players should be annoyed
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Fulbert
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Posted - 2007.12.12 22:22:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Fulbert on 12/12/2007 22:26:07 Edited by: Fulbert on 12/12/2007 22:24:15 Retriever -> Covetor : an increase of 50% of your mining income (3 strip miners instead of 2); and I dont count the effect of the Mining Laser Upgrade you can fit on the Covetor - just with Electronics III and a Basic Co-Processor (the Retriever just hasn't enough CPU to do that). 50m3/50Mbits of drones instead of 25... so you can use Medium Drones instead of Light ones!
Covetor -> Hulk : the possibility to tank the highsec rats and to stand against the lowsec ones. More cargohold to do some AFK-mining in highsec when needed... Just a matter of game confort, not a real increase in your income (the 9% bonus caused by Exhumers III apart)
So, retriever->covetor is THE big enhancement in your mining yield, Hulk is a just a matter of security and resistance against ennemies. The skill gap makes sense.
Don't forget there is a 100mil ISK difference between Covetor and Hulk. For a beginner using a Retriever, that represents more than 3 days of mining...
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.12.12 23:26:00 -
[16]
I fly a hulk, but am thinking of setting up a coveter for corp operations so I don't have to move about 200mil isk to the corp hq for the operations. The loss in yield would be offset by the group size, so no real penalty there.
and the cost of outfitting a full T1 fit coveter is a lot less than a hulk.
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Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.13 04:42:00 -
[17]
Covetors aren't bad ships....and they can be used to bring in money a little faster to pay for that Hulk you've been lusting after.
In less than a month, I'll probably be making arrangments to supply some of our little corpies with Covetors so they can mine their tails off and buy some Hulks for themselves. (I may be generous when helping out the newb corpies, but not T2 ship generous )
As for the skills....Exhumers are an addition onto the Mining Barge scene. It used to be that the Covetor was the king of mining, requiring massive skills to fly. I suppose that more skills could have been added to be able to fly an Exhumer, but do we really want to listen to the whines on that idea? _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
rodney119
Gallente Peregrine ammo and arms
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Posted - 2007.12.15 17:13:00 -
[18]
The step between a Covetor and a Hulk may not seem too much (9% at l3 Exhumers, 12% at l4 Exhumers).
I use a Hulk and swear by it. I use T2 strip miners and the T2 crystals and notice a huge difference in mining, power (i can fit 2 MLU's in High sec mining) and tank. I feel much safer mining in one and would recommend it to any miner.
In regards to the skill training, you just have to stop whining and train the skill. I have an alt who is training up for the hulk so I have had to train it up twice.
Rodney119, Director of Corp Production/Manufacturing |
Mudkest
Ekliptika Engineers Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.12.15 17:38:00 -
[19]
Originally by: tehSiner - reduce skill requirements for covertor, astro 5->4 (****ing off old players, new players happy) - increase hulk requirements (old players happy, new players ****ed)
dont understand why old players would be ****ed if theye lowered covetor skill. Maybe the ppl that only jsut been able to fly one for a few weeks, but even then if you're flying a covetor you are serious about mining and you'll want astrology 5 anyway for its 5% mining bonus ----- GIEV custom ship paint jobs! I want my hello-kitty-kessie!
For your safety do not destroy vital testing apparatus |
schmarty pants
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Posted - 2007.12.16 11:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Bhender Does CCP ever do things like that though, reduce the skill requirement for an item?
Indeed they do!
You now only need medium hybrids III instead of IV now to get large hybrids training. You only need level IV in the tier 1 learning skills to train tier 2 learning skills. salvaging has been reduced, etc, etc.
If CCP was to ever lower the skill level required for ships howevever they should and I hope would allow people to gain back those SP and reinvest them in other skills if they so please. Giving new players such a massive leg up isn't fair on those that may have played the game for a few years, but also may have trained that very same skill on low attributes.
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rodney119
Gallente Peregrine ammo and arms
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Posted - 2007.12.16 13:53:00 -
[21]
Older players have already got those skills so it may sem unfair but you benefit from the increased skill benefits from training the skills to the next level if you are an old player, e.g. medium hybrid turret IV gives you an additional 5% damage bonus, etc, etc.
It all comes down to whether the additional skills required for anything still benfit you further than if you trained them to the lower level. Rodney119, Director of Corp Production/Manufacturing |
Lysander Memnos
The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.17 17:44:00 -
[22]
The Hulk is the pinnacle of mining technology. Such a goal is worth the effort, no?
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Greig Tarkunderson
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Posted - 2007.12.18 09:35:00 -
[23]
Hulk/covetor are quite similar, so the small gap makes sense. If you're mining in a place where piracy/ship destruction is common, take a covetor as it's cheaper and insurance pays a higher percentage. If you want the convenience of being able to tank the less friendly rats, it's a tradeoff as you're risking a lot more isk in the event of real pirates attacking.
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Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
The Perfect Harvesting Experience
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Posted - 2007.12.18 11:09:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Shan''Talasha Mea''Questa on 18/12/2007 11:11:44
Originally by: Bhender reducing the requirement of Astro V to Astro IV for the Covetor would make sense in retrosepct.
Does CCP ever do things like that though, reduce the skill requirement for an item?
The first time Tractor Beams were introduced they needed Graviton Physics 1 (which requires Science 5 and Engineering 5. The price of the Graviton Physics skillbooks skyrocketed overnight.
Within a week or two CCP decided it should be available for a larger public and earlier in the game so they changed the requirements to Science 4.
So, yes CCP is known to do things like that if they see the use in it.
Edit: In retrospect... Astrogeo 5 and Barge 4 would be my vote for skill requirement on the Covetor... and Barge 5 is a no brainer for the Exhumers. Both Astrogeo and Barge 4 would be too light and both to 5 is too steep.
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Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
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rodney119
Gallente Peregrine ammo and arms
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Posted - 2007.12.18 16:19:00 -
[25]
Older players should still be happy they already have both skills to level V. They benefit from better mining rate and its one less skill to train. Rodney119, Director of Corp Production/Manufacturing |
arbbaall
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Posted - 2007.12.19 11:21:00 -
[26]
just one option forget for the covector for someone who mining in low secure & don't like test if he lose his hulk for an no desired encounter... a fift who incresase the agility of the ship is an good option... 20m vs 120m make sense in my point of view (but it's just a proposition for futur utilities if you have already a covector) or if you produce the hulk, the covetor is one of the compound of the manufacturing
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Bhender
Amarr PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.12.19 16:41:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lysander Memnos The Hulk is the pinnacle of mining technology. Such a goal is worth the effort, no?
Of course - the question isn't whether the Hulk should take as long as it does (I don't think anyone claims that it should not), it is whether it makes sense for there to be a huge gap between the Retriever and the Coveter, then no gap between the Covetor and the Hulk, which effectively makes the Covetor obsolete, at least in some manner.
Dropping the requirements on the Covetor from Astro 5 to Astro 4 would not **** off old players, at least not based on them wasting any time, since they would not have wasted any time at all - they can still fly the Hulk, which a Covetor newb could not.
It might **** off some older players who get upset anytime newer players might be able to do something they can do, but who cares about them anyway? boohoo, your 20 million SP head start was reduced by some infinitesimal amount, woe is you!
It seem pretty simply to me. There is an obvious progression from Retriever to Covetor to Hulk, and the "steps" between those ought to be somewhat evenly spaced.
Right now it is:
Retriever-----------------------------Covetor--Exhumer
But Retriever----------------Covetor---------------Exhumer
Makes more sense, IMO. And it makes the Hulk even more "special" since there will be some reason, beyond cost, to simply never get one, and plenty of people will not.
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