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Niques Leutre Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:46:00 - [1] I was tinkering around in EFT earlier today, specifically with battleship setups. By sheer luck I unintentionally stumbled across a (possibly) excellent passive tanking setup for the Caldari Navy Raven: Quote: Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II x7 Cruise Launchers Empty High Slot Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I What's so great about it, you ask? Well a CNR's X-Large Shield Booster II permatank setup has a defense efficiency of about 442 points, while the above passive tanked version has 462 points using the same resistance modules and same skillset. So here's my question: Since their effective tank is roughly the same, is there any particular reason one should choose an active permatank over a passive tank, or vice versa? I would guess that the passive tank is typically better since you have a lot more HP as a buffer for when the enemy overwhelms you, but I'm uncertain if that holds true as better in actual practice. Any thoughts on whether an active or passive tank would perform better in level four missions? ___________________________________ When Newbies Attack! -- A True Story
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.12 19:50:00 - [2] Originally by: Niques Leutre So here's my question: Since their effective tank is roughly the same, is there any particular reason one should choose an active permatank over a passive tank, or vice versa? I would guess that the passive tank is typically better since you have a lot more HP as a buffer for when the enemy overwhelms you, but I'm uncertain if that holds true as better in actual practice. Any thoughts on whether an active or passive tank would perform better in level four missions? A few comments: 1. Passive tanking only "works" on faction battleships. 2. Faction battleships beg for faction shield boosters, implants, etc. 3. Far greater gank and utility can be fit on an active tanked battleship (utility = AB/TP) 4. When the enemy actually overwhelms you, you've got not 446 DPS tankable but more like 1200 DPS tankable for several minutes (because its not like you ahve to just sit there and take it. You're killing their damage dealers and lowering the incoming damage). IMHO, active tank battleships for greater gank and greater potential tank. -Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:01:00 - [3] My view on the subject is you have to give up just about everything you need to be effective in order to passive tank a BS. It's fine for a mission running ship of course, but without a few free mids to do some evil things to people with you aren't going to kill anybody no matter how long you sit there and soak up the damage. Unless of course you're in a gang but then that makes this entire question different.
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:15:00 - [4] Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 20:15:58 Originally by: Liang Nuren 1. Passive tanking only "works" on faction battleships. Passive sheild tanking that is. Passive armor tanking on Abbadons and Megathrons and the like is still knarly ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:21:00 - [5] Originally by: Katrina Coreli Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 20:15:58 Originally by: Liang Nuren 1. Passive tanking only "works" on faction battleships. Passive sheild tanking that is. Passive armor tanking on Abbadons and Megathrons and the like is still knarly Well, that only works if you're in a mission with a logistics ship. ^_^ I assume that it was a PVE build since I saw no warp disruptor on his proposed fit. -Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:28:00 - [6] Passive armour tanking is something of a different beast, and useful for entirely different reasons - personally I find passive shield to be a poor choice for PvP, and passive armour a poor choice for PvP. And to answer your question, yes, you _can_ passive tank battleships. The problem with doing so though, is that you make your life more difficult when doing so, because of the lack of an XL shield extender. So fitting an oversized shield extender just doesn't work nearly so well as it does on a smaller ship - ISTR a drake actually tanks harder than that number you've just quoted. Whilst your sustained defense efficiency might be comparable, you don't _actually_ need sustained defense efficiency. You need a peak of a minute or two, and then the incoming damage drops off again. Stuff like the CNR/Rattlesnake _can_ pull off passive tank tricks, but that's because they start off with higher base stats for shield hitpoints. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Katrina Coreli Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 20:15:58 Originally by: Liang Nuren 1. Passive tanking only "works" on faction battleships. Passive sheild tanking that is. Passive armor tanking on Abbadons and Megathrons and the like is still knarly Well, that only works if you're in a mission with a logistics ship. ^_^ I assume that it was a PVE build since I saw no warp disruptor on his proposed fit. -Liang Aye, very true. And i wasnt wishing to cast dispersions on your ship fitting knowledge, just thought id point it out incase any uninformed types took the statement at face value :0 ----------------- THE CAKE IS A LIE!
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:34:00 - [8] You can, but it's so slot intensive it makes me cry. And while it might beat a perma run t2 fit, you really should be comparing it to faction. CNR are made to be pimped, which just isn't possible in a passive tank.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:37:00 - [9] Originally by: Katrina Coreli Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Katrina Coreli Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 20:15:58 Originally by: Liang Nuren 1. Passive tanking only "works" on faction battleships. Passive sheild tanking that is. Passive armor tanking on Abbadons and Megathrons and the like is still knarly Well, that only works if you're in a mission with a logistics ship. ^_^ I assume that it was a PVE build since I saw no warp disruptor on his proposed fit. -Liang Aye, very true. And i wasnt wishing to cast dispersions on your ship fitting knowledge, just thought id point it out incase any uninformed types took the statement at face value :0 Have you ever seen what a passive armor tank does in missions with a Guardian or Ony? ::drool:: -Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.12.12 20:47:00 - [10] Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 12/12/2007 20:48:26 Originally by: James Lyrus Passive armour tanking is something of a different beast, and useful for entirely different reasons - personally I find passive shield to be a poor choice for PvP, and passive armour a poor choice for PvP. Passive armourtanking...poor...for...PvP? Whatthewha? If you're not using Deadspace/Faction reppers, then Passive armour tanking battleships are the bomb unless you're flying solo and against less than 2 enemy battleships. It's of course only viable if you have a few remote reppers in your fleet (logistic ships, Geddons, Megathrons, Tempests etc), but it allows you to absorb FAR more damage over the short period from "Full health" to "My Ship is a Small Pile of Spacedust" (a dual repper will have to run for about 6.5 cycles to be as effective as a dual plate tank, and that generally won't happen except in very small gangs). And that without absorbing valuable Capacitor points, or taking up as much CPU/PG as an active fit. If concentrate on having heavy resistance (2xEANM+DC or something like that and then adding plates) it's also a viable ship in a Spider tank fleet as the repping efficiency will be quite decent (2.03 armor/cap*resistance if you're at remote repping 5, or about equal to a T2 repper in cap efficiency). PS: Passive Shieldtanking is of course a completely different beast, since they have XL reppers (which rep far more than an Armor repper, over a shorter cycle and add their hitpoints at the beginning of the cycle) and no Battleship sized Extenders. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert-Nexus	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:16:00 - [11] passive shield tanking on bses is only good on a rattlesnake it can still tank quite well and free up 3 low slots for bcus. your passive cnr has about the same dps as a reg raven due to the loss of the 3rd much needed bcu. but it is nice to think out side of the box some times there are alot of passive ships out there but some need to be active. and passive armor gank mega rules.. who ever said passive armor tanking isnt good needs to fit bigger plates
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 12/12/2007 21:22:21 Originally by: Niques Leutre Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II ... Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I I fixed it for you. Throw that tank on a Rokh. Then throw a bunch of Neutron Blasters and 3-4 damage mods on it. Now Park it near a station. Its great for breaking up smaller (read: non capital) station camps, or doing some camping of your own. Note: Not to be used solo EVER. This is strictly for group work. Enjoy. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:24:00 - [13] Passive shield tanking is fine for pvp. Just remember the difference between passive-HP and passive-regen tanks...
Aneroi Amarr VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:25:00 - [14] If you take too much damage you will go past the max recharge point and die. So if the rats have high DPH you could be screwed
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Empire Research	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Katrina Coreli Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 20:15:58 Originally by: Liang Nuren 1. Passive tanking only "works" on faction battleships. Passive sheild tanking that is. Passive armor tanking on Abbadons and Megathrons and the like is still knarly How do you passive tank armour? _____________________________ Thorek Ironbrow of Ironbrow Industries Co. Part of the Empire Research Alliance Look us up in Nomaa or Itamo to join!
Hectaire Glade Forum Jockey	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:27:00 - [16] For PVE, the passive tanked Rattlesnake is pretty much the top of the pile, for PVP, if by passive tanking you mean 'enough HP buffer to kill/get away' then yah, it can be useful.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Originally by: Katrina Coreli Edited by: Katrina Coreli on 12/12/2007 20:15:58 Originally by: Liang Nuren 1. Passive tanking only "works" on faction battleships. Passive sheild tanking that is. Passive armor tanking on Abbadons and Megathrons and the like is still knarly How do you passive tank armour? 1600mm plates, Resistance mods. It's PvP only fits thou (unless you have Guardian/Oneiros/Battleship with a few remote reppers to back you up). It's based on the theory that from the point where they start to shoot at you to the point where you or they die it will, no matter what you do, take less than 2 minutes. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 07:39:00 - [18] Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2007 07:42:51 ô1. Passive tanking only "works" on faction battleships.ö What nooo, that means I cannot use my 3 passive shield battleships that I have been doing lvl 4 missions with for ages without problems. My poor Domi, mega and Hyper. ôAny thoughts on whether an active or passive tank would perform better in level four missions?ö I find passive works; it has more damage, better range and just as good a tank as the amour tank. Thinking about my Gallante ships here. My Sentry drone ship is amour tanked only as passive tanking is much weaker. My high damage dealing ships with 3/4 damage mods are passive tanking only. Passive shield tanking guide click here
AnKahn Caldari Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:44:00 - [19] This subject is a direct result of people playing with EFT. Not that you can't come up with a unique fit using EFT. But in practice the passive BS tank, at least on a regular Raven, is "not as strong" as an active shield tank. I can only comment from a pure Caldari perspective. The Caldari pilot eventually works up to a Drake, and after flying a Ferox (because that's the first BC he can afford) the Caldari pilot is like "passive shield tanking BC FTW !!". Then he can afford a Raven. He takes his mods off his now parked Drake and puts them on his Raven. The Raven soon explodes. So with MINIMAL skills passive shield tanking a Raven fails, imho. Now if you are a 3 year old player I'm sure you can fly a passive BS on lvl 4 missions. But in a 3 min PvP engagement active shild boosting + cap injecting + shield boost amplifying is the standard I think. Some crazy math genius will eventully sigh when he sees the name of this thread and show you why. Cheers
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:57:00 - [20] Originally by: AnKahn This subject is a direct result of people playing with EFT. Not that you can't come up with a unique fit using EFT. But in practice the passive BS shield tank, at least on a regular Raven, is "not as strong" as an active shield tank. I can only comment from a pure Caldari perspective. The Caldari pilot eventually works up to a Drake, and after flying a Ferox (because that's the first BC he can afford) the Caldari pilot is like "passive shield tanking BC FTW !!". Then he can afford a Raven. He takes his mods off his now parked Drake and puts them on his Raven. The Raven soon explodes. So with MINIMAL skills passive shield tanking a Raven fails, imho. Now if you are a 3 year old player I'm sure you can fly a passive BS on lvl 4 missions. But in a 3 min PvP engagement active shield boosting + cap injecting + shield boost amplifying is the standard I think. Some crazy math genius will eventully sigh when he sees the name of this thread and show you why. Playing with EFT is a good thing and should be encouraged. The problems come from misinterpreting the EFT numbers, or not appreciating factors not included in EFT - such as missile flight time, for example, or other pvp realities. As for the Raven, a pvp torp Raven with active tank and MWD simply doesn't work - you run out of PG and CPU. But the passive-HP tank works well enough, and lets you fit 3-4 BCS for comedy gank. Same with the Drake - you don't have the PG to go active, but a passive-HP tank allows you to fit 3 BCS.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:18:00 - [21] Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2007 17:20:16 ôBut in a 3 min PvP engagement active shield boosting + cap injecting + shield boost amplifying is the standard I think.ö In the shorter engagements passive tanks are the best options. ItÆs only the longer fight where active wins. ItÆs due to the large amount of hitpoints the passive tank will have more base hitpoints then the active tank can get from the shield booster. A max Raven pilot in a fleet with T1 rigs can have upwards of 60k shields without resistance. -11k from a active tank Raven in a fleet and thatÆs a 49k shield difference. An Xlarge booster with an amp is 163.2 per second. So it takes 5 minuets for the booster to regen as many hitpoints as the passive tank has as base. That not even factoring in the passive tank HP regen. Which means the active tank needs longer to catch up. Above assumes 100% of modules on tanking both as active and passive. Even with less modules on tanking the basic principle is the same. A passive tank will last longer in high damage and/or short engagements Passive shield tanking guide click here
Aleranie	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:35:00 - [22] .. 60k shields ... Ok. An LSE gives 2.3k shields, where the hell are you getting this 60k number? Are you seriously fitting all extenders, rigs and factoring in that as hp? No hardening at all? An active shield tank uses a lot of hardening, and did you really leave rigs out of the calculation for the active raven? No one brings ravens in a fleet anyways.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Aleranie .. 60k shields ... Ok. An LSE gives 2.3k shields, where the hell are you getting this 60k number? Are you seriously fitting all extenders, rigs and factoring in that as hp? No hardening at all? An active shield tank uses a lot of hardening, and did you really leave rigs out of the calculation for the active raven? No one brings ravens in a fleet anyways. 6x Siege MWD, LSE, LSE, 2x Invuln, TP DC II, PDU II, 3x BCU II 3x CDFE -- 98k 'eff hp' (roughly 20k shields fairly well hardened, but includes armor/hull) -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Eardianm Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.13 17:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Aleranie No one brings ravens in a fleet anyways. And fleet fights are the only combat in Eve. Liang's fit works fine as a HP buffer, especially in smaller gang environments. --------------
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:29:00 - [25] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Aleranie .. 60k shields ... Ok. An LSE gives 2.3k shields, where the hell are you getting this 60k number? Are you seriously fitting all extenders, rigs and factoring in that as hp? No hardening at all? An active shield tank uses a lot of hardening, and did you really leave rigs out of the calculation for the active raven? No one brings ravens in a fleet anyways. 6x Siege MWD, LSE, LSE, 2x Invuln, TP DC II, PDU II, 3x BCU II 3x CDFE -- 98k 'eff hp' (roughly 20k shields fairly well hardened, but includes armor/hull) -Liang I like this. Whats the DPS on a painted BS? __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Aleranie .. 60k shields ... Ok. An LSE gives 2.3k shields, where the hell are you getting this 60k number? Are you seriously fitting all extenders, rigs and factoring in that as hp? No hardening at all? An active shield tank uses a lot of hardening, and did you really leave rigs out of the calculation for the active raven? No one brings ravens in a fleet anyways. 6x Siege MWD, LSE, LSE, 2x Invuln, TP DC II, PDU II, 3x BCU II 3x CDFE -- 98k 'eff hp' (roughly 20k shields fairly well hardened, but includes armor/hull) -Liang I like this. Whats the DPS on a painted BS? According to EFT, I get about 800 DPS from 25km (BS4, Support 4, Torp 4, CN Bane Torps). I don't remember/care what it was with max skills. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:34:00 - [27] Edited by: Pottsey on 13/12/2007 18:35:30 öOk. An LSE gives 2.3k shieldsö 2.3k is the base on the module, when fitted you get more. When I take one extender off my Domi I lose 8,479 hitpoints. On one of my PvE setups taking 1 extenders off means I lose 9,634 hitpoints. ôAn active shield tank uses a lot of hardening, and did you really leave rigs out of the calculation for the active raven?ö I assumed hardening was the same between both ships. If you want post a active tank setup and I will work out the hitpoint difference and time for the booster to match the base hitpoints on a passive ship of the same style of fitting and same hardners, damage mods e.c.t. I used cap rigs for the active tank. ôAre you seriously fitting all extenders, rigs and factoring in that as hp? No hardening at all?ö Of course not. It wasnÆt a real setup it was just an example of how it works. No matter how many or how few modules you fit theory is the same. It takes xxx amount of time for the active tank to catch up to the passive tanks base hitpoints. By the time the active tank has cought up to the passive tanks base hitpoints, the passive tanks has pulled ahead due do its own regen. Normally after yyy amount of time the active tank overtakes the passive. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Si Delane Sector 7 Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:39:00 - [28] That's a pretty neat build Liang. Actually looking at it in EFT gives me 115k effective hp with full T2. 990 dps with rage fully painted up, although I think fitting this my actual character rather than all-V I'd use Arbalests + faction ammo. Those last two highslots are painfully empty and no CPU or grid left to speak up to think of fitting them with nos or neuts. Torps are silly now. ------------------------- Actually this IS my main.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.13 18:42:00 - [29] To further enhance Liang setup get in a gang another 10% hitpoints or 15% if someone has mindlink. Perhaps add in the cheap 3% hitpoint implant for 18% hitpoint bonus with mindlink. Passive shield tanking guide click here
AnKahn Caldari Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.12.13 19:09:00 - [30] Ok guys, as they say, I'm listening. If I can find the time to mission run (between PvP this weekend) I might have the isk to buy another Raven soon. The Llang fit looks like about 40-50 mil in rigs. Raven is FOTM to primary, so not sure. I lean tward resistance rigs because they cost about the same as a tech II modules so you don't cry as hard when ship 'splodes. To me 2 resistance rigs = a midslot hardener so 10 mil to free up a midslot seems a good deal. Also, some of us cannot afford 2 Ravens, rigged differently, but I'm sure I could swap out the launchers for Cruises and then go active for PvE? That would probably work. Finally for small gangs (around 10) I would use my Drake (mobility, cost, anti-primary effect). I would only pull out a Raven for a gang of 20+. But thanks for the nudge tward HP buffer. You guys rule the forum.

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