Umm Flagship is not a term we use... for anything really.

Do you mean a Command Ship fitting Gang Links or a Capital Ship like a Carrier or just a survivable heavy tanked ship that is hard to remove from the field.

It would also help to know the general make up of the gang, is it all Battleships, or Shield Battlecruisers, or HAC's or Frigs or a mixed fleet. Does your Gang plan to Camp or does it need Mobility, is it close range long range.

Also we don't really know what you can fly.

term was used in AT e.g. and should be well known.

However, lts say close range.

So according to massively it just means faction fit Battleship in Tourney Speak.

If I were to take my pic I would say go with a Slaved or LG Slaved Vindicator then for a close range fleet with a Faction Web and Faction Dmg Mods.

That should be within your Budget.

term was used in AT e.g. and should be well known.

Ed: For that matter, I got more kills last month than you have lifetime kills.

Yes. But you realise you're talking to CVA. I mean really... It's CVA.

Oh I wasn't referring to the Basi. More the fact that Liang gets more kills in a month than you do in a lifetime.

Where did I mention anything about blobs?

Although. Now you mention it. You have a point.

Wyte Ragnarok - just week.

So according to massively it just means faction fit Battleship in Tourney Speak.

If I were to take my pic I would say go with a Slaved or LG Slaved Vindicator then for a close range fleet with a Faction Web and Faction Dmg Mods.

That should be within your Budget.

Heavy Interdictor or command ships can both fit ridiculous tanks and do some decent dps. You WILL be primairied with either one though

Sorry I forgot blobbing horribly fit Drakes and killing solo Rifters with 2 T2 frigs is "leet Pvp", if you enliten me to the purpose of the Basi I will happily accept it as read.

Killboard stats are ******* awesome.

Ed: And besides, I don't rely solely on my KB stats. But you should know that. ;-) AND YES I STILL HATE YOU.

You could have just said, "i engage dudes who don't fire EM under sentries and need to active tank as a result" instead of "lol you have no kills."

Meh, don't get a whole lot of play time, and yes we blob things, primarily because we fight blobs of equal or larger size, way the world works. I Genuinely don't care about all this KB crap, just don't really see the point in the Basi its an honest question.

Oh and I'd like to see how long it takes you to solo a TCU :P

And besides, I don't tell you that you have no kills. I tell you that you're a ******* moron talking about an area of the game you self admittedly have no experience with.

Fuckwit.

Ed: And also, I engaged no matter who was on the field. But I don't expect someone like you to understand that.

Meh, don't get a whole lot of play time, and yes we blob things, primarily because we fight blobs of equal or larger size, way the world works.

Oh and I'd like to see how long it takes you to solo a TCU :P

What?

Clearly not angry at all.

This entire argument centers around your ******** assertions relating to an area of the game that you by your own admission have no experience with. I know that you tried to play it off as "low suck bears" but the reality is that you simply don't do the solo logi thing. And I don't even have to read your assertions on how solo logi work goes down to know that... you ******* said so yourself.

No, you may fly logis but its only as part of a WTFBlob. So kindly STFU about anything related to logis in small gangs - you clearly have no experience with it.



I thought I started the conversation with "And yes, I still ******* hate you". I meant it.

-Liang

No, you may fly logis but its only as part of a WTFBlob. So kindly STFU about anything related to logis in small gangs - you clearly have no experience with it.

I thought I started the conversation with "And yes, I still ******* hate you". I meant it.

Not gonna lie, it makes me giggle a little to see liang so pissed off. Logis are kind of a sore spot with him

Wow this is still going, would like to know how that Basi tanks very much sentry fire, being Sig doesnt come into the equation when it comes to gate guns, but hey I dont fight much in low sec, still dont see a great deal of point as it has awful cap life, a meh tank, less EM resists than a buffer fit cane etc etc and could get alphaed by a couple of Nados with RF EMP.

But as I say, it obviously has a purpose since you give it such wild acclaim, but as the man rightfully said;

"I need to tank sentry fire in short bursts while being able to be hidden to look engagable" would have been far better than you first response which was essentially "lol my char haz more kills than you char, this fit works"

Not sure where your getting your numbers from, i dont get nearly that much assuming all V, or are we talking Tengu Boost/Drugs/Slaves, even so, the cap lasts like 30 seconds with all reps on, just dont see why its better than a scimi, or a pair of Basis

Edit, Crystals, I am le tired

Not sure where your getting your numbers from, i dont get nearly that much assuming all V, or are we talking Tengu Boost/Drugs/Slaves, even so, the cap lasts like 30 seconds with all reps on, just dont see why its better than a scimi, or a pair of Basis

Edit, Crystals, I am le tired

I can see it working fairly well sometimes, just getting raped by anybody that brought a Recon, with the possible exception of the Curse/Pilgrim which should really die before they get within neut range (40k if memory serves).

Just feel like a Scimi which although being unable to tank gate guns would fair better in the Range control/speed factor, which is one of the best defences for logi tbh (speed and range)

And to the man up there of course there are various Basi fits and of course my comments only apply to this one, being its the one I'm discussing.

(Oh and Liang I dont dislike you honestly :P)

I can see it working fairly well sometimes, just getting raped by anybody that brought a Recon, with the possible exception of the Curse/Pilgrim which should really die before they get within neut range (40k if memory serves).

Just feel like a Scimi which although being unable to tank gate guns would fair better in the Range control/speed factor, which is one of the best defences for logi tbh (speed and range)

And to the man up there of course there are various Basi fits and of course my comments only apply to this one, being its the one I'm discussing.

(Oh and Liang I dont dislike you honestly :P)

How do you find it deals with LR Webbing from Huginns/Rapiers being it would destroy there sig tank entirely with the Reduced speed/painting.


Oh and Dat Guardian 0.o

Guardian needs to be in groups to be effective, its sig tank combined with EHP is nice, like 65+ EHP with legion bonus and around 65M Sig Rad with Loki bonus is pretty damn fine.

Apparently the Onieros no longer sucks though.

And have you considered swapping the second invul out for a Photon Scat, less cap usage an a better overall resist profile.

Being that EM damage is so prevalent.

I dunno, I'd say both the Ony and the Scim still suck. The Scim sucks because its just utterly outclassed by the Basi (even in the one niche where you would REALLY expect it to succeed) and the Ony sucks because the Guardian just works better for the blob warfare that you normally see armor rolling in. I blame the tracking link bonus, but I understand its really popular for people who need to shave another 15 seconds off their next Incursion NCO.

-Liang

The Scimis real purpose/niche is nanofleets.

Try to bring a Basi to a nanofleet and youll understand why youre a straight up ******.

Of course the basi is better for gatecamping in lowsec like the little wussy that you are.

Comments:
- Why yes, I do believe I've said that the Scim is superior if your entire fleet is in Cynabals and they have no idea how to stay in the 140km diameter sphere you can affect.
- I don't gate camp, and really nobody in the "late night crew" does.

-Linag

TBH that sounds a lot like something you would say, being a solo logi pilot who likes to fly in small gangs. As gangs get bigger, and people spread out more, and logis tend to like flying away from the guys trying to shoot them, it is quite easy for someone to slip out of the 70km range mark.

Also since I'm sure you've flown logis enough to know that you should pretty much never be closer to the opposing fleet than the guys doing the actual shooting, so I'm definitely going to have to call you out on using the diameter to refer to your range to make the number bigger

Also calling you out on pretending cynabals are the only things that can outrun a basi. Hell A basi with one nano moves slower than a zealot with the plates removed. Any sort of nano gang will have the basi lagging behind, and while this may not seem like much of a hindrance at the gang sizes in which you operate, on a larger scale it can get annoying, fast.

The scimi is ~40% faster than the basi (before getting into the extra lows and the potential for more nanos). If you can't see why that would be useful then fine, don't use it, but stop acting like things always work the way they do in your small lowsec gangs. 4 people staying in range of 1 logi is easy, 100 staying in range of 20 separate logis is less so.

Lets just agree to disagree here gents/ladies, before we delay this thread any further.

just don't really see the point in the Basi its an honest question.

Confirming CVA have no use for Logistics.

Forums ate my page long reply :(

TL;DR:
-Never said anything about active tanking in large fleets.
-As fleet sizes go up, the importance of applying your reps becomes more important than the amount of reps applied (see: blasters in large fleets)
-Most of the game thinks the scimi is a good ship (see ships most flown in pvp)
There was probably more, but **** these forums.

Comments:
- The entire conversation is around 5-20 man fleets. You bringing up 120+ man fleets is you bringing up 120 man fleets without any context to the conversation. Congratulations for muddying the conversation for no ******* reason.
- Yay, more talk about huge fleets. I've found that getting reps there faster isn't very useful if you don't have enough reps - but that's a natural effect of running in "small gangs" (which you apparently classify as less than 120-150 man?)
- Most of the game believes lots of **** that's just wrong - but the reality of the situation is that most of the game doesn't have experience running logis. And furthermore, most of the game doesn't have experience running the sole logi in a small gang (regardless of system sec). Thus - really, most of the game is working off of folk wisdom that's never been challenged.
- I can at least agree with that. **** these forums.

-Liang

I kinda prefer this condensed way of posting, might have to do it more often :D

Comments of my own:
-I don't really consider 5 man gangs to be fleets
-I never said that anything smaller than 120 counts as small, stop putting words in my mouth. (for the record I'd say about 20 and under counts as small for the purposes of debate, though I myself would define it as 10 or less)
-When the basis of the claim that most of the game thinks scimis are fine is the sheer number of people flying them, your argument that this is because they have no experience flying the ships that they're flying loses a fair bit of its validity.

Wow, we really can't drop the issue I succinctly summed up already.

Le sigh.

This debate has been going for a year. He's just as stupid now as he was then - except then he had the advantage of being simply ignorant and bullheaded.

-Liang

Love how Liang keeps trashing people because they ''dont know areas of the game as much as he does'', yet he clearly never left a gate with his logi and doesnt come close to having a clue how a nano-gang works.

A nanogang can often pull out fights going on ranges of multiple hundred KM, your basi will obviously be very useful for this right ?

Face the truth, the only thing that fit is good for is baiting fights ''oh look i have no logi --- suddenly decloak'' and fighting stuff you know you can smash close to a gate.

Bringing a Basi to a real nanogang is pure suicide, the gang will drop away and your basi will get popped on gate OR youll try to follow them and cap out in a second.

Scimmy is a billion times better then Basi for any nano-fleet, period. Basi is great for two things, big gangs where you have multiple basis (higher reps), or being a ****** in amamake.

A few comments:
- I've repeatedly stated that the only time a Scim is better than a Basi is when you're chasing Cynabals that are hell bent on running all over the battlefield.
- I've repeatedly seen 10 man BS fleets refuse to engage a 4 BC + Basi fleet even when the 4 BCs were taking sentry fire. They're much more willing to engage 10 BS vs 4 BC though... so yes, the ability to disguise yourself is acutally kinda important if you want to get fights.
- In the time period I'm discussing, I was still the CEO of Parsec Flux. We lived in a WH and roamed whereever our WH took us to that day. One day we'd be in Molden Heath and the next in Aridia, then Fountain and the Great Wildlands.
- I put out quite a few PVP videos these days, and claiming I don't know anything about nano fleets is pretty hilarious given we run at least one nano fleet in every one of the videos. ;-)

Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid. :)

-Liang

Yet your posts keep on proving to everyone that you havent got close to any clue what a real nanofleet is. There is no way in hell a basi will keep up with any kind of well executed nanocane or nanodrake gang, sitting on a gate is just not an option if you have any clue of what you are doing since nanofleets often have to pull out 200k to 300k range and drag it out, the basi just cannot do that.

Im sure the ability to bait people is very important in getting fights, its still baiting, and I dont see how it is in any way an argument to prove that basis are better then scimmies, I can slap a cloak on my scimmy too.

The fact you roamed around Eve and produced PVP videos isnt going to change my opinion, you clearly have no ******* clue what a nanofleet does if your idea of an optimal nanofleet logi is a basi staying on 0 of the gate while the fleet tries to stay within 70k.

tldr : never said your fit is bad, but the scimmy HAS an important place in the game which you clearly dont understand

What this tells me is that your fleet mates are **** at shaping a battlefield. If its the nano ships goal to stay within range of a basi, they can do it. Furthermore, you'd be amazed at how often you can make use of on-grid warping to keep reps flowing to people even hundreds of km apart - or to regroup your fleet and gank someone that you pulled away from their fleet mates.

At any rate, I've repeatedly stated that the Scimitar is superior for this kind of fleet - though it does so at an extremely heavy cost to cap and RR amount. Basically: you're pretty ******* stupid.

- I've repeatedly stated that the only time a Scim is better than a Basi is when you're chasing Cynabals that are hell bent on running all over the battlefield.

A) The Vagabond is obsolete.
B) The Cynabal is the most common nano cruiser
C) The Basi works fine with nano canes and most nano HACs

The nano ships goal is to stay in range of the PRIMARY. It falls to the LOGI to make sure the fleet members stay in range of reps.

Also, you're not a very good liar:

...
You said that the scimi is only useful for fleets of cynabals, and not for any other sort of nano gang. You DID say that it was the fleets job to stay within range of the logi, rather than the other way around.
axe told you that you're completely wrong, and now you're telling him that he's putting words in your mouth.

You cannot possibly justify this logic. The way nano fleets roll (even as Axxe puts it), the fleet will basically be scattering and trying to split the much larger blob apart. There's literally no way you can require the logi to be repping people hundreds of km apart. I'm watching some fraps of some of our more recent (logiless) nano gangs and there's people anywhere from 50-500km from me. You cannot fault a logi pilot for failing to rep two people taking damage so far apart.

The Basi does work fine with slower nano HACs, and I've made pretty extensive use of it with Vagacanes, Nano Bingers, Nano Drakes, NOmens, Phantasms, Nano Deimos, and a whole host of other ships. It all boils down to your fleet knowing where the fight is and not wholesale running from it.
-Liang

Most Minnie ships pack Barrage/RF EMP in my experience, them being rather common.

Saying that I have found myself using hail recently 0.o

And jeeze, I just noticed that Basi runs all 5 reps stable assuming no local tank, thats actually pretty damn Impressive...

By that logic why even bring a logi in the first place? Of COURSE you can't rep targets that are 500km apart, but the exact distance between targets where you CAN rep them goes up as the speed of your own ship increases. If you and I are in logis in a nano fleet and you bring a basi and I bring a scimi, there will be far more people onto whom I can get my reps before they die than you. THAT is the advantage offered by better speeds.

But you admit that the scimi is better?

Although I dislike all this insult throwing I will say one thing, in fleets, Basis, as with Guardians tend to fly 4/2, due to not everybody being Logi V, and 4/2 being a lot more forgiving when ECM/Neuting/Myriad other types of pressure are inevitably put on Logistics during a fleet fight.

So no, your basilisk will not be putting out 5 reps, it will be 4 max, possibly 3 if it needs an MWD.

TLDR, Basis and Scimis both normally fit 4 reps, unless MWD fitted in which case its 3, and no idea about Basis, because I have never seen an MWD Basi.

Once again Liang you prove to everyone that not only do you have no idea how a proper nano-fleet is ran, have no idea what speed a proper nanofleet can achieve, and in the end you try to cover it up with lies and or logical fallacies.

A nanofleet needs to spread out a battlefield, yes, you are correct, what you are wrong though, and what usually distinguishes competent nanofleets from retards flying nanocanes, is that a competent nanofleet needs to stay as a single coherent pack, that means to burn in the same direction while keeping enough range to apply dps to primaries but not being too close as to get easily tackled. As ennemy tackle and recons is thrown in, this usually means burning in a coherent unit for hunderds of kilometers, and sometimes switching aligns as the ennemy starts to get warpins.

With that in mind, the only logi in the game that is remotely able to do this job is the scimitar, its the only ship which possesses the speed and the cap to follow a good nanogang. If you have people that are 300k away from you in a nanogang, then you are either a horribly incompetent pilot, or that person 300k off is, a nanogang should always stick together while spreading a battlefield, and as such the logistics should ALWAYS be in rep range (while mainting a safe range from the ennemy DPS).

Leaving a Basi on a gate is completely ******** with a nanogang, the ennemy will chase your ships off slowly, and your basi will stay stranded on gate and get popped.

Of course, this whole scenario is based around true nanogang, which are usually employed as small units of 5-10 or so people, and which can go on against huge blobs because of their ability to never die if flown correctly.

Boosters are nice, but when youre fighting 10 vs 100 and the fight lasts for 30 min to 1hour, it doesnt even come close to being acceptable)

You also clearly stated that you believed a basi was superior to a scimmy even in its niche role (I quoted you on this earlier), so Im pretty sure im not putting any words in your mouth, youre just trying to find an easy way out to an argument youve already lost.

Also you can tell me Im stupid as much as you like, the fact is you should just stop commenting already since youve clearly made a fool of yourself.

I have never seen a functional MWD Basi, ever.

Basis can't keep up with shield canes, also fact.

You seem to be of the opinion that I don't think the Scim is good at that kind of combat. I don't know where you got that opinion, except perhaps the inability to read. One of the reasons I said you'd want to use a Scim is if your fleet is hell bent on running away from the fight itself. (I don't actually know if that particular quote was in this thread or not... it may have been).

That said, I don't often see that level of coordination from nano fleets even from fairly reputable groups like PODLA, GENOS, R&K, and PL.