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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
757
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 11:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
I lost a similarly fit Scimitar to an arty Maelstrom once - but to be fair I was already at half shields by the time he locked me up. I was busy playing station games and didn't have the necessary transversal to make him miss. IMO it was more of a derp on my part than it being a particularly good counter to the fit on an open battlefield... but its definitely something to keep an eye out for.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
43
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 11:56:00 -
[62] - Quote
Liang has derps, shock horror :P
Wow, we mega Delayed this thread, TLDR;
Mega Uber Shiny Slaved Faction BS
Carrier Maybe if you feel brave enough (may incur the wrath of the Hotdrop)
I would say Vulture/Damnation depending on fleet comp, or maybe a Claymore for the pure sexy factor. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
81
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 15:31:00 -
[63] - Quote
I would pick up a cheap Navy Scorpion, Fleet Typhoon or Navy Armageddon. Fit them with mostly T2 but maybe a few cheap faction mods to increase survivability... Jump in as bait and make sure you have some good backup. If you have as much isk you say you can repeat this a lot even if you get blobbed once or twice.
If you really insisted on something hugely expensive just get something that offers more than pure dps. Vindicator and Bhaalgorn are all capable of dps, tank and some good utility for a fleet and besides a few faction eanm's, a faction web and maybe a few faction neuts they don't really require a lot of faction modules to work.
With a good set of implants you will actually feel you are getting something for your isk... |
axxeessee
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 22:24:00 -
[64] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:Guardian needs to be in groups to be effective, its sig tank combined with EHP is nice, like 65+ EHP with legion bonus and around 65M Sig Rad with Loki bonus is pretty damn fine.
Apparently the Onieros no longer sucks though. I dunno, I'd say both the Ony and the Scim still suck. The Scim sucks because its just utterly outclassed by the Basi (even in the one niche where you would REALLY expect it to succeed) and the Ony sucks because the Guardian just works better for the blob warfare that you normally see armor rolling in. I blame the tracking link bonus, but I understand its really popular for people who need to shave another 15 seconds off their next Incursion NCO. -Liang
The Scimis real purpose/niche is nanofleets.
Try to bring a Basi to a nanofleet and youll understand why youre a straight up ******.
Of course the basi is better for gatecamping in lowsec like the little wussy that you are. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
759
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 22:55:00 -
[65] - Quote
axxeessee wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:Guardian needs to be in groups to be effective, its sig tank combined with EHP is nice, like 65+ EHP with legion bonus and around 65M Sig Rad with Loki bonus is pretty damn fine.
Apparently the Onieros no longer sucks though. I dunno, I'd say both the Ony and the Scim still suck. The Scim sucks because its just utterly outclassed by the Basi (even in the one niche where you would REALLY expect it to succeed) and the Ony sucks because the Guardian just works better for the blob warfare that you normally see armor rolling in. I blame the tracking link bonus, but I understand its really popular for people who need to shave another 15 seconds off their next Incursion NCO. -Liang The Scimis real purpose/niche is nanofleets. Try to bring a Basi to a nanofleet and youll understand why youre a straight up ******. Of course the basi is better for gatecamping in lowsec like the little wussy that you are.
Comments: - Why yes, I do believe I've said that the Scim is superior if your entire fleet is in Cynabals and they have no idea how to stay in the 140km diameter sphere you can affect. - I don't gate camp, and really nobody in the "late night crew" does.
-Linag Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cambarus
Socially Awkward Pancreas
124
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 02:42:00 -
[66] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Comments: - Why yes, I do believe I've said that the Scim is superior if your entire fleet is in Cynabals and they have no idea how to stay in the 140km diameter sphere you can affect. - I don't gate camp, and really nobody in the "late night crew" does. -Linag TBH that sounds a lot like something you would say, being a solo logi pilot who likes to fly in small gangs. As gangs get bigger, and people spread out more, and logis tend to like flying away from the guys trying to shoot them, it is quite easy for someone to slip out of the 70km range mark.
Also since I'm sure you've flown logis enough to know that you should pretty much never be closer to the opposing fleet than the guys doing the actual shooting, so I'm definitely going to have to call you out on using the diameter to refer to your range to make the number bigger
Also calling you out on pretending cynabals are the only things that can outrun a basi. Hell A basi with one nano moves slower than a zealot with the plates removed. Any sort of nano gang will have the basi lagging behind, and while this may not seem like much of a hindrance at the gang sizes in which you operate, on a larger scale it can get annoying, fast.
The scimi is ~40% faster than the basi (before getting into the extra lows and the potential for more nanos). If you can't see why that would be useful then fine, don't use it, but stop acting like things always work the way they do in your small lowsec gangs. 4 people staying in range of 1 logi is easy, 100 staying in range of 20 separate logis is less so. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
761
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 03:46:00 -
[67] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:TBH that sounds a lot like something you would say, being a solo logi pilot who likes to fly in small gangs. As gangs get bigger, and people spread out more, and logis tend to like flying away from the guys trying to shoot them, it is quite easy for someone to slip out of the 70km range mark. Also since I'm sure you've flown logis enough to know that you should pretty much never be closer to the opposing fleet than the guys doing the actual shooting, so I'm definitely going to have to call you out on using the diameter to refer to your range to make the number bigger Also calling you out on pretending cynabals are the only things that can outrun a basi. Hell A basi with one nano moves slower than a zealot with the plates removed. Any sort of nano gang will have the basi lagging behind, and while this may not seem like much of a hindrance at the gang sizes in which you operate, on a larger scale it can get annoying, fast.
Ok, here's the deal: you stop "calling me out" about areas of the game you literally nothing about and I won't "call you out" on areas of the game I know literally nothing about. If the engagement happens on a gate, I will be on that gate - regardless of if the entire enemy fleet is there. If it happens at a belt I'll dangle my Basi right in someone's face if that means they stay still long enough for someone to land a tackle on them.
Small gang PVP is utterly different than the kind of **** you're used to.
Really, its not about outrunning the Basi - its about how large the "effective battlefield" is. When everyone's going 1500 m/s it takes a lot longer to cross that 70-140km than it does if everyone's rolling along at 5km/s. Another neat trick that you can take advantage of is on-grid warping, which works most of the time that your gang really gets spread out. The reason I keep falling back to the Cynabal is because: A) The Vagabond is obsolete. B) The Cynabal is the most common nano cruiser C) The Basi works fine with nano canes and most nano HACs
Quote: The scimi is ~40% faster than the basi (before getting into the extra lows and the potential for more nanos). If you can't see why that would be useful then fine, don't use it, but stop acting like things always work the way they do in your small lowsec gangs. 4 people staying in range of 1 logi is easy, 100 staying in range of 20 separate logis is less so.
Comments: - I haven't said anything about active tanking a logi in a 100+ man fleet. In fact, I'd say that's pretty pants on head stupid - though its not something I do so I may be wrong. (I doubt it). And considering the entire discussion has centered around small gangs (Definitely < 20) it seems like talking about 120+ man fleets is just throwing **** against a wall to see if it sticks. - I have talked about running the Basi against 10-15 man gangs successfully. Which is a damn sight more than the "4" you keep claiming. Remember, its not just about how big your gang is, but also the one you're facing. - You keep throwing that "low sec" bullshit out there and fail to realize (despite me telling you repeatedly) that the I used it in low sec as well as wormhole space and even 0.0. The mechanics that make the Basi superior to the Scim extend across pretty much all small gangs. - Yes, the Scimitar is faster. However, if you rig it up to the point that you can actually keep up with all those nano HACs that you keep talking about, your ability to rep is total ****. I know - I used to run those fits.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 09:49:00 -
[68] - Quote
I leave for a night and look what happens :P
Liang likes the Basi, I can see why, it reps well and tanks well.
Other people like the Scimi because its fast, which is a virtue all of its own, they both have there strengths and weaknesses.
In larger nano fleets the Scimi is generally accepted as better due to the nature of fast moving nano warfare.
The Guardian is similar to the Basi but its popular because armour ships are slower than shield ships, so there speed and interdependancy are less of an issue, the Basi is less popular because interdependancy and sluggishness are incompatable with the general layouts of shield gangs (Speed and Gank).
Lets just agree to disagree here gents/ladies, before we delay this thread any further. |
Alara IonStorm
1544
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 10:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote: Lets just agree to disagree here gents/ladies, before we delay this thread any further.
I have been on this forum for 3 Years and have never seen this statement...
What does it mean? Are we Agreeing to Argue more? Is this some sort of low blow that works on the meta level?
I have never seen this type of response. It almost seems like you are trying to make some kind of peace or mutual understanding here...
As I said I just don't get it? |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 10:32:00 -
[70] - Quote
Mutual understanding and respesct is something never seen on this forum before but lets give it a go this once, see what its like. |
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Versuvius Marii
Browncoats of Persephone Ironworks Coalition
35
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 13:07:00 -
[71] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:just don't really see the point in the Basi its an honest question. Confirming CVA have no use for Logistics. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 13:18:00 -
[72] - Quote
Versuvius Marii wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:just don't really see the point in the Basi its an honest question. Confirming CVA have no use for Logistics.
Confirming we don't make heavy use of Guardians |
Cambarus
Socially Awkward Pancreas
124
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 17:44:00 -
[73] - Quote
Forums ate my page long reply :(
TL;DR: -Never said anything about active tanking in large fleets. -As fleet sizes go up, the importance of applying your reps becomes more important than the amount of reps applied (see: blasters in large fleets) -Most of the game thinks the scimi is a good ship (see ships most flown in pvp) There was probably more, but **** these forums. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
764
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 18:19:00 -
[74] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Forums ate my page long reply :(
TL;DR: -Never said anything about active tanking in large fleets. -As fleet sizes go up, the importance of applying your reps becomes more important than the amount of reps applied (see: blasters in large fleets) -Most of the game thinks the scimi is a good ship (see ships most flown in pvp) There was probably more, but **** these forums.
Comments: - The entire conversation is around 5-20 man fleets. You bringing up 120+ man fleets is you bringing up 120 man fleets without any context to the conversation. Congratulations for muddying the conversation for no ******* reason. - Yay, more talk about huge fleets. I've found that getting reps there faster isn't very useful if you don't have enough reps - but that's a natural effect of running in "small gangs" (which you apparently classify as less than 120-150 man?) - Most of the game believes lots of **** that's just wrong - but the reality of the situation is that most of the game doesn't have experience running logis. And furthermore, most of the game doesn't have experience running the sole logi in a small gang (regardless of system sec). Thus - really, most of the game is working off of folk wisdom that's never been challenged. - I can at least agree with that. **** these forums.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Cambarus
Socially Awkward Pancreas
124
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 18:45:00 -
[75] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Cambarus wrote:Forums ate my page long reply :(
TL;DR: -Never said anything about active tanking in large fleets. -As fleet sizes go up, the importance of applying your reps becomes more important than the amount of reps applied (see: blasters in large fleets) -Most of the game thinks the scimi is a good ship (see ships most flown in pvp) There was probably more, but **** these forums. Comments: - The entire conversation is around 5-20 man fleets. You bringing up 120+ man fleets is you bringing up 120 man fleets without any context to the conversation. Congratulations for muddying the conversation for no ******* reason. - Yay, more talk about huge fleets. I've found that getting reps there faster isn't very useful if you don't have enough reps - but that's a natural effect of running in "small gangs" (which you apparently classify as less than 120-150 man?) - Most of the game believes lots of **** that's just wrong - but the reality of the situation is that most of the game doesn't have experience running logis. And furthermore, most of the game doesn't have experience running the sole logi in a small gang (regardless of system sec). Thus - really, most of the game is working off of folk wisdom that's never been challenged. - I can at least agree with that. **** these forums. -Liang I kinda prefer this condensed way of posting, might have to do it more often :D Comments of my own: -I don't really consider 5 man gangs to be fleets -I never said that anything smaller than 120 counts as small, stop putting words in my mouth. (for the record I'd say about 20 and under counts as small for the purposes of debate, though I myself would define it as 10 or less) -When the basis of the claim that most of the game thinks scimis are fine is the sheer number of people flying them, your argument that this is because they have no experience flying the ships that they're flying loses a fair bit of its validity. |
Valoche Mrehl
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
11
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:07:00 -
[76] - Quote
Stop arguing with Liang. It's pointless.
Clearly (s)he's been blessed with insight by MOTHER AMAMAKE. Making comments in contrast to Liang's is just ignorant.
"we play at the same time... come kill me... blah blah blah" "scimis are faster so better... blah blah blah"
It's all BALDERDASH!
You fight in Amamake or it's just practice. You use solo-basi's in small gangs or you're a newb-plebian-sheep-boy.
Small gangs are defined as <20. This **** is in Merriam-webster AND Oxford. Don't be so ignorant
RESPECT LIANG! RESPECT HERETICS! RESPECT MOTHER AMAMAKE! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
764
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 19:21:00 -
[77] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:I kinda prefer this condensed way of posting, might have to do it more often :D
There's a reason I switched to it. It saves me time and you don't lose too much in translation. The real problem comes across in you appearing really "cold fish" and kinda like a **** for enumerating points about why someone's an idiot.
Quote: Comments of my own: -I don't really consider 5 man gangs to be fleets -I never said that anything smaller than 120 counts as small, stop putting words in my mouth. (for the record I'd say about 20 and under counts as small for the purposes of debate, though I myself would define it as 10 or less) -When the basis of the claim that most of the game thinks scimis are fine is the sheer number of people flying them, your argument that this is because they have no experience flying the ships that they're flying loses a fair bit of its validity.
Ok, well obviously the discussion revolves around "small gangs". Any commentary regarding 120 man nano gangs (seriously, wtf?) is at best off topic and muddying the water unnecessarily. Are you done talking about blobs yet?
As to the meat of the point, the graph looks something like this:
(Group A) LOTS OF PEOPLE -> (Group B) Some people fly logis sometimes (this is you) -> (Group C) Even fewer people fly logis in small gangs -> (Group D) Almost nobody flies solo logis in small gangs (this is me)
My points: - Group A sometimes interfaces with Group B who got their opinions years ago from Group C. Most people in Group A and Group B (and most of group C) don't even believe that Group D exists. - Most people (in all groups) believe that the Basilisk requires a cap buddy and is "too interdependent" to ever operate in Group D. However, the Basi reps more, tanks more, is fast enough, and has superior utility (6th high). It additionally does not require a cap buddy.
The overall effect? Everyone flies Scims out of ignorance.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Ireland VonVicious
Gurista Saints Assassin Confederacy
32
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 21:13:00 -
[78] - Quote
My three favorite options:
Rattlesnake: Good for shield fleets as a support ship. Has huge health can put on a rr/neut and still put out some dps or any other kind of drone EW based on the fight. Unmatched versatility.
Field command ship: The name says it all. get a warefare link, dps, tank and last the fight.
Bhalgore: Good for armor fleets. Neuts,dps,health/tank. It has some versatility but is still more direct combat focused then a RS.
If those don't work for you just grab any high health / high dps ship. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
54
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 23:52:00 -
[79] - Quote
Wow, we really can't drop the issue I succinctly summed up already.
Le sigh. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
766
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 00:24:00 -
[80] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Wow, we really can't drop the issue I succinctly summed up already.
Le sigh.
This debate has been going for a year. He's just as stupid now as he was then - except then he had the advantage of being simply ignorant and bullheaded.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
57
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Posted - 2012.02.09 09:48:00 -
[81] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Danny John-Peter wrote:Wow, we really can't drop the issue I succinctly summed up already.
Le sigh. This debate has been going for a year. He's just as stupid now as he was then - except then he had the advantage of being simply ignorant and bullheaded. -Liang
I loled, not best friends then.
Personally I think the Basi fit Liang put up, after some explanation of its purpose, is an interesting twist.
Its all opinion and conjecture because theres a million different factors as everybody well knows, everything has a purpose, I mean jeeze, we used an Onieros last night, and it worked. |
axxeessee
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 22:09:00 -
[82] - Quote
Love how Liang keeps trashing people because they ''dont know areas of the game as much as he does'', yet he clearly never left a gate with his logi and doesnt come close to having a clue how a nano-gang works.
A nanogang can often pull out fights going on ranges of multiple hundred KM, your basi will obviously be very useful for this right ?
Face the truth, the only thing that fit is good for is baiting fights ''oh look i have no logi --- suddenly decloak'' and fighting stuff you know you can smash close to a gate.
Bringing a Basi to a real nanogang is pure suicide, the gang will drop away and your basi will get popped on gate OR youll try to follow them and cap out in a second.
Scimmy is a billion times better then Basi for any nano-fleet, period. Basi is great for two things, big gangs where you have multiple basis (higher reps), or being a ****** in amamake. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
774
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 22:18:00 -
[83] - Quote
axxeessee wrote:Love how Liang keeps trashing people because they ''dont know areas of the game as much as he does'', yet he clearly never left a gate with his logi and doesnt come close to having a clue how a nano-gang works.
A nanogang can often pull out fights going on ranges of multiple hundred KM, your basi will obviously be very useful for this right ?
Face the truth, the only thing that fit is good for is baiting fights ''oh look i have no logi --- suddenly decloak'' and fighting stuff you know you can smash close to a gate.
Bringing a Basi to a real nanogang is pure suicide, the gang will drop away and your basi will get popped on gate OR youll try to follow them and cap out in a second.
Scimmy is a billion times better then Basi for any nano-fleet, period. Basi is great for two things, big gangs where you have multiple basis (higher reps), or being a ****** in amamake.
A few comments: - I've repeatedly stated that the only time a Scim is better than a Basi is when you're chasing Cynabals that are hell bent on running all over the battlefield. - I've repeatedly seen 10 man BS fleets refuse to engage a 4 BC + Basi fleet even when the 4 BCs were taking sentry fire. They're much more willing to engage 10 BS vs 4 BC though... so yes, the ability to disguise yourself is acutally kinda important if you want to get fights. - In the time period I'm discussing, I was still the CEO of Parsec Flux. We lived in a WH and roamed whereever our WH took us to that day. One day we'd be in Molden Heath and the next in Aridia, then Fountain and the Great Wildlands. - I put out quite a few PVP videos these days, and claiming I don't know anything about nano fleets is pretty hilarious given we run at least one nano fleet in every one of the videos. ;-)
Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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axxeessee
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 22:27:00 -
[84] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:axxeessee wrote:Love how Liang keeps trashing people because they ''dont know areas of the game as much as he does'', yet he clearly never left a gate with his logi and doesnt come close to having a clue how a nano-gang works.
A nanogang can often pull out fights going on ranges of multiple hundred KM, your basi will obviously be very useful for this right ?
Face the truth, the only thing that fit is good for is baiting fights ''oh look i have no logi --- suddenly decloak'' and fighting stuff you know you can smash close to a gate.
Bringing a Basi to a real nanogang is pure suicide, the gang will drop away and your basi will get popped on gate OR youll try to follow them and cap out in a second.
Scimmy is a billion times better then Basi for any nano-fleet, period. Basi is great for two things, big gangs where you have multiple basis (higher reps), or being a ****** in amamake. A few comments: - I've repeatedly stated that the only time a Scim is better than a Basi is when you're chasing Cynabals that are hell bent on running all over the battlefield. - I've repeatedly seen 10 man BS fleets refuse to engage a 4 BC + Basi fleet even when the 4 BCs were taking sentry fire. They're much more willing to engage 10 BS vs 4 BC though... so yes, the ability to disguise yourself is acutally kinda important if you want to get fights. - In the time period I'm discussing, I was still the CEO of Parsec Flux. We lived in a WH and roamed whereever our WH took us to that day. One day we'd be in Molden Heath and the next in Aridia, then Fountain and the Great Wildlands. - I put out quite a few PVP videos these days, and claiming I don't know anything about nano fleets is pretty hilarious given we run at least one nano fleet in every one of the videos. ;-) Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid. :) -Liang
Yet your posts keep on proving to everyone that you havent got close to any clue what a real nanofleet is. There is no way in hell a basi will keep up with any kind of well executed nanocane or nanodrake gang, sitting on a gate is just not an option if you have any clue of what you are doing since nanofleets often have to pull out 200k to 300k range and drag it out, the basi just cannot do that.
In a nanofleet you need your fleet to be in between your logi and the ennemy, as such you need a ship able to keep up, only the scimmy can do that, and im not even talking about chasing after cynabals or anything, im clearly only talking about burn offs where the ennemy tackle is thrown at you and you dispatch it.
Im sure the ability to bait people is very important in getting fights, its still baiting, and I dont see how it is in any way an argument to prove that basis are better then scimmies, I can slap a cloak on my scimmy too.
The fact you roamed around Eve and produced PVP videos isnt going to change my opinion, you clearly have no ******* clue what a nanofleet does if your idea of an optimal nanofleet logi is a basi staying on 0 of the gate while the fleet tries to stay within 70k.
tldr : never said your fit is bad, but the scimmy HAS an important place in the game which you clearly dont understand
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
775
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 22:40:00 -
[85] - Quote
axxeessee wrote: Yet your posts keep on proving to everyone that you havent got close to any clue what a real nanofleet is. There is no way in hell a basi will keep up with any kind of well executed nanocane or nanodrake gang, sitting on a gate is just not an option if you have any clue of what you are doing since nanofleets often have to pull out 200k to 300k range and drag it out, the basi just cannot do that.
What this tells me is that your fleet mates are **** at shaping a battlefield. If its the nano ships goal to stay within range of a basi, they can do it. Furthermore, you'd be amazed at how often you can make use of on-grid warping to keep reps flowing to people even hundreds of km apart - or to regroup your fleet and gank someone that you pulled away from their fleet mates.
At any rate, I've repeatedly stated that the Scimitar is superior for this kind of fleet - though it does so at an extremely heavy cost to cap and RR amount. Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid.
Quote: Im sure the ability to bait people is very important in getting fights, its still baiting, and I dont see how it is in any way an argument to prove that basis are better then scimmies, I can slap a cloak on my scimmy too.
You can slap a cloak on your Scim, but now you have at best 3 RR to the Basi's 5 RR. Now you're jumping into an enemy for a close range brawl and the one Basi is worth almost two scimitars. Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid.
Quote: The fact you roamed around Eve and produced PVP videos isnt going to change my opinion, you clearly have no ******* clue what a nanofleet does if your idea of an optimal nanofleet logi is a basi staying on 0 of the gate while the fleet tries to stay within 70k.
You're putting words in my mouth because you don't understand what I'm saying. Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid.
Quote:tldr : never said your fit is bad, but the scimmy HAS an important place in the game which you clearly dont understand
No... you just don't know how to read. Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Orcirk
The Baros Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.02.11 01:19:00 -
[86] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:axxeessee wrote: Yet your posts keep on proving to everyone that you havent got close to any clue what a real nanofleet is. There is no way in hell a basi will keep up with any kind of well executed nanocane or nanodrake gang, sitting on a gate is just not an option if you have any clue of what you are doing since nanofleets often have to pull out 200k to 300k range and drag it out, the basi just cannot do that.
What this tells me is that your fleet mates are **** at shaping a battlefield. If its the nano ships goal to stay within range of a basi, they can do it. Furthermore, you'd be amazed at how often you can make use of on-grid warping to keep reps flowing to people even hundreds of km apart - or to regroup your fleet and gank someone that you pulled away from their fleet mates. The nano ships goal is to stay in range of the PRIMARY. It falls to the LOGI to make sure the fleet members stay in range of reps.
Also, you're not a very good liar:
Liang Nuren wrote: At any rate, I've repeatedly stated that the Scimitar is superior for this kind of fleet - though it does so at an extremely heavy cost to cap and RR amount. Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid.
Liang Nuren wrote: - I've repeatedly stated that the only time a Scim is better than a Basi is when you're chasing Cynabals that are hell bent on running all over the battlefield.
Liang Nuren wrote: A) The Vagabond is obsolete. B) The Cynabal is the most common nano cruiser C) The Basi works fine with nano canes and most nano HACs
Since I can't put any more quotes in this post:
You're putting words in my mouth because you don't understand what I'm saying. Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid.
-Liang
You said that the scimi is only useful for fleets of cynabals, and not for any other sort of nano gang. You DID say that it was the fleets job to stay within range of the logi, rather than the other way around. axe told you that you're completely wrong, and now you're telling him that he's putting words in your mouth. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
775
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Posted - 2012.02.11 03:41:00 -
[87] - Quote
Orcirk wrote:The nano ships goal is to stay in range of the PRIMARY. It falls to the LOGI to make sure the fleet members stay in range of reps.
You cannot possibly justify this logic. The way nano fleets roll (even as Axxe puts it), the fleet will basically be scattering and trying to split the much larger blob apart. There's literally no way you can require the logi to be repping people hundreds of km apart. I'm watching some fraps of some of our more recent (logiless) nano gangs and there's people anywhere from 50-500km from me. You cannot fault a logi pilot for failing to rep two people taking damage so far apart.
That's not to excuse a logi pilot that hangs out at the very edge of the fight and can't rep anyone on the other half of the field... but then again I think its been pretty clear that's not what I've been talking about. Generally speaking, if your nano fleet is half way competent they can shape the battlefield and stay anywhere within a 70km sphere of your logi ship - especially if your logi ship is located at the heart of the fight. And ultimately, that's the way you're going to get reps on everyone no matter where they are on the battlefield.
On the flip side, if you've got 4-5 Scimitars covering a 20-30 man nano fleet, you could reasonably expect them to be able to rep along the periphery of a fight. But thats not what I've been talking about, now is it?
Quote:Also, you're not a very good liar: Quote:C) The Basi works fine with nano canes and most nano HACs ... You said that the scimi is only useful for fleets of cynabals, and not for any other sort of nano gang. You DID say that it was the fleets job to stay within range of the logi, rather than the other way around. axe told you that you're completely wrong, and now you're telling him that he's putting words in your mouth.
The Basi does work fine with slower nano HACs, and I've made pretty extensive use of it with Vagacanes, Nano Bingers, Nano Drakes, NOmens, Phantasms, Nano Deimos, and a whole host of other ships. It all boils down to your fleet knowing where the fight is and not wholesale running from it.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Orcirk
The Baros Syndicate
0
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Posted - 2012.02.11 04:26:00 -
[88] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
You cannot possibly justify this logic. The way nano fleets roll (even as Axxe puts it), the fleet will basically be scattering and trying to split the much larger blob apart. There's literally no way you can require the logi to be repping people hundreds of km apart. I'm watching some fraps of some of our more recent (logiless) nano gangs and there's people anywhere from 50-500km from me. You cannot fault a logi pilot for failing to rep two people taking damage so far apart.
By that logic why even bring a logi in the first place? Of COURSE you can't rep targets that are 500km apart, but the exact distance between targets where you CAN rep them goes up as the speed of your own ship increases. If you and I are in logis in a nano fleet and you bring a basi and I bring a scimi, there will be far more people onto whom I can get my reps before they die than you. THAT is the advantage offered by better speeds.
Liang Nuren wrote:The Basi does work fine with slower nano HACs, and I've made pretty extensive use of it with Vagacanes, Nano Bingers, Nano Drakes, NOmens, Phantasms, Nano Deimos, and a whole host of other ships. It all boils down to your fleet knowing where the fight is and not wholesale running from it. -Liang But you admit that the scimi is better? |
Ahrieman
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
37
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Posted - 2012.02.11 05:10:00 -
[89] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Most Minnie ships pack Barrage/RF EMP in my experience, them being rather common.
Saying that I have found myself using hail recently 0.o
And jeeze, I just noticed that Basi runs all 5 reps stable assuming no local tank, thats actually pretty damn Impressive...
All but one of the ships I fly are minnie. I typically run PP as a default ammo due to common resist profiles and where pilots choose to patch resist holes. Barrage stays standardly loaded in many, but not all, AB kiting ships. I carry EMP and Fusion as backups, but tbh, I use fusion more than EMP too. Some ships I carry Dep Uranium as an insurance policy (for the tracking bonus), but only DU gets used less than EMP in my engagements.
This is because with so many ships have EM holes, even mediocre pilots patch the EM hole. This makes therm the resist hole. Then for the other ships that have high EM resists and their pilots think they're boss: they just take up the therm again. PP also has a tendency to do well against some armor ships too with that nice splash of kin that comes with projectile ammo. For all around damage type, PP tends to be consistently the best for minnies.
One of the bloggers (Wensley maybe?) actually did a very nice blog on how PP was typically best ammo to load by default. People that didn't know this read the blog, PP became more popular over the next few months as word spread.
On a side note, this seems to be hybrids dirty little secret: although they are restricted in damage type, they tend to be set up with the best all around damage types anyway. People never say anything about this when they cry about projectiles I scam on my main |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
776
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Posted - 2012.02.11 05:49:00 -
[90] - Quote
Orcirk wrote: By that logic why even bring a logi in the first place? Of COURSE you can't rep targets that are 500km apart, but the exact distance between targets where you CAN rep them goes up as the speed of your own ship increases. If you and I are in logis in a nano fleet and you bring a basi and I bring a scimi, there will be far more people onto whom I can get my reps before they die than you. THAT is the advantage offered by better speeds.
No, not really. Staying at the center of the fight means that I'll be able to instantly bring five RRs to bear on anyone in the fight. You're going to struggle to bring three RRs to bear on anyone on your half of the field. That's why the Basi is better.
Quote:Liang Nuren wrote:The Basi does work fine with slower nano HACs, and I've made pretty extensive use of it with Vagacanes, Nano Bingers, Nano Drakes, NOmens, Phantasms, Nano Deimos, and a whole host of other ships. It all boils down to your fleet knowing where the fight is and not wholesale running from it. -Liang But you admit that the scimi is better?
No, the Basi is better in almost all situations - though certain nano gangs (such as my "cynabal fleet") are better with a Scim than a Basi. Mostly because they're busy running away from the fight instead of partaking in it.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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