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Petition to remove the "Set to 5" function from EFT

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Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:22:00 - [1] See title ^^ EFT is a fantastic tool, It is leagues ahead of the old Quickfit we were forced to use and i am a fanatical advocate of it. However the "Set to 5" function has spawned endless amounts of nerf threads and i belive has caused some realy senseless nerfs. Granted true EFT warriors will be able to set up a character on EFT with all skills to 5 regardless but they should have to work for that knowledge :) It is a handy function but atm it is causing alot of damage and whining. Ive seen so many threads saying "So and so ship can achieve 800 dps with only tech 2 kit, this is clearly OPed compared to other ships, NERF" Plee to the maker of EFT : Remove the Set to 5 function! Save EVE! ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Phil Miller Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:27:00 - [2] LMAO. ___________________________________
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:28:00 - [3] It's handy to see how close to maxing out my ship (there are ships that I'm VERY close to maxed out in.. yarr!) Its a great tool, but I don't know of a good way to fix the problem you see. But I agree it's there. =/ -Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:30:00 - [4] Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 19:30:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren It's handy to see how close to maxing out my ship (there are ships that I'm VERY close to maxed out in.. yarr!) Its a great tool, but I don't know of a good way to fix the problem you see. But I agree it's there. =/ -Liang BTW this was partially a joke, its just threads like this are realy getting me down. And i blame EFT and set to 5. As i said it is nice but it alass is doing more harm than good. I say we remove it before real damage is done :) ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:35:00 - [5] EVE has always been balanced with level 5 skills in mind. EFT is a third party tool, in no real way related to CCP. The tool didn't come with such a character preset from scratch btw. And I find it slightly ironic that you reckon Devs with characters with complete skillcharts to be using a tool like EFT to try out their ideas. ;) Postcount: 768708
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Liang Nuren It's handy to see how close to maxing out my ship (there are ships that I'm VERY close to maxed out in.. yarr!) Its a great tool, but I don't know of a good way to fix the problem you see. But I agree it's there. =/ -Liang I would like to see it include a readout of chance to hit and dps at max optimal from 0 to 15km transversal on a small boxed graph under the other readouts. Plus I would like to have it display the chance to hit and dps when outside of T2 Webber range upto max falloff. Lastly I would like to see the locking times when targeting a 1m-1000m signature radius at max optimal, outside webber range and at max falloff. That should give people an idea of the real viability of the ships.
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:40:00 - [7] Originally by: NoNah EVE has always been balanced with level 5 skills in mind. EFT is a third party tool, in no real way related to CCP. The tool didn't come with such a character preset from scratch btw. And I find it slightly ironic that you reckon Devs with characters with complete skillcharts to be using a tool like EFT to try out their ideas. ;) Its not that but time has shown if enough people shout for something to be nerfed the nerf will almost inevitably come. If EFT is fueling a lot of these nerf threads (Based on the presumption that alot of the time if not most of the time people wont call for the nerf of the ships they fly so they rely on EFT and ill informed 3rd party info for information). CCP ofc are not reliant on EFT for their info but alot of the eve forum comunity seam to be, And lets face it, who is more vocal on these forums, Nerf whiners or the devs? ;) ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Nian Banks Originally by: Liang Nuren It's handy to see how close to maxing out my ship (there are ships that I'm VERY close to maxed out in.. yarr!) Its a great tool, but I don't know of a good way to fix the problem you see. But I agree it's there. =/ -Liang I would like to see it include a readout of chance to hit and dps at max optimal from 0 to 15km transversal on a small boxed graph under the other readouts. Plus I would like to have it display the chance to hit and dps when outside of T2 Webber range upto max falloff. Lastly I would like to see the locking times when targeting a 1m-1000m signature radius at max optimal, outside webber range and at max falloff. That should give people an idea of the real viability of the ships. That is the other alternative. Either take away the ideal data or add more info to EFT to show that their so called "solo pwn mobiles" realy arnt.. ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Mooky Jones	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:48:00 - [9] I'd like to see a deathmatch feature added to it myself. That way when someone claims how overpowered a setup is, I can challenge them and show them the error in their thinking.
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 19:48:59 Originally by: Mooky Jones I'd like to see a deathmatch feature added to it myself. That way when someone claims how overpowered a setup is, I can challenge them and show them the error in their thinking. One more step to making this EFT Online ;) ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Xerpex Ars ex Discordia	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:50:00 - [11] All setups in eft should automatically have dps halved unless you set the "Forumwarrior" skill to 5 imo.
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:51:00 - [12] Wait, so you're saying ships should be balanced based on them having an incompetent pilot? O_o Generally if we assume everyone has basics V, the appropriate ship skill V, and the advanced skills IV (which I would expect a specialist to have) not much really changes. I mean, my Abaddon loses 3% of its dps or something if I chance it from all skills -> V, but losing out on Large Pulse Spec V won't really shift how it compares to other ships. Unless I'm in one of those nanoship threads where some guy is trying to discuss officer/faction fitted high-grade pirate implanted permanently overheated oversized MWD <random nanoship> speeds in a straight line assuming it doesn't cap out and has time to accelerate. Those make me cry. [yellow]Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:56:00 - [13] Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Wait, so you're saying ships should be balanced based on them having an incompetent pilot? O_o Generally if we assume everyone has basics V, the appropriate ship skill V, and the advanced skills IV (which I would expect a specialist to have) not much really changes. I mean, my Abaddon loses 3% of its dps or something if I chance it from all skills -> V, but losing out on Large Pulse Spec V won't really shift how it compares to other ships. Unless I'm in one of those nanoship threads where some guy is trying to discuss officer/faction fitted high-grade pirate implanted permanently overheated oversized MWD <random nanoship> speeds in a straight line assuming it doesn't cap out and has time to accelerate. Those make me cry. What im saying i suppose is people should only be able to know what ships are capable when using their own skills. Also a "Time till module death" setting would be nice on overheated speed setups would be nice. In the case of your abbaddon you have worked long and harded to fly that lovely boat so you have every right to see what it is capable. However it would be very easy for me to log onto EFT and say "OMG I GOT A SETUP WITH 750 DPS AND THE HP OF A FREIGHTER! THIS SHIP IS UNKILLABLE NERF NERF NERF" even having no experience of the ship. I might be so outraged at this that i might make a forum post and other EFT warrios might log onto EFT with their perma overheated level 5 setups of doom and confirm my figures. Doesnt take too long before youve got an angry EFT mob calling for a ship to be nerfed :) Addmitedly atm the EVE comunity have contained the EFT problem to rediculous speed fit threads but i feel it is only time and i feel the worst :( ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:02:00 - [14] How about instead of nerf nerf nerf you just destroy their threads in arguement?I mean if ccp nerfs stuff because of threads i guess they are going to read a couple of posts after the ops...
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:04:00 - [15] Don't see a problem TBH. Difference between 4s, and 5s isn't really all that much, but the latter provides a much more useful basis for comparison. I mean, I tend to use my character skills, for my fits, but if I want to, for example, see how a cerberus squares up against a diemos, rather than manually tweak all the skills i'm using in the latter to 5s and 4s as I need to, I'll just set both to 5, and see how that looks. Oh, and I do actually have almost all my skills at 5, on certain ships and setups. So it seems unreasonable for me to declare a ship of another race/ship sucky, because I simply cannot fly it well. EFT provides me a way to see what mods will fit, give a reasonable way to compare different setups on the same ship, and also give me an idea of what I can actually manage to run given cap constraints. As such, I find it very useful. I also find the 'all at 5' a useful comparison point, should I actually find it necessary to quote figures/ranges. I'm quite well aware that not everyone has e.g. all the missile skills at 5, but it's a much easier consensus point than some at 4s, some at 5s, or whatever else my character happens to be at the moment. This doesn't mean it's a solid basis for rational comparison of ships, but it does form a fairly reasonable starting point. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:12:00 - [16] Unfortunatly such a change to EFT would damage legit players trying to see the potential of their ships. And i sympathise with people wanting to boost their skills to 5 from 4 or so for whatever reason. However this feature is so abusable by people who have never even looked at said ship. ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:24:00 - [17] I tend to agree in principle. The Drake shield tanking theory was always based on absolute max skills. Seriously, who is going to dump that many SP into a ship that is a novelty for PvP anyway? Except for the rare instance where I absolutely have to train to V, I'm usually fine with sucking up that last 2% bonus or what have you and skipping the sometimes weeks of training and stopping at 4.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Derek Sigres I tend to agree in principle. The Drake shield tanking theory was always based on absolute max skills. Seriously, who is going to dump that many SP into a ship that is a novelty for PvP anyway? Except for the rare instance where I absolutely have to train to V, I'm usually fine with sucking up that last 2% bonus or what have you and skipping the sometimes weeks of training and stopping at 4. I have a 100% max skilled Drake. -Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:39:00 - [19] Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 20:41:22 Originally by: Derek Sigres I tend to agree in principle. The Drake shield tanking theory was always based on absolute max skills. Seriously, who is going to dump that many SP into a ship that is a novelty for PvP anyway? Except for the rare instance where I absolutely have to train to V, I'm usually fine with sucking up that last 2% bonus or what have you and skipping the sometimes weeks of training and stopping at 4. No offense to you but EFT and forumery also leads to the gross underestimation of ships aswell. Eve in PvP is constantly changing independant of CCPs whims of nerfs and buffs. Thankfully Pvpers dont exclusivly fly the fotm ship. Im telling you now the Drake is a fearsome ship. I fought a gang with 2 Drakes in, we natually assumed as you seam to that all they can do is tank and left them be. Soon we were all dead thanks to clever use of gank drakes. ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Katrina Coreli Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 20:41:22 Originally by: Derek Sigres I tend to agree in principle. The Drake shield tanking theory was always based on absolute max skills. Seriously, who is going to dump that many SP into a ship that is a novelty for PvP anyway? Except for the rare instance where I absolutely have to train to V, I'm usually fine with sucking up that last 2% bonus or what have you and skipping the sometimes weeks of training and stopping at 4. No offense to you but EFT and forumery also leads to the gross underestimation of ships aswell. Eve in PvP is constantly changing independant of CCPs whims of nerfs and buffs. Thankfully Pvpers dont exclusivly fly the fotm ship. Im telling you now the Drake is a fearsome ship. I fought a gang with 2 Drakes in, we natually assumed as you seam to that all they can do is tank and left them be. Soon we were all dead thanks to clever use of gank drakes. Not to mention, the skills (aside from BC5, which is a pretty common skill) to max out a passive tank are insanely easy (rank 1 and 3). That's a total of about 20 days with average attributes, and I started with the rank 1 at lvl 5 Ships are generally balanced with max numbers in mind, that's how it should be IMO. The problem isn't the "Set skills to 5" mode, it's that many of the nerf threads lack basic combat logic or statistics, and just stare at the shiney 1500 dps-number or the 50km/s-number. I personally use "set skills to 5" to see how much a maxed or specialized player will outdome me in the same setups, and it's never by much (in stuff I've actually trained )
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:15:00 - [21] I believe one of the earliest snippets of wisdom I received in EVE, was '5% is both more and less than you think' -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:34:00 - [22] Originally by: Katrina Coreli See title ^^ EFT is a fantastic tool, It is leagues ahead of the old Quickfit we were forced to use and i am a fanatical advocate of it. However the "Set to 5" function has spawned endless amounts of nerf threads and i belive has caused some realy senseless nerfs. Granted true EFT warriors will be able to set up a character on EFT with all skills to 5 regardless but they should have to work for that knowledge :) It is a handy function but atm it is causing alot of damage and whining. Ive seen so many threads saying "So and so ship can achieve 800 dps with only tech 2 kit, this is clearly OPed compared to other ships, NERF" Plee to the maker of EFT : Remove the Set to 5 function! Save EVE! You're just plain wrong. Comparaisons and general ship balance have always been done with maxed skills. EFT has nothing to do with that. Before EFT it was quickfit, before it it was Naughty Boy's spreadsheet, etc... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:39:00 - [23] EFT does not take actual damage (after damage loss from tracking/Falloff/Signature Resolution) into account. EFT doesn't take tactics or different tactical situations into account. EFT doesn't care about the actual piloting skill of individual pilots. EFT doesn't care about "bumping a ship past their optimal recharge". And those are just a few reasons why EFT warriors will always fail. EFT is a nice tool, and it's useful when thinking about setups and trying to verify that a certain setup fits and roughly the capabilities of any particular setup. In the hands of an experienced pilot EFT can help you find deadlier and more vicious setups, or simply realize the capabilities of setups you already have. However EFT will never replace the experience you get from actually flying an actual setup. Often it's a setup that doesn't have the optimal tank/gank/speed/E-war/whatever that will be victorious, but some mongrel of a ship whose EFT stats are ugly but simply works in real EVE because it's flexible, versatile, responsive, unpredictable (ie, it doesn't really conform to the norm, but instead has some kind of trick up its sleeve) and just bloody effective. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:50:00 - [24] Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 22:49:57 EvE is undenyably balenced with level 5 skills in mind, i would never try and agrue otherwise However EvE balencing is not based purely on the stats provided by EFT. As has been stated EFT makes several ommissions in regard to ship stats which masssivly over simplifies the situation in question and makes EFT warriors belive they can compare ships purely based on their tank, damage and speed. ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Enve'la	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:51:00 - [25] Originally by: Katrina Coreli See title ^^ EFT is a fantastic tool, It is leagues ahead of the old Quickfit we were forced to use and i am a fanatical advocate of it. However the "Set to 5" function has spawned endless amounts of nerf threads and i belive has caused some realy senseless nerfs. Granted true EFT warriors will be able to set up a character on EFT with all skills to 5 regardless but they should have to work for that knowledge :) It is a handy function but atm it is causing alot of damage and whining. Ive seen so many threads saying "So and so ship can achieve 800 dps with only tech 2 kit, this is clearly OPed compared to other ships, NERF" Plee to the maker of EFT : Remove the Set to 5 function! Save EVE! You do realize that you can create your own max setup character in EFT even if the included pre-built one is deleted, right? PS: You're a Gallente creating another whine thread about nerfs. This voids your argument.
Kyusoath Orillian Northern Intelligence	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:52:00 - [26] i don't use eft to to tell me combat effectiveness or anthing related to actually flying it. i use it only to see what will fit and how much cap it has. i ignore dps and volley , and pretty much everything else apart from the top speed (in a straight line). the dps figures don't mean anything , they are perfect situations that rarely if ever happen. i know exactly what you mean tho, EFT warriors are the people leading the charge on most of these senseless nerf threads . sadly ccp seem to be very into nerfing, when really it would make the game better to buff things. eg, myrm too good ? why not buff other bcs.
Alowishus Shadow Company FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:57:00 - [27] The problem isn't EFT or any feature of EFT. The problem is people and how they interpret and use information. Additionally, people don't know what PvP in Eve is, even if they participate in it on a daily basis. The biggest flaw I see is people setting up every ship for 1v1. Guess what, if you're at a gate camp with several people including dictors and tacklers, your BC/BS doesn't need a web or a scram. Also, 99% of the time when you die you were going to die whether you had Level V skills or the best faction gear or not. Lastly, people rate ships, weapons and races on two factors only, DPS and tank. If you engage in 1v1 slugfests then it's that extra 5% your enemy has that will do you in. I prefer not only to not engage in battles where such minute details determine the outcome, but I realize they don't often occur in Eve. In 1v1 battle you can die because someone has sig analysis higher than you and got a volley off first.
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:59:00 - [28] Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 23:00:55 Originally by: Enve'la Originally by: Katrina Coreli See title ^^ EFT is a fantastic tool, It is leagues ahead of the old Quickfit we were forced to use and i am a fanatical advocate of it. However the "Set to 5" function has spawned endless amounts of nerf threads and i belive has caused some realy senseless nerfs. Granted true EFT warriors will be able to set up a character on EFT with all skills to 5 regardless but they should have to work for that knowledge :) It is a handy function but atm it is causing alot of damage and whining. Ive seen so many threads saying "So and so ship can achieve 800 dps with only tech 2 kit, this is clearly OPed compared to other ships, NERF" Plee to the maker of EFT : Remove the Set to 5 function! Save EVE! You do realize that you can create your own max setup character in EFT even if the included pre-built one is deleted, right? PS: You're a Gallente creating another whine thread about nerfs. This voids your argument. If you had actually read my thread you would see i addressed this. But surely you would agree it would force people to work for the information, i suppose what realy peaves me is the accesability of flawed information to clueless people. And i knew this was inevitable: I am extreamly happy with the nerfs. I fly blaster boats and pre patch one of the only ships that scared me when cruising in my Brutix were myrmidons. Given that half BCs i saw were Myrmidons pre nerf i can justifyably call the nerfs a semi boost to me line of ships. Please dont come here talking steriotyped BS about Gallente whiners. Though this is partially a joke thread i am trying to address a very serious underlying issue which i feel is having a very bad effect on EvE atm. Originally by: Alowishus Lastly, people rate ships, weapons and races on two factors only, DPS and tank. Dont forget all the "OMG look how fast i can go with perma overheating and gang links" threads, but yes, i fully agree. ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:11:00 - [29] /fakesigned Also, please ban the use of forks. They are dangerous. hiccup
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:27:00 - [30] Thread fails. D-F-C recruitment closed

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