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AnKahn
Caldari
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:24:00 -
[31]
BTW, I have this mental image of people running away from MWDing Torp Ravens and its both funny and ironic.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.13 19:39:00 -
[32]
My torp Raven (using the Liang fit) helped kill a passive-regen Drake a few days ago. He had 3 LSE and 3 rechargers... and BC II. 10% EM resist. I MWDed straight at him, getting a huge blueshift effect on my torp volleys. 4800 volley damage (after resists), about 4 seconds apart, because of the blueshift. Splat. 
I don't see Cruise Raven being particularly useful for pvp though... if you want to sit at range and offer support, bring a Scorp?
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The Tzar
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Posted - 2007.12.13 21:51:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Gypsio III
My torp Raven (using the Liang fit) helped kill a passive-regen Drake a few days ago. He had 3 LSE and 3 rechargers... and BC II. 10% EM resist. I MWDed straight at him, getting a huge blueshift effect on my torp volleys. 4800 volley damage (after resists), about 4 seconds apart, because of the blueshift. Splat.
I don't see Cruise Raven being particularly useful for pvp though... if you want to sit at range and offer support, bring a Scorp?
Awesome, I like this blueshift affect..., has potentially
brought in a new concept BETA STRIKE!!
Does the painted torp raven now have the most useful,
tank braking intro to an engagement?
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.13 21:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: The Tzar
Originally by: Gypsio III
My torp Raven (using the Liang fit) helped kill a passive-regen Drake a few days ago. He had 3 LSE and 3 rechargers... and BC II. 10% EM resist. I MWDed straight at him, getting a huge blueshift effect on my torp volleys. 4800 volley damage (after resists), about 4 seconds apart, because of the blueshift. Splat.
I don't see Cruise Raven being particularly useful for pvp though... if you want to sit at range and offer support, bring a Scorp?
Awesome, I like this blueshift affect..., has potentially
brought in a new concept BETA STRIKE!!
Does the painted torp raven now have the most useful,
tank braking intro to an engagement?
IIRC, This is otherwise known as the Cavalry Raven.
-Liang
--
I give up (Make me say whatever you want!):
Price Check: Liang Nuren
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Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.12.13 22:42:00 -
[35]
Yah, too bad the concept of the cavalry Raven was utterly nerfed with the range nerf. You'll certainly get a blue shift effect from a cruise Raven (cruise missiles will still be going 4-6 km/sec faster than you no matter what you do), but it's not the OMGWTFBBQSAUCE alpha which characterized pre-Trinity cavalry Ravens. T1 torps get a measly 9 second flight time and 30 km range, meaning not that many volleys to get off, and Javelins only make the problem worse.
As to the OP, I'm not getting any passive tank (no matter what I do) to go beyond a T2 XL booster setup's sustained and peak tanks.
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I nerfed my own sig
To amuse you, here is my Retriever ever since its first Trinity deployment. RIP.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.13 23:48:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 13/12/2007 23:53:11
ah ignore this
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fugimi
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Posted - 2007.12.14 00:36:00 -
[37]
Edited by: fugimi on 14/12/2007 00:45:26
Originally by: Niques Leutre
Quote:
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
x7 Cruise Launchers
Empty High Slot
Core Defence Field Purger I
Core Defence Field Purger I
Core Defence Field Purger I
What's so great about it, you ask? Well a CNR's X-Large Shield Booster II permatank setup has a defense efficiency of about 442 points, while the above passive tanked version has 462 points using the same resistance modules and same skillset.
So here's my question: Since their effective tank is roughly the same, is there any particular reason one should choose an active permatank over a passive tank, or vice versa? I would guess that the passive tank is typically better since you have a lot more HP as a buffer for when the enemy overwhelms you, but I'm uncertain if that holds true as better in actual practice. Any thoughts on whether an active or passive tank would perform better in level four missions?
oh god, where should i begin...
1: a passive shield tank BS is weaker then an active tank even if u only use T2 gear.
2: a passive shield tank have very little flexibility. u cant change the setup much to fit ur needs like u can with active tank.
i tested ur silly setup with EFT and got 453 uniform with them 2 bcu's.
to prove a point, i created this silly (yet better) T2 fitted active tank
1xLarge Shield Booster II
2xShield Boost Amplifiers II
3xInvulnerability Fields II
2xCapacitor Flux II
1xDamage Control II
2xBallistic Control Systems II
3xccc I. (ofcourse)
Uniform Defence = 459 sustained (for 16.5 minutes which is more then enough) and 474 reinforced.
now lets simulate in our mind an active shield tank in action and a passive shield tank in action.
lets assume in both cases u warp in to a mission or pvp and u get scrambled or even jammed while under heavy fire, u need time!!!.
in a passive tank ur peak defence will be 453 but only when ur shields r around 30-50%.
the further u are from that point the less ur shields will fight back the dmg.
so ur shields start collapsing rapidly and ur ship dosnt regen fast at all at first, as the situation become worst and ur shields r collapsin ur ship will fight harder to repair the dmg and live up to its theoretical defence strength, but when it does reach there u oready lost half ur shields and if u keep losing shields u will eventualy cross the 30% line and then u will start losing regen strength again... oh boy... thats not good....
when ur shields r broken, they r weak and barely repair shield dmg at all. blah. what a dangerous unreliable setup. (sure it would be great in a BC where passive can achieve much stronger defence then active, but not on a BS)
active tank however will start fighting the shield dmg at full force right from the first scratch, and will push off the dmg reliably while ur shield go down.. and it will keep going even if ur shields broken it will buy u a hell lot more time then a passive shield tank of the same defence rating, provide u more reliable early warning about how bad ur situation and give u a greater feel to how fast u realy gonna be losing ur shields.
hell im running out of space here so i'll just add that this is just the entry level of active setups while the passive setup is in the end of its road.
from now on any improvment in gear will strengthen ur setup and allow stronger tanking/higher dps.
i have about 1300 uniform defence on my modest active shield tanked BS.
between this T2 large sb entry setup and the ultimate setups, theres many many variations for every pilot, ranging in strength and costs
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Castor Malking
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Posted - 2007.12.14 01:38:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Castor Malking on 14/12/2007 01:40:08
I have yet to be able to get a Raven to passive tank better then I can active shield tank it. I have really tried too. Even sacrificing all BCU's I think the best I have ever got out of a passive set up is around 90 shield per second at 50% shield and that was with no extra resists. So, I gave up on that quite a while ago now.
lately I have been working up my armor tanking skills to all 4's and 5's since the Raven doesn't get any bonus to shield tanking besides lots of mid slots. Once you have two BCUs on the third is so penalized that it doesn't help much any way. So I look at that as a spot to put a armor rep'er, a 1600 plate, and a armor resistance mod. i was thinking of trying a single invulnerbility field on the shield yet since in my case the shield will still be decent just from the skills I have trained up, but testing will have to decide that.
bah...why the heck did it post under that name...made this alt the other day to see what a new character starts with for skills...oh well. The main name is Vagrant Storm. Doubt any one here knows it...I don't post on the forums much
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.12.14 07:08:00 -
[39]
ô1: a passive shield tank BS is weaker then an active tank even if u only use T2 gear.
False. In fact often on Gallente ships the passive tank does more damage so are stronger with railguns
ö2: a passive shield tank have very little flexibility. u cant change the setup much to fit ur needs like u can with active tankö
Not been true for years. The passive tank is flexible. You donÆt have to use up all your slots.
ôand it will keep going even if ur shields broken it will buy u a hell lot more time then a passive shield tank of the same defence rating,ö
Half true. Sometimes it means you die faster and the passive tank keeps you alive much longer. Your not factoring in the large hitpoint buffer the passive tank has. If someone does high damage and breaks the passive tank hitpoint buffer chance's are the active tank died ages ago.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Flak Freefall
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Posted - 2007.12.14 14:19:00 -
[40]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Passive armour tanking is something of a different beast, and useful for entirely different reasons - personally I find passive shield to be a poor choice for PvP, and passive armour a poor choice for PvP.
Now I was under the impress that if you are flying an Amarr BS in PvP that the one of the best methods of doing so was to passive tank your BS so you can have the cap for your lasers. Is this not so? Of course if that was just a generalized blanket statement the nevermind. I just wanted to make sure this was pointed out. For my knowledge (being a new Amarriand BSer) and for others.
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fugimi
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Posted - 2007.12.14 15:04:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Pottsey
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/12/2007 07:31:09
ôUniform Defence = 459 sustained (for 16.5 minutes which is more then enough) and 474 reinforced.ö
So in a gang yours is weaker but yours is better solo. As the 15% hitpoint bonus from being in a gang boosts the passive tank up to 463 ish
Also you have to spend 5 to 10 minuets just using the booster to catch up to the passive tank so it might not be better anyway.
ô1: a passive shield tank BS is weaker then an active tank even if u only use T2 gear.
False. In fact often on Gallente ships the passive tank does more damage so are stronger with railguns. I know a amour tanked hyper does a lot less damage as an active tank then my passive tank with 425mm T2 railguns.
ö2: a passive shield tank have very little flexibility. u cant change the setup much to fit ur needs like u can with active tankö
Not been true for years. The passive tank is flexible. You donÆt have to use up all your slots.
ôand it will keep going even if ur shields broken it will buy u a hell lot more time then a passive shield tank of the same defence rating,ö
Half true. Sometimes it means you die faster and the passive tank keeps you alive much longer. Your not factoring in the large hitpoint buffer the passive tank has. If someone does high damage and breaks the passive tank hitpoint buffer chance's are the active tank died ages ago.
whats that about use it 5 or 10 minutes ? u make no sense there...
1:i was talking about passive shield tank vs active, as a reply to the OP.
i wasnt talking about armor tanks at all. which i dont know as well as shield tanks, and didnt realy check passive tanks on them.
2:ofcourse u dont have to use all ur slots for passive tank but that dosnt mean its as flexiable as active which is what i said. a passive shield tank will suffer graetly if u remove modules from its setup and giving the nature of SPR's u wont have the cap to use active modules such as AB / MWD or EW (if u realy wanna bring pvp into it).
active tanks however r more forgiving about weakening ur setup for other uses, not to mention they can use cap boosters + XL sb's to make a powerful short duration tank and use all sort of better quality faction/plex/officer modules.
3:the active setup i posted is using a DC II and infact have about the SAME Effective HP as the passive shield tank setup the OP suggested. given the nature of passive shield regen that active setup example will NO DOUBT hold longer any way u look at it. (except if u perhaps bring nos into the formula but in that case both setups sux anyway. 3 inv fields ? good luck getting nossed with that)
also remember that like i said, i just matched his exact setup using active shield setup to prove a point, and by no means is it a good setup.
u can use XL shield booster and even though it wont permarun (which is nice for missions) it will have the same cap to feed that booster and twice the power to convert cap into shields using the cap reserves if all hell break loose, so infact it will be much better in pvp or in any Extreme emergency.
i can make GOOD setups and create even MORE effecient active setups using cheap gear and increase its sustained defence, but like i SAID, i made this silly active setup to prove a point.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.12.14 18:52:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/12/2007 18:56:25
ô:the active setup i posted is using a DC II and infact have about the SAME Effective HP as the passive shield tank setup the OP suggested.ö
Not really the passive tank has way more effective shield hitpoints. To simplify numbers lets add one DCU over 1 SPR so both tanks have the same resistance. This puts the passive tank on 23,207 hitpoints and the active tank on 11,320 if the active tank has 1 DCU and the passive doesnÆt the passive tank still has more effective shield hitpoints. But still assuming both setups are the same resistance wise thatÆs a 11,887 shield hitpoint difference. Until the shield booster has regened the 11.8k worth of hitpoints itÆs behind the passive tank. Only by the timed the active tank has got regened 11.8k worth of hitpoints the passive tank is way over 13k.
(EDIT my numbers might be a little off from yours as I based the numbers useing my own Character with implants, but still its just to give you the idea)
If the battle is longer then 10 miniutes your better off with the passive tank.
If the battle is shorter then xxx minutes your better off with the passive tank as you base hitpoints is higher then the active tank has had time to regen
The only time the active tank is better is between xxx and 10 minutes
Its not as simple as one is better then the other. It all depends on how long the battle is and how much incoming DPS there is.
öpush off the dmg reliably while ur shield go down.. and it will keep going even if ur shields broken it will buy u a hell lot more time then a passive shield tank of the same defence ratingö
ThatÆs true but only sometimes. Due to the large hitpoint buffer on the passive tank, the active tank shields can go down long before the passive tank depending on incoming DPS.
ö(except if u perhaps bring nos into the formula but in that case both setups sux anyway. 3 inv fields ? good luck getting nossed with that)ö
In that case the inv fields turn to passive mode and the passive tank still gets it hitpoint buffer with resistance boosts and HP regen allowing you to fight back. Not as effectively but it gives you a chance. With the active tank your pretty much dead with no chance.
Say youÆre doing a mission. You use the buffer to lower the incoming DPS by killing ships then use the HP regen to finish off the rest of the ships as a passive tank. With your active tank you warp out after 10mins due to no cap. Or you have to try to stagger the shield booster with puts your tankable DPS below the passive tank.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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