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ECM and TDs. A bit odd isnt it?

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Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:34:00 - [1] My question is: Why has ecm the longest range of all EW? It is the most powerful EW, there is no doubt about it. Isnt it a bit strange that the most powerful weapon also has the longest range (on the dedicated ships)? Isnt this like giving pulses blaster damage and rails tachyon damage? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:37:00 - [2] I can't believe I am saying this...but I kinda agree with Lyria's thought process _______________
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:38:00 - [3] but it's chance based so that means sometimes it might not work so needs that extra range damps and tracking disrupters work 100% of the time when they are in range... least that sounds like a vaguly reasonable argument for it. I do totally agree with you though they should have the shortest range
Ian Logalus 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Gawain Hill but it's chance based so that means sometimes it might not work so needs that extra range damps and tracking disrupters work 100% of the time when they are in range... least that sounds like a vaguly reasonable argument for it. I do totally agree with you though they should have the shortest range Since last patch you need at least 4 damps or tracking disrupters on 1 target to render it useless compared to a ship which is jammed and with decent skills you don't need more then 2 jammers to jamm a target, maybe 3 if you are unlucky but I agree with the OP here. ECM is not balanced at all, most range and effectiveness on 1 type is phoo.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:42:00 - [5] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 12:43:38 Originally by: Gawain Hill but it's chance based so that means sometimes it might not work so needs that extra range damps and tracking disrupters work 100% of the time when they are in range... least that sounds like a vaguly reasonable argument for it. I do totally agree with you though they should have the shortest range Even if they are chance based, the dedicated ecm-ships utterly jam other ships to crap without any bigger problems. But you know what the problem is with giving them the shortest range. Its that caldari are long ranged so they should have a long range ew. Logically ecm should either go to another race or it should be less effective then the other ew. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Kykio Caldari Megadodo Publications The Sphere Confederation	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:43:00 - [6] Because to be good in ecm it needs all his lows and meds +2rigs for ecm, expect 1 med for mwd and 1 for shield extender. So its only defense is range thats why ecm have to be long range ew.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Kykio Because to be good in ecm it needs all his lows and meds +2rigs for ecm, expect 1 med for mwd and 1 for shield extender. So its only defense is range thats why ecm have to be long range ew. I still think a small nerf of the strength is in order. Also nerf ecm drones and people might use the other ew drones. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:46:00 - [8] and so it started. soon we will be seeing "NERF ECM" threads. --- planetary interaction idea!
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Kykio Because to be good in ecm it needs all his lows and meds +2rigs for ecm, expect 1 med for mwd and 1 for shield extender. So its only defense is range thats why ecm have to be long range ew. I still think a small nerf of the strength is in order. Also nerf ecm drones and people might use the other ew drones. This. In order to be effective at jamming, one needs exception skills and a fully dedicated fitting, forfeiting any tank, speed or tackle capabilities. Originally by: ISD Cortes You're at liberty to use the rolling sig you had, as long as there's no chimeras covering the nether regions of voluptuous females.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Matrixcvd on 11/12/2007 12:50:40 Horse Poo Poo, ECM is the easiestly defeatable with 1 ECCM mid slot. Second, ECM ships tend to be buffered by large fleets, generally speaking you would have to chew through them first to get to all that expensive computer hardware, but in this game all there is, is distance and that provides enough incentive to actually use it. it would be no good if it these ships were with the main fleet all the time, since you pretty much fly tankless and in small numbers. Falcon with a 215km optimal + 55km fall off FTmuthafinW so its what everyone else is saying x 4... and you have your answer.

Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:49:00 - [11] Originally by: Grimpak and so it started. soon we will be seeing "NERF ECM" threads. I just wanted to boost TDs a bit :-( Why cant they jam explosion velocities and radius? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:50:00 - [12] Edited by: Grimpak on 11/12/2007 12:50:45 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Grimpak and so it started. soon we will be seeing "NERF ECM" threads. I just wanted to boost TDs a bit :-( Why cant they jam explosion velocities and radius? and you think that will stop the "OMG NERF!" crowd? "ECM IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN TD'S! NERF ECM!" while it should be "ECM IS MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THE REST OF THE EWAR! BOOST THE OTHER EWAR!" --- planetary interaction idea!
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 12:52:00 - [13] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 11/12/2007 12:53:16 Originally by: Matrixcvd Horse Poo Poo, ECM is the easiestly defeatable with 1 ECCM mid slot. Second, ECM ships tend to be buffered by large fleets, generally speaking you would have to chew through them first to get to all that expensive computer hardware, but in this game all there is, is distance and that provides enough incentive to actually use it. it would be no good if it these ships were with the main fleet all the time, since you pretty much fly tankless and in small numbers. Falcon with a 215km optimal + 55km fall off FTmuthafinW Yeah but ECCM is a total waste if youre not encountering a ecm ship. Sensboosters work against Damps BUT they are also useful for other stuff. Tracking Comps work against TDs BUT they are also useful for other stuff. Also TDs dont kills you ability to shoot missiles, use drones or lock your opponent to use ew on him Damps atleast give you a chance of getting closer and locking ECM just kills you. No Im sorry, there is more then a slight imbalance between the racial EW. The fix would be to give TDs a boost. They should work on missiles aswell. Problem solved. Theyd be inline with damps. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Trigos Trilobi Man-Eating Village Idiots	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer My question is: Why has ecm the longest range of all EW? It is the most powerful EW, there is no doubt about it. Isnt it a bit strange that the most powerful weapon also has the longest range (on the dedicated ships)? Isnt this like giving pulses blaster damage and rails tachyon damage? If damps would have 250km range, they'd be 100% 'jam' for sniper engagements, same goes for tracking disruptors through reducing the optimal. In fact believe someone posted maths few months back that damps at ~ 150km range had better chance of 'jamming' than ecm due to damps being chancebased in falloff but I can't remember the exact details so things aren't as simple as they seem even now :)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Trigos Trilobi Originally by: Lyria Skydancer My question is: Why has ecm the longest range of all EW? It is the most powerful EW, there is no doubt about it. Isnt it a bit strange that the most powerful weapon also has the longest range (on the dedicated ships)? Isnt this like giving pulses blaster damage and rails tachyon damage? If damps would have 250km range, they'd be 100% 'jam' for sniper engagements, same goes for tracking disruptors through reducing the optimal. In fact believe someone posted maths few months back that damps at ~ 150km range had better chance of 'jamming' than ecm due to damps being chancebased in falloff but I can't remember the exact details so things aren't as simple as they seem even now :) TDs still suck. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Kykio Caldari Megadodo Publications The Sphere Confederation	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:08:00 - [16] Edited by: Kykio on 11/12/2007 13:11:24 Oh forgot to say but only racial ecm has huge range, multi type use more cap has less range and less strength. Therefor most jammers use racial ones which only good for one race at a time. And eccm gives +80-96% sensor strenght which nearly halves the chance of ecm success. Sensor booster and Tracking comp gives +50-60% which only decreas to about 65% percent of damp and TD efficiency.
Kermis Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:09:00 - [17] NERF ECM!!! Oh, no, wait, BUFF THE OTHERS!! -- Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Kykio Oh forgot to say but only racial ecm has huge range, multi type use more cap has less range and less strength. Therefor most jammers use racial ones which only good for one race at a time. Thats why you have 7 mid slots. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Grimpak and so it started. soon we will be seeing "NERF ECM" threads. I just wanted to boost TDs a bit :-( Why cant they jam explosion velocities and radius? Because that's the only reason they're not overpowered. At least, that was the case before trinity (They didn't really need that nerf IMO). 2 TDs were enought to really screw up a turret based ship. The only reason they weren't totally awesome was 'everyone' doing binary state propulsion with high speed nanoships, and missiles not being affected. I always figured ECM being long range was entirely consistent with 'not dying' when you're trying to do ewar, on a specialised ship that does one thing. Realistically, you need to give over about 8 slots to ECMs, to make it actually worth using. And that's on a ship that otherwise does no dps, and is made of tinfoil, so is tanking by 'being really far away'. I don't see this as a problem. 2 TDs on the other hand, are eminently good 'supplemental EW' - some ships are more effected by the tracking penalty, and others by the optimal. That said, I think the Trinity nerf to TDs was ludicrous. It's not like they were overused _before_, and they're worse now. If anything, TDs needed a 'bit more'. Maybe not more optimal (because 'certain' optimal squashing at sniper ranges is really harsh) but ... more range overall. Quite why the felt the need to reduce the effectiveness of them, but at the same time, cut in half what they did (although to be fair, that's not actually all that major - typically you want _either_ tracking _or_ optimal). shrug. I'd like to see TDs on significantly more falloff. 50km ish would be good I think - so it'd be 48 optimal, 50km falloff, before the range skills giving 50% on both, to make 75ish optimal, 75ish falloff, for a 50% effectiveness at 150km. It remains the case though, that a cruiser cannot hit a webbed frigate, that's orbiting it with a TD operational (at 500m). I don't know if that's the case with larger ships too, but I wouldn't be too suprised if it was. That's really rather potent, IMO. Guess it depends a bit. ECMs you see, are long range, and good at 'shooting down' - you do more to smaller ships, than bigger ships. TDs work better the 'other way around' - as a smaller ship going after a larger, actually a TD is really effective at not getting hurt. I'd be almost tempted to suggest turning TDs into 'inverse target painters' - global signature reduction, so effectively tracking reduction against all the hostiles. But that's really change their function, so maybe not. I agree. TDs need love. I'm less convinced they need to necessarily be taking on the ECM 'niche' of long range, chance based ewar. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:13:00 - [20] Hey that inversed TP is pretty cool idea there. That would actually bring them inline with damps and ecm, because that would work against everything aswell, drones, turrets, missiles. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:17:00 - [21] First ECM is one of the variety of tools CCP has provided us to combat blob tactics on top of being effective for small roaming ganksquads. But its more important to use these ships in full fleet setups than anything to help smaller fleets fight larger ones. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah but ECCM is a total waste if youre not encountering a ecm ship. Second Sounds like you need to rethink the importance of ECCM, do you fly a drake with 6 hardners? Do you want to be able to shoot in any circumstance? Do you think about a balanced setup or just a killmail generating gankopwnmobile? Third, ECM does everything to missile boats and better than TD's. TD's can be effectively used by most ships, although there are better bonus ships, it still effective unlike ECM. EWAR is a role, and so are the ships that use them. You give up alot to fly these ships and so if they don't fit your play style doesn't mean they are bad. I think you need to fly one before you make judgements based on 1. Getting jammed and killed 2. getting jammed and not getting a kill 3. looking at bonuses and thinking, OMG thats why 1, and 2 happened 4. Determining from 1,2,3 that ECM is overpowered
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:44:00 - [22] The OP has a good point... And "science wise" it would be much more logical for ECM modules to have bigger fall-off than optimal range, as sensor strength is proven to be affected by range way more e.g. any kind of friction can limit a projectile's speed or limit a lasers range IN SPACE ffs! As most ships with bonuses for ECM get an optimal range increase anyways, this wouldn't make it less useful in most cases of specialized ships using them. In fact both TD's and ECM should get an optimal/falloff balance more like the Dampeners have now. E.g. fall off is something like 2x the optimal, but the latter should not exceed say 30km without bonuses. I am he, the bornless one
Lagerstars Caldari Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.12.11 13:50:00 - [23] Boost the others or nerf the EW whatever - you wont ever please everyone. Nerf EW fine - boost its tank then, not much fun having a paper ship for chance based warfare - miss a cycle and pop. Be interesting to compare the tank of a caldari EW boat to that of other races... ----------------------------------------- - This space intentionally left blank -
Ancy Denaries Caldari Isseras Manufacture	Posted - 2007.12.11 14:00:00 - [24] And, I know I'm gonna get killed for this, Caldari has (RP wise) the most advanced sensor technology availible and the highest tech level next to the Jove. But, who the heck cares about rp these days anyway...
velmistr Ecco Caldari InNova Tech Inc Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.12.11 14:16:00 - [25] ECM can be countred not only by ECCM and projected ECCM. SOmetimes FOFs will help - but only in a very small gang. Rigs for EW decreas shields. Most ECM dedicated ships have near zero dps (griffin, falcon, blackbird). I believe that slight ECM nerf will solve a lot of things. ECCM - it is always gamble if you take it or not, same as if you fit hardeners for specific damage or omni tank. Just my 2 cents (little messed up).
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 14:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Lagerstars Boost the others or nerf the EW whatever - you wont ever please everyone. Nerf EW fine - boost its tank then, not much fun having a paper ship for chance based warfare - miss a cycle and pop. Be interesting to compare the tank of a caldari EW boat to that of other races... Hmm...nice thought... Please, compare - say the Force Recon class... Why is the Rook unfavored? It has nice resistances and can work 100% its DPS AND ewar further than any other ship in it's class...PG and CPU are also "generous" and balanced compared to other recons The ships are fine. It's just that the major changes on some modules make ppl jealous I am he, the bornless one
Neuromandis	Posted - 2007.12.11 14:24:00 - [27] Edited by: Neuromandis on 11/12/2007 14:25:35 I think ECM is just fine. It is RSD's and TD's that are not at the moment (in fact the jury (myself) is still out on RSD's, but I have absolutely no doubt that TD's need a boost). Bu yes, it is correct that if TD's had long optimal range, they would be OMGWTFUBERPWN to snipers and long range craft in general. So give them better falloff, problem solved. If a max-skilled, double falloff-rigged, range-scripted TD on a curse would get a tracking disrupt at 200km 20% of the time, all would be fine. If it sounds too litle, remember that it would practically mean halving the range of 6 targets at 50km (rendering them useless) or 3 targets at 100-150km, it would work fine. I would say optimal 30km fallof 60km, same strength. Numbers may vary I'm not really checking them out in detail. But it sure sounds like a big falloff is what tracking disruptors need... --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.11 14:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Lagerstars Boost the others or nerf the EW whatever - you wont ever please everyone. Nerf EW fine - boost its tank then, not much fun having a paper ship for chance based warfare - miss a cycle and pop. Be interesting to compare the tank of a caldari EW boat to that of other races... There is none, if you want to be effective at jamming you will have 1 SBII, and all your mids are filled with jammers, which means no shield tank. Some people would but a 800mm plate in the low, but you take away your SDAII's and you aren't gonna be repping armor efficiently its just there as a buffer so you can warp out.
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2007.12.11 14:40:00 - [29] Problem I have with ECM(EW in general) is it's no fun to fight against. Sitting in your ship permajammed is boring, this is a game and it's meant to be fun. I always thought it was odd that EW was in your midslots despite it clearly being an offensive weapon.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.12.11 15:02:00 - [30] Because the ships that use ECM have no means of a viable tank aside from being out a long range. Thread over. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.



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