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What has hapend to the torpedos?

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Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:19:00 - [1] Imagen the suprice and i hope this is a bugg when i fire volly after volly with torpedos at a npc raven battleship like the one i have and cant even scratch it even thou the log tells me im scoring hitt after hit and doing 300+ hp damage. Im trying to find out what hapend and find the modul stats change and im now reatching only 24,5 km with my torpedos. If they want to downsice the torpedo i think from 98km that is my target range to less then 25km is not logical and it will mean the end of that weapontype since most battleships keep at a range of 20-50km from u in battle. I suggest they rethink that and make the lunchers more power draing or something so u cant fitt 6 of them if they want to reduse the damage they making. cuse this way u will take them compleetly away since the cruismissil will keep u at atleest 70km away and do 300 - the enemys damage reduktion so maby 200-260hp a missile. Hope the suport get back to me petition bout the this cuse the log is confusing me wit hthe report that im hitting my foe heavy and no damage is taken... /ray c
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:21:00 - [2] They did just the opposit. They gave them a huge damage boost, (check out the new Rate of Fire) at the cost of range. Do read the patch notes, you'll find quite a few interesting things in there. Postcount: 524557
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services The Acquisition	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:26:00 - [3] They're great for PvP now. You should try it. PvP, that is.
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:28:00 - [4] Originally by: Ray Cald Imagen the suprice and i hope this is a bugg when i fire volly after volly with torpedos at a npc raven battleship like the one i have and cant even scratch it even thou the log tells me im scoring hitt after hit and doing 300+ hp damage. Im trying to find out what hapend and find the modul stats change and im now reatching only 24,5 km with my torpedos. If they want to downsice the torpedo i think from 98km that is my target range to less then 25km is not logical and it will mean the end of that weapontype since most battleships keep at a range of 20-50km from u in battle. I suggest they rethink that and make the lunchers more power draing or something so u cant fitt 6 of them if they want to reduse the damage they making. cuse this way u will take them compleetly away since the cruismissil will keep u at atleest 70km away and do 300 - the enemys damage reduktion so maby 200-260hp a missile. Hope the suport get back to me petition bout the this cuse the log is confusing me wit hthe report that im hitting my foe heavy and no damage is taken... /ray c the change was LOGICAL....nomatter how much carebears cry.... now torps are one of the best missile systems for PVP. ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online. dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue
Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:33:00 - [5] yes i can belive so, but im not a pvp person i just fly missions against npc cuse of my life philosofy and rely hate pv p, this is truly a dark day for mission runners like my self. guess its back to the cruismissiles then. Still it dont explane the whay my log reporting massiv hitts on my foe and nothing happens. /ray
Joie Mains Vindicator A Team	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Ray Cald yes i can belive so, but im not a pvp person i just fly missions against npc cuse of my life philosofy and rely hate pv p, this is truly a dark day for mission runners like my self. guess its back to the cruismissiles then. Still it dont explane the whay my log reporting massiv hitts on my foe and nothing happens. /ray yeah sorry for that ... loooks like eve truly is what gm say... a pvp game
Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:46:00 - [7] Hmm whay didint they do assault Torpedo like with the heavy missils with faster firerate and more damge and shorter range? That would solve things for bouth sides of pvp and non pvp. /ray
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:46:00 - [8] Originally by: Joie Mains yeah sorry for that ... loooks like eve truly is what gm say... a pvp game It is, if you consider all competetitive aspects pvp. With a Raven and t2 torps you can still tweak your torps to go pretty hard. Postcount: 758596
Joie Mains Vindicator A Team	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:51:00 - [9] Originally by: Ray Cald Hmm whay didint they do assault Torpedo like with the heavy missils with faster firerate and more damge and shorter range? That would solve things for bouth sides of pvp and non pvp. /ray balance ? we have long and short range guns.. atm caldari got best short range ones ..
Serafeim Odessa Operations Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:54:00 - [10] I love the new torp changes, its made my typhoon into an awesome short range ratting ship and pvp ship if needed.
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.12 21:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Ray Cald Hmm whay didint they do assault Torpedo like with the heavy missils with faster firerate and more damge and shorter range? That would solve things for bouth sides of pvp and non pvp. /ray There are two types of missiles. Guided and unguided. Guided: Standard - Frigate Heavy - Cruiser Cruiser - Battleship Unguided: Rocket - Frigate Heavy Assault Missile - Cruiser Torpedo - Battleship The differences betwen guided and unguided are: Guided deal less damage. Guided have longer range. Unguided are harder to fit. Unguided can't use FoF. Postcount: 712484
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:00:00 - [12] Oh look. Yet another 'omg wtf torpedos suck now' post, from someone who didn't read the patch notes. Every ship in EVE had a choice to make: Whether to fit long range weapons, or short range. Blasters, Autocannons, Pulse lasers all fit the 'short' range model. Railguns, artilley, beam lasers the long range. The shorter range weapons are all easier to fit, higher damage, better tracking weapons. But they more or less require you to have some mobility in order to use effectively. In the missiles, you a get a slightly different situation. Rockets and HAMs, which are short range, high damage weapon systems. Light missiles and heavy missiles, which are longer range, lower damage. Interestingly, the longer range missiles are also the ones which hit smaller targets more easily. (Fittings is a bit of an oddball - light missiles are harder to fit than rockets, but HAMs are harder than heavy missiles, and torps are MUCH harder than cruise missiles. This model, however, broke down horribly, at the Raven, and to a lesser extent the typhoon, where there was a choice of: A long range, high damage weapon system, or a long range, lower damage weapon system, which also hit smaller target easier, and had easier fittings. Now, they've changed it, so torps/cruise are a short range, high damage weapon system, and a long range, lower damage weapon system. LIKE EVERY OTHER SHIP IN EVE. You _can_ use your close range weapons, in return for damage advantage. However, you can also use the long range option, and not have to have as much mobility. The same choice that any other ship has to make doing PvE - you don't _tend_ to find many autocannon or blaster ships doing PvE. I don't think you actually tend to see pulse lasers either. And now the Raven will be the same - close range, but needing maneuverabilty, or long range. The Raven remains right in the top tier of PVE ships. Cruise missiles are actually not all _that_ much worse than torps at clearing a mission (if they are worse at all) simply because of respective ratios of damage against smaller targets, and the number of them in a level 4. Raven is still right there, at the top of the pile. It's just the gap between it, and all the others has now narrowed, to the point where it might actually be worth putting a different race of battleship through level 4 missions. And incidentally, it made a largely worthless PvP ship, into a very cabable one. So the race that used to be 'rubbish' at PvP, and 'omg wtf easy mode' at PvE, have been balanced, to become worse at the latter, and better at the former. Probably one of the best changes they've made to EVE. And I say that as someone who does fly the Raven, quite a lot, in both PvE and PvP contexts. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:03:00 - [13] Parden me if i not chare u entusiasm bout PvP. for me this game is to relax and do a mission or 2 and chat with friends since i dont need the adrinalin, I get enuff of that from rl work. To me this is making the game unbalanced, is there any changes like this coming on the cruissmissiles too? just so I know if Im wasting skillpoints or should find a different thing to do on my free time in the future. /ray
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:08:00 - [14] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Ray Cald Hmm whay didint they do assault Torpedo like with the heavy missils with faster firerate and more damge and shorter range? That would solve things for bouth sides of pvp and non pvp. /ray There are two types of missiles. Guided and unguided. Guided: Standard - Frigate Heavy - Cruiser Cruiser - Battleship Unguided: Rocket - Frigate Heavy Assault Missile - Cruiser Torpedo - Battleship The differences betwen guided and unguided are: Guided deal less damage. Guided have longer range. Unguided are harder to fit. Unguided can't use FoF. Actually, in terms of fittings, there's a bit of disparity. Rockets are 15 cpu, 4 powergrid Standard launchers are 25 cpu, 8 pg heavy missiles are 50 cpu, 100pg heavy assault missiles are 45cpu, 120pg Cruise missile launchers are 60cpu, 1250 grid Siege missile launchers are 80cpu, 1750 grid. Which is an interesting disparity in the 'pattern' of weapon power, and range. Frigate size ships, it's the short range weapon that's (much) easier to fit. Cruiser sized is arguable, since you trade 20% more grid, for 10% cpu. But I certainly find HAMs a tougher fit on a caracal than heavy missiles. And BS sized, it's the short range weapons that are easier. Not that I'm necessarily suggesting it should be changed or anything, but in the interests of consistancy, it might be worth considering reducing the grid use of HAMs a bit, and possibly even swapping cruise and torp stats around. Then again, the relative utility of 'long range' missiles is somewhat different to that of turrets - given a flight time implicit, longer range on missiles isn't necessarily as much of an advantage as it would be on a turret, compared to the closer range options. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Joie Mains Vindicator A Team	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Ray Cald Parden me if i not chare u entusiasm bout PvP. for me this game is to relax and do a mission or 2 and chat with friends since i dont need the adrinalin, I get enuff of that from rl work. To me this is making the game unbalanced, is there any changes like this coming on the cruissmissiles too? just so I know if Im wasting skillpoints or should find a different thing to do on my free time in the future. /ray dont try change game that it would be better for u
NoNah	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Ray Cald Parden me if i not chare u entusiasm bout PvP. for me this game is to relax and do a mission or 2 and chat with friends since i dont need the adrinalin, I get enuff of that from rl work. To me this is making the game unbalanced, is there any changes like this coming on the cruissmissiles too? just so I know if Im wasting skillpoints or should find a different thing to do on my free time in the future. /ray If you do find a new thing, can I have your stuff? Care to tell me more about this balance you speak off? What are you balancing it against that renders it unbalanced now? Postcount: 917185
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:11:00 - [17] Originally by: Ray Cald Parden me if i not chare u entusiasm bout PvP. for me this game is to relax and do a mission or 2 and chat with friends since i dont need the adrinalin, I get enuff of that from rl work. To me this is making the game unbalanced, is there any changes like this coming on the cruissmissiles too? just so I know if Im wasting skillpoints or should find a different thing to do on my free time in the future. /ray I'll not try and change your mind about PvP, other than to point out that EVE _is_ a PvP game. This is not unbalanced. Try doing a L4 mission in any other battleship, and squaring that up against how fast a torp raven (used) to be able to do it. The raven was SO clearly better, that it was all you EVER saw, in any of the mission hubs. Even those for 'non caldari' mission agents. THAT was imbalance, and this change has fixed it. Fit cruises. They're as good (if not better) for L4ing. Both in terms of fittings, and because they're significantly easier to fit. I have not seen any proposed changes to cruise missiles in my trundling about the forums. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Sonorra Baki Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Ray Cald Parden me if i not chare u entusiasm bout PvP. for me this game is to relax and do a mission or 2 and chat with friends since i dont need the adrinalin, I get enuff of that from rl work. To me this is making the game unbalanced, is there any changes like this coming on the cruissmissiles too? just so I know if Im wasting skillpoints or should find a different thing to do on my free time in the future. /ray No matter what you do, it sounds like its gonna waste skillpoints. The exit is that -> way. This may not be work safe -Capsicum
Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:20:00 - [19] I was happy with it as it was mate, now i have to adapt to this change, just think that if they done like with the heavy missile and assault missil change more ppl would happy in the end. We all have choises to make, this change just making my day harder but i live, I just giving my 2 thouts about the change. C whats hapens and make my chois bout that when i get there but when Rl stinks and the only fun thing make u uncoftebel then its time for a rl change as well. /ray
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Ray Cald Parden me if i not chare u entusiasm bout PvP. for me this game is to relax and do a mission or 2 and chat with friends since i dont need the adrinalin, I get enuff of that from rl work. To me this is making the game unbalanced, is there any changes like this coming on the cruissmissiles too? just so I know if Im wasting skillpoints or should find a different thing to do on my free time in the future. /ray A prediction: In a minimum of three months you will find yourself immersed in PVP. You will fight and die with honor. You may then proclaim, "torps R teh mfin PWN!!!" hiccup
Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.12 22:54:00 - [21] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Ray Cald Parden me if i not chare u entusiasm bout PvP. for me this game is to relax and do a mission or 2 and chat with friends since i dont need the adrinalin, I get enuff of that from rl work. To me this is making the game unbalanced, is there any changes like this coming on the cruissmissiles too? just so I know if Im wasting skillpoints or should find a different thing to do on my free time in the future. /ray If you do find a new thing, can I have your stuff? Care to tell me more about this balance you speak off? What are you balancing it against that renders it unbalanced now? For me the balance i speak of was the npc battleships that keep at a distans from you that never let u come with in 25-50km from them unless you have a ab fitted. Question: do unguided weapons miss it target ever? In sutch case u should be abel to manuver away from the volly of unguided misiles. /ray
Alowishus Shadow Company FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:21:00 - [22] Tell me more about your life philosophies.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:31:00 - [23] Originally by: OOOSOOO You will fight and die with honor. 'Cept there is no death in EVE, and some would say honor is pretty scarce too
Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.12 23:46:00 - [24] Originally by: Alowishus Tell me more about your life philosophies. Well quite simple treet ppl like u want to be treeted u self. Thats whay i dont do pvp, cuse there is a person behind that ship u blowing up and pod for fun/adrinalin ruch or what ever make them tick that most likely having a bad day. yes I know that when you enter low sec u take u chanses but some times it hapens in highsec too like ice thiefs that switch u can so they can use the system agenst you or ppl that can make some fast isk by killing you in your frig and get the items worth milions. I dont need to add to the evil around me, i ratherhelp a fellow traveler with a word of advice or a cherfull greeting. I dont mind blowing up npc,s cuse i get my frustrations out on that knowing there is nothing but mashin i beaten, it's enuff for me. /ray
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: OOOSOOO You will fight and die with honor. 'Cept there is no death in EVE, and some would say honor is pretty scarce too True. I think I will go roam a bit. x? hiccup
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.13 00:27:00 - [26] Edited by: madaluap on 13/12/2007 00:30:48 Originally by: Ray Cald Originally by: Alowishus Tell me more about your life philosophies. Well quite simple treet ppl like u want to be treeted u self. Thats whay i dont do pvp, cuse there is a person behind that ship u blowing up and pod for fun/adrinalin ruch or what ever make them tick that most likely having a bad day. yes I know that when you enter low sec u take u chanses but some times it hapens in highsec too like ice thiefs that switch u can so they can use the system agenst you or ppl that can make some fast isk by killing you in your frig and get the items worth milions. I dont need to add to the evil around me, i ratherhelp a fellow traveler with a word of advice or a cherfull greeting. I dont mind blowing up npc,s cuse i get my frustrations out on that knowing there is nothing but mashin i beaten, it's enuff for me. /ray C'mon man, offcourse it ****es some people off. But than again, they kill you back. Do you feel bad when you produce something for 100% and than sell it @ 400-500%, because you invested the time and skills for building that particular item? Offcourse not, the customer buys it in a blink of an eye while you spend time making sheets, finding cheap minerals, need to handle competition, invest SP and arent capable of defending yourself because you invested that SP into manufacturing. Just like setting up a camp or roaming around takes time, carefull planning, SP and skilled players. what would else be the point in (fleet) commanders, carefull planning and decent scouting, when a good set of brains got you nowhere. If i die, i got outsmarted. (or i was being risky again) C'mon who gives a damn. Its a game, it are pixels. Yes you invest time in them, but never forget they are pixels. Thats all they are. Else everyone would be sitting with a Isk --> Euro calculator for each Isk they earned. If you want respect and help, dont take things personal... Npc are necesarry, but they are the biggest source off inflation. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Adelorae24 Caldari Highwaymen	Posted - 2007.12.13 02:16:00 - [27] Yeah... Think PvP, mission boy. These things are sick and twisted right up in the enemy's face all target painting and sh*t!!! btw... When I'm forced to run missions I do it in a Nighthawk anyway, so I care nothing for your complaints about PvE. New Sig Pending...
Chromakey Dreamcoat Caldari Model Of Aggression	Posted - 2007.12.13 03:16:00 - [28] Originally by: Ray Cald Imagen the suprice and i hope this is a bugg when i fire volly after volly with torpedos at a npc raven battleship like the one i have and cant even scratch it even thou the log tells me im scoring hitt after hit and doing 300+ hp damage. Im trying to find out what hapend and find the modul stats change and im now reatching only 24,5 km with my torpedos. If they want to downsice the torpedo i think from 98km that is my target range to less then 25km is not logical and it will mean the end of that weapontype since most battleships keep at a range of 20-50km from u in battle. I suggest they rethink that and make the lunchers more power draing or something so u cant fitt 6 of them if they want to reduse the damage they making. cuse this way u will take them compleetly away since the cruismissil will keep u at atleest 70km away and do 300 - the enemys damage reduktion so maby 200-260hp a missile. Hope the suport get back to me petition bout the this cuse the log is confusing me wit hthe report that im hitting my foe heavy and no damage is taken... /ray c I'll point my mates to this eloquent posting when they say this game looks too complicated.
Docteur Xentav Minmatar Varietas Acquisition	Posted - 2007.12.13 04:26:00 - [29]
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.13 05:48:00 - [30] Originally by: Ray Cald Originally by: Alowishus Tell me more about your life philosophies. Well quite simple treet ppl like u want to be treeted u self. Thats whay i dont do pvp, cuse there is a person behind that ship u blowing up and pod for fun/adrinalin ruch or what ever make them tick that most likely having a bad day. Do you feel bad when you play against other people and win in other games as well or is it just Eve? It's like playing chess with someone and then refuse to put their king in check mate, because of fear they might get upset. It's just a game. It's not personal (and if people take it personally, they really shouldn't be playing). One day you win and someone else loses. Another day you lose and they win. Why play a game where the main purpose is blowing up other people's make-believe space ships over the internet (while they try to blow up yours) and then refuse to do it?
Kyra Felann Gallente Red Eye .Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.13 06:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Ray Cald yes i can belive so, but im not a pvp person i just fly missions against npc cuse of my life philosofy and rely hate pv p, this is truly a dark day for mission runners like my self. guess its back to the cruismissiles then. Still it dont explane the whay my log reporting massiv hitts on my foe and nothing happens. /ray LMAO I hope you're joking. PvP is against your life "philosofy"?
Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.13 08:09:00 - [32] I respekt auther ppl opinions and I would like to be treeted with the same respekt as I shown. When given a question I anser it with my opinion on things and I do take things personal cuse I cant change who I am. Ther is more ways then one to play this game, like the pvp I plan my actions and test new builds to be more effectiv when i do a mission but this topic was not about me but about the change in torpedos. I cant change that, but I was giving my opinion about it and I still think that the torpedo should been resolved like the heavy assault missil. That way the pve and pvp bouth get what they want. Can some one tell me if unguided weapon system like torpedos misses on long range? Cuse i never seen that happen and maby that is the way to go to make them less powerful. /ray
JoCool MASS	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:13:00 - [33] Get ready for the forum predators Ray, they're on your trail Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.13 09:55:00 - [34] Originally by: Hannobaal Do you feel bad when you play against other people and win in other games as well or is it just Eve? It's like playing chess with someone and then refuse to put their king in check mate, because of fear they might get upset. A few differences that come to mind regarding chess, or any other game like that include: -pieces are free in chess, i.e. you invest no time in getting your pieces at the start of each match. -pieces are equal in chess, save for white getting the first move. -nobody just wants to move pieces around on the board, i.e. everybody agrees on the goal of the game, i.e. there is no PvE in chess. -1v1 is honored in chess, in fact, 1v2+ is not possible in chess
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 10:05:00 - [35] Originally by: Qui Shon A few differences that come to mind regarding chess, or any other game like that include: -pieces are free in chess, i.e. you invest no time in getting your pieces at the start of each match. My first piece in EVE was free. They gave me a free ibis. I had to work quite hard to get it upgraded, much like getting a pawn to the other side in a chess game. But I think it was worth the effort. Quote: -pieces are equal in chess, save for white getting the first move. Starting points are equal. Pieces are not. Your queen pwns my pawn, but y'know, sometimes my knight is more use, because of how it moves. Quote: -nobody just wants to move pieces around on the board, i.e. everybody agrees on the goal of the game, i.e. there is no PvE in chess. You have obviously never tried doing chess puzzles. Quote: -1v1 is honored in chess, in fact, 1v2+ is not possible in chess Oh man, my knights are always getting ganked by pawn wolfpacks. And they're always blobbing my king. It's just totally unfair, I think they should be dueling my king with their king, and because we're the same speed, I can move away and stay away from them all the time. EVE is very like a strategy game such as chess. Many decisions are strategic in their nature. The difference is, that in chess, you're the FC, and all the pieces do exactly what you tell them, within their constraints. In EVE, you can FC all you like, but the player flying the pawn, might just whinge and moan. And some days, you get 16 pawns, others you get 4 queens and a couple of knights. The challenge is that everyone starts from the same point, and has thus choices about what 'pieces' they'll be bringing to an engagement. The challenge is thus in being able to deal with a the different situations, in much the same way as a lategame in chess - the early chess game, the openings are documented and well known, because there are few of them. Lategame board states on the other hand, are extremely varied, and thus it's interesting. In EVE, we just skip to the mid-endgame, because it's there that the variation and interesting bits kick in. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Neon Razor Caldari Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.12.13 10:06:00 - [36] everyone is involved in PVP in eve. selling your 10 untis of trit on the market is pvp and blowing up someones new carrier is pvp even renting an office boils down to PVP. the game is based on PVP but that does not mean the same to everyone some people get they kicks out of undercutting people on the market place or manipultating prices that results in ripples in the market for weeks. PVE is just a way of isk being put into the eve universe and is the reason why things are getting more expensive due to massive inflation. CCP should decrease rat rewards to get control of inflation. Oh and to stick on subject Torps are now better than before. If you want to train a race that is sure not to get nerfed go amarr. I hear people say they are crap but they are only the ones who dont know any better There is no moral difference between a Stealth bomber and a suicide bomber. They both kill innocent people for political reasons.
Neon Razor Caldari Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.12.13 10:08:00 - [37] Edited by: Neon Razor on 13/12/2007 10:08:48 Originally by: James Lyrus LOTS OF STUFF THAT MAKES FOR A GOOD READ. WOW that all makes sense well done. There is no moral difference between a Stealth bomber and a suicide bomber. They both kill innocent people for political reasons.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:18:00 - [38] Edited by: Qui Shon on 13/12/2007 11:21:42 Originally by: James Lyrus My first piece in EVE was free. ... Good posting. (Not sarcasm) I also start out with the maximum size fleet, not the minimum, and there is such a thing as a maximum size fleet. My losses or wins don't carry over to the next match, and I don't revert back to an Ibis, or any lesser fleet, after a loss. This is probably one of the two biggest differences. Your analogy to getting the pawn across is weak in this regard. Viewing your entire EVE "career" as a single match doesn't really work, for a lot of reasons. I don't think I need to get into that here? Chess puzzles, yeah, good point. Nobody shows up to gank me halfway through the puzzle though. This would be the other key difference, I am free to choose how I want to play it, without interference. Mind you, I'm not crusading against PvP(-PPPP) in EVE, I just think the comparison to chess is not very good.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:31:00 - [39] Its impressive to see a torp "nerf" thread go in such a positive way, no flaming, all good suggestions, and even an excellent discussion. On the original topic, alot of caldari pilots will final discover cruise missles. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Wideen Eon Project	Posted - 2007.12.13 11:32:00 - [40] you should rly be using cruise missiles for missioning anyways... try it Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:49:00 - [41] As with all analogies, the chess analogy breaks down. But at the end of the day, EVE is a multi-player strategy game. It's got all the traditional elements of resource management, unit morale, supply lines and logistics, mobility, intel/recon, and even politics. It's why I really love this game - there is just nothing else that does it as well. I'm a big fan of real time strategy games. In EVE, you take the role of a single unit. You don't always get to be the guy in charge of the fleet, but sometimes you're in charge of the squad. Other times you're just a scout, watching a gate. But your 'units' don't automatically do what you tell them. They have 'real' intelligence, rather than the AI you get in Supreme Commander, or C&C. They're also capable of autonomous decision making, routefinding, at actually deciding that you're a bit of a donkey, and they don't want to follow you. This makes it complicated, it makes it varied, it makes it interesting. You never get to retry a fight, because there's _always_ something different next time, even if it's just both sides learning from previous mistakes. And your ships, your modules, your ammo, even 'your' NPCs, ore, space, supply lines, stations, starbases, and MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL your friends, corpmates, allies, and wing men are all things you can and should manage to full effectiveness. Trust is a vitally valuable commodity that takes some real time and effort to regain if lost. And it's all these things that make EVE what it is. PvE IS relevant. It's a source of revenue, modules, and market demand. Shutting down PvEers doesn't help EVE, any more than stopping industrialists making new ships, or covops pilots from scouting. However to complain that PvP is 'not something you want in EVE' is rather like asking them to remove the mines from minesweeper. Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn Its impressive to see a torp "nerf" thread go in such a positive way, no flaming, all good suggestions, and even an excellent discussion. On the original topic, alot of caldari pilots will final discover cruise missles. TBH I've used cruises, and I've used torps for PvE. The difference is almost negligable. The real reason I used torps, was because I thought the explosion effects looked and sounded cooler. And because torps were a little better at encouraging someone who wanted to come and 'explain' PVP to me whilst missioning, that actually I knew a bit about it, and someone else might benefit more from their tuition. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Ray Cald	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:21:00 - [42] The differens in damage/sec is not so big perhaps betwin torps amd cruis but i found them more effectiv against regenerating battleships cuse of it's consentrated damage.think it was 100hm more/a shot. I started out with cruis missiles so switching back to them is no problem as long as they dont make them into a shortrange system too. /ray
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:27:00 - [43] Originally by: Ray Cald The differens in damage/sec is not so big perhaps betwin torps amd cruis but i found them more effectiv against regenerating battleships cuse of it's consentrated damage.think it was 100hm more/a shot. I started out with cruis missiles so switching back to them is no problem as long as they dont make them into a shortrange system too. /ray You are entirely correct. Torps pop high regen battleships faster. However cruises save a lot of time popping everything from BC on down, because of their lower explosion radius, so the difference is fairly negligable. I've do most missions faster in a nighthawk than I do in a raven, despite having about half the 'paper' dps. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.13 16:40:00 - [44] Edited by: Hannobaal on 13/12/2007 16:45:05 Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Hannobaal Do you feel bad when you play against other people and win in other games as well or is it just Eve? It's like playing chess with someone and then refuse to put their king in check mate, because of fear they might get upset. A few differences that come to mind regarding chess, or any other game like that include: -pieces are free in chess, i.e. you invest no time in getting your pieces at the start of each match. -pieces are equal in chess, save for white getting the first move. -nobody just wants to move pieces around on the board, i.e. everybody agrees on the goal of the game, i.e. there is no PvE in chess. -1v1 is honored in chess, in fact, 1v2+ is not possible in chess Congratulations on completely missing the point. Take any game (with more than one human player), with any game mechanics imaginable, and the principle remains the same. It's a game and you play to win. What I mean, it isn't evil or mean to blow up someone else's ship. You're just playing a game and winning, that's all.

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