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MongWen Farmer Killers United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:46:00 - [31] Originally by: Noodle Pastaman Get rid of war dec's full stop. The vast majority of people who play EVE want consensual only PVP (most people live their entire lives in hi sec) yeah, why not just change all systems in empire to 1.0 sec, and make it so that you cant shoot players that are in 1.0 while you are at it.... no it will not happen, and iirc it is High sec that most of the war decs are.... Opinions are my opinions. They do not reflect view of UCAM, if it is not stated
Vadimik	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:46:00 - [32] Originally by: MongWen Originally by: Vadimik a) disband yeah, but that whod be the last way out for active corps, for me regardless if i am in an alliance or not, id rather try to fight first. Originally by: Vadimik b) remain docked Station camping is used to much sadly. Originally by: Vadimik c) try to counter-attack that whod have been what most players that thinks they can defend them self will do. there are also other options. 1. Talk with the ceo/diplo of the ones that decs you, in some cases it will work. 2. Get friends to help out, by decing the ones that deced you, that will turn the tail in some cases. 3. Hire people to fight the ones that deced you... it gets used alot. 4. Surrender, granted that might be the last action that can be done And as I said, under the modern wardec system, you can't counter-attack. All you can do is try to defend you ships, but not counter-attack, unless your enemy is honorable enought to gather up in one place, face you, and end the wardec if you manage to defeat them. I does not matter if you have friends or mercs, not in the slightest, because your enemy has no assets open to counter-attack. That is the problem with wardec. Wardec'ed corp wants to end the wardec, not to grow an oversized e-peen by getting some killmails on the attackers. And unless the is a way for the target corp to force an end to the wardec, people will disband. Because, once again, they don't want to "win", they want to end the wardec.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:47:00 - [33] War declaring is only for high sec since in 0.0 you can just shoot them anyway --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Blackjack Turner Caldari Inverted Awareness	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:49:00 - [34] The 24 hour timer sounds like the best idea. The main obstacle is deciding if it begins at the first notice of the war dec, or after the war actually starts. CCP themselves, as stated previously, makes this option viable due to the way that they handle corps leaving alliances during a war. There is a 24 hour timer in which the corp is still a target. It takes a corp 48 hours to dec another corp, the first 24 is silent in that it's the timer reserved for the internal corp vote. So again, it needs to be decided at what point you'd implement the timer.
C Black Gallente BLACK CARTEL	Posted - 2007.12.13 12:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Vadimik Originally by: MongWen Originally by: Vadimik a) disband yeah, but that whod be the last way out for active corps, for me regardless if i am in an alliance or not, id rather try to fight first. Originally by: Vadimik b) remain docked Station camping is used to much sadly. Originally by: Vadimik c) try to counter-attack that whod have been what most players that thinks they can defend them self will do. there are also other options. 1. Talk with the ceo/diplo of the ones that decs you, in some cases it will work. 2. Get friends to help out, by decing the ones that deced you, that will turn the tail in some cases. 3. Hire people to fight the ones that deced you... it gets used alot. 4. Surrender, granted that might be the last action that can be done And as I said, under the modern wardec system, you can't counter-attack. All you can do is try to defend you ships, but not counter-attack, unless your enemy is honorable enought to gather up in one place, face you, and end the wardec if you manage to defeat them. I does not matter if you have friends or mercs, not in the slightest, because your enemy has no assets open to counter-attack. That is the problem with wardec. Wardec'ed corp wants to end the wardec, not to grow an oversized e-peen by getting some killmails on the attackers. And unless the is a way for the target corp to force an end to the wardec, people will disband. Because, once again, they don't want to "win", they want to end the wardec. I have to ask....did you get your ship handed to you in a nice little wrapped up package. Yes you can ATTACK. do you have a gun or drone? And where is the War dec'ed assest or the war dec'er assets....safe in station. And yes it matters if you have friends....And merc for hire can make sure you play free if you are careful. So again...who handed you your a$$ in a bag? C Black Making new sign curently....Look back later...i am working on something cool... Looking for all old friend of Wishsong Corp. eVe Mail me. C Black
C Black Gallente BLACK CARTEL	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:20:00 - [36] update: war started at 0330 game time...now is 1318 started out 41 targets.............7 targets now Making new sign curently....Look back later...i am working on something cool... Looking for all old friend of Wishsong Corp. eVe Mail me. C Black
Ghaelsto Kakram	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:29:00 - [37] As long you're not griefing some mining nubs you're my hero. Those poor sweatshop dudes need entertainment too. Besides they prolly have high enough standing to suicide gank you a couple of times.
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.12.13 13:40:00 - [38] While it's not an exploit, it's surely a crappy tactic. Unfortunately, it's within game mechanics and is a legal way out of fighting. Join MacroIntel!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:15:00 - [39] Edited by: Le Skunk on 13/12/2007 14:20:31 Originally by: Gaven Blands In a brazen misquoting of Oveur. Eve is supposed to be a cold harsh place. ... You mean ive been caining CCP Wrangler all this time for that hilarious quote and it wasnt by him slaps forehead The cold hard universe is a bloody farce as ive said MANY times before. This is just another extension of that. However, one of the 'tinfoil rumors'... that of CCP protecting isk farmers (a rumor I have previously seen as absurd) seems to be gaining some creedence. Warp Core Stabs II, Concords insta cap drain, scanner nerfs, and now war dec protection. If CCP dont make a stand on the war dec issue, they can effectively kiss goodbye to any form of a characters responsibility for his actions. Merc corps will become little more then a slight annoyance. You can get an alt with corporation management and ethnic relations right out of the box. Wardecced by a merc corp? Fire up a new alt. Drop roles. Select All corp hanger items. Transfer. Apply to next corp. Done and Dusted. Combined with CCPS impending suicide gank nerf - you have the holy grail of the WOW whiners. PVP flagging. SKUNK
Oesophagus	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:15:00 - [40] Corp hopping is kind of normal. The usual trick is to have a separate corp to go to if you want to ship items from empire to 0.0 alliance territory (rejoining alliance corp at the border). Conversely the attacking side can use war dec hop to get into a system as neut, join a war corp and then suddenly attack. Since it works both ways it is just a normal game mechanic. It only messes your corp history for a bit but who cares.
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:16:00 - [41] Hey skunk where is your uber signature?, i kind of liked it :-)
Barron Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:22:00 - [42] While I salute your cause, the fact is, you can't win them all. Take the loss as a lesson and adapt. Keep in mind, too, you're just a small dent in their overall operations. They operate 23/7, you get what, four, five hours a day on them? You're causing some bruising, but the efficiency of mission running means you're not even slowing them down in the long run.
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:34:00 - [43] I have a honest question for C Black and the others in this thread that support locking people into a war'dec for an in determinant amount of time. Basically why? Why is in necessary to force people to fight you and/or loose time/energy/assets in a war they want no part of? Isn't it enough that you might have ruined their play time in EVE by making them leave a corp they might have enjoyed being in? People leaving a corp that has had war declared on them is already a victory. They ceded that you win and essentially surrendered. The difference I see is they didn't have to go through the one sided fight and watching their ship explode. The mission of non-consensual PvP has been accomplished seeing as that mission does not specify in what form the PvP must come in. Now you might point out that C Black's intended targets are ISK farmers, but any change made to the war system will also effect more legitimate players. How is it equitable to have legitimate players punished for the actions of ISK farmers?
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:37:00 - [44] Edited by: Le Skunk on 13/12/2007 14:37:57 Originally by: djenghis jan Hey skunk where is your uber signature?, i kind of liked it :-) If this is what your talking about its back for a limited time by special request Skunk
djenghis jan Amarr Debiloff's Vanguard	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:47:00 - [45] Yeah this is the one, it rules :-) Do you have a link to the original picture? I promise not to make a sig out of it....
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:47:00 - [46] Originally by: Nur Vadenn I have a honest question for C Black and the others in this thread that support locking people into a war'dec for an in determinant amount of time. Basically why? Why is in necessary to force people to fight you and/or loose time/energy/assets in a war they want no part of? Isn't it enough that you might have ruined their play time in EVE by making them leave a corp they might have enjoyed being in? People leaving a corp that has had war declared on them is already a victory. They ceded that you win and essentially surrendered. The difference I see is they didn't have to go through the one sided fight and watching their ship explode. The mission of non-consensual PvP has been accomplished seeing as that mission does not specify in what form the PvP must come in. Now you might point out that C Black's intended targets are ISK farmers, but any change made to the war system will also effect more legitimate players. How is it equitable to have legitimate players punished for the actions of ISK farmers? Because its supposed to be a cold hard universe. Its supposed to be an immersive realistic (ish) game. ITs supposed to be a futuristic world of conflict. 95% of ships flown in this game have big feck off missile launchers and guns on them. Its a war game. And its all made totally farcical when someone can defeat 1000 warships by changeing their corp name from "carebears1 ltd" to "carebears2 ltd" SKUNK
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:50:00 - [47] Disbanding a corp and reforming it with the same members to make a wardec disappear IS an exploit. It's an action that can be done at will and will remove a wardec on your corp with nothing that can be done to combat it. GMs ruled this an exploit years ago and unless that policy has been changed (which I very much doubt as the loophole still functions exactly the same way), the GM that responded to you was wrong. GMs are wrong sometimes, esclate to a senior GM and make sure to mention that this corp disbands and reforms again to get rid of your wardec. That's the actual exploit here. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:52:00 - [48] Edited by: Le Skunk on 13/12/2007 14:54:40 Originally by: Nyphur Disbanding a corp and reforming it with the same members to make a wardec disappear IS an exploit. It's an action that can be done at will and will remove a wardec on your corp with nothing that can be done to combat it. GMs ruled this an exploit years ago and unless that policy has been changed (which I very much doubt as the loophole still functions exactly the same way), the GM that responded to you was wrong. GMs are wrong sometimes, esclate to a senior GM and make sure to mention that this corp disbands and reforms again to get rid of your wardec. That's the actual exploit here. This isn't the first time ive heard of a GM ruling this as non exploit. But yes escalate it to a senior GM and report the results if you can be bothered, as its a fairly fundamental lynchpin of the game if you ask me. Originally by: djenghis jan Yeah this is the one, it rules :-) Do you have a link to the original picture? I promise not to make a sig out of it.... Sorry mate i have no idea. I googled some phrase looking for a picture of a 'real man' after everyone kept shouting at us in local about 'real men fight in 0.0' etc. Cant remember the phrase or webpage :( SKUNK
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:55:00 - [49] Quote: How would you like to spend 30 mil on a set of wars to find out that they jump before you can get the dec going and shoot anyone Look m8, this is what happens when you war dec helpless carebears, Like it or lump it its the risk you take.
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 14:58:00 - [50] Originally by: Le Skunk This isn't the first time ive heard of a GM ruling this as non exploit. I know, the alarming frequency with which GMs are just plain wrong these days is getting a little disturbing. To get the correct response, all you have to do is escalate to a senior GM but really, a GM should not give a response unless they're 100% sure or have looked it up somewhere. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:00:00 - [51] wait! they hoping around and GM not dealing with this? This is bull! again it seem CCP doesnt want to stop this then if its clear they taking the **** Trinity Corporate Services
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:06:00 - [52] Originally by: northwesten wait! they hoping around and GM not dealing with this? This is bull! again it seem CCP doesnt want to stop this then if its clear they taking the **** Not really m8 just they occasionaly make mistakes unlike you it seems.
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:08:00 - [53] Originally by: Le Skunk Edited by: Le Skunk on 13/12/2007 14:49:50 Because its supposed to be a cold hard universe. Its supposed to be an immersive realistic (ish) game. ITs supposed to be a futuristic world of conflict. 95% of ships flown in this game have big feck off missile launchers and guns on them. War ships the size of moons are floating around out there. Its a war game. And its all made totally farcical when someone can defeat 1000 warships by changeing their corp name from "carebears1 ltd" to "carebears2 ltd" SKUNK So is it your contention that non-combatants simply have no place in EVE? Where in the developer literature does it say that? I thought it said you can be a non-combatant if you realize that bad stuff can happen. Having to leave a corp you like because of a war is something I would classify as bad. What seems farcical to me is that a war is really a no-win situation for the targets of aggression unless they were looking for a fight in the first place. If a non-combatant industrial group is the target of a war'dec they can: a.) Fight b.) Hire mercenaries to fight for them c.) Negotiate with no assurance an accord will be honored d.) Disband their corporation In the event of any of the first three choices you're essentially giving the aggressors what they want. You're either giving them easy targets and explosions or the ISK to war'dec the next group of industrialist. If you don't want to encourage or perpetuate this series of events you're left with the disbanding option. Not being able to play how you want to seems cold and harsh doesn't it?
RoadKill101 Gallente Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:12:00 - [54] i dont quite understand the complaint here, isnt the war dec all about breaking up that corperation... so if they choose to abandon and make another, thats their initiative... (if spelt right) ---------------------------------- llama's rule!
RoadKill101 Gallente Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:16:00 - [55] Actually reflecting on your 'solution' after abandoning, why not just make a charge? say err.. 500m give or take, for abandoning due to war and trying to reestablish yourself back as a corp.. this could last for 1/2months post war abandoning so it stops all this silly crap you are mad about ---------------------------------- llama's rule!
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:17:00 - [56] Scratches head.... They can't have any roles if they keep corp hopping, they might as well be in an un-dec-able NPC corp. Basically war decs only catch those that are lazy and in-attentive, and can't leave/don't want to leave their corp. Basically in Eve, you can avoid wars, an 'entire' corp shouldn't really be able to jump corps though. Individual players you cannot stop. On the other hand their corp must not mean very much to them so there's probably a waste deccing them, but 24 to 28 kills a day means they are total n00b players and they have finally worked out the only way to avoid death. (And Eve is all about avoiding loss).
Nyphur Pillowsoft Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:17:00 - [57] Originally by: Nur Vadenn So is it your contention that non-combatants simply have no place in EVE? Where in the developer literature does it say that? I thought it said you can be a non-combatant if you realize that bad stuff can happen. Having to leave a corp you like because of a war is something I would classify as bad. Tough. That's how the game is played. For those that don't want to be in a corp that is vulnerable to wardecs, NPC corps are a perfectly viable option and indeed the only option. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Nur Vadenn Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:29:00 - [58] Edited by: Nur Vadenn on 13/12/2007 15:30:26 Originally by: Nyphur Tough. That's how the game is played. For those that don't want to be in a corp that is vulnerable to wardecs, NPC corps are a perfectly viable option and indeed the only option. Right, your options as a non-combatant are live as a NPC corporation member. A widely frowned upon state of affairs to be in, or move on to a corporation not in conflict or the target of a conflict. This seems fair enough. So why the issue with staying in a player run corporation, but avoiding those currently at war? In my opinion the non-consenting part of PvP has a two way street. You can choose to attack me within the game mechanics without asking me anywhere and at anytime sans me being docked. Conversely I can choose to evade and not fight you or anyone else if I decide to. The issue is not whether one wants to be vulnerable to war'decs. Instead its a question of if one can evade a war'dec without first having the attacker consenting for you to do so. That sounds like non-consentual PvP to me.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:44:00 - [59] Originally by: Nur Vadenn a.) Fight b.) Hire mercenaries to fight for them c.) Negotiate with no assurance an accord will be honored d.) Disband their corporation In the event of any of the first three choices you're essentially giving the aggressors what they want. You're either giving them easy targets and explosions or the ISK to war'dec the next group of industrialist. If you don't want to encourage or perpetuate this series of events you're left with the disbanding option. Not being able to play how you want to seems cold and harsh doesn't it? Not being able to negotiate a settlement due to "I don't negotiate with terrorists" attitude sounds just like 'not being able to play' to me. It is sad that CCP have agreed with the bears. Resolving your own problems should be the paramount game concept of Eve. The tools in the box for resolving your own problems are many and varied, but you're not expected to have to use them. At the very least, you can BORE your opponent to death by sending wave after wave of Ibisses at them. That never fails, but CCP spare you the ordeal of having to think that one up for yourself. It's pathetic. It said Cold and Harsh on the box. Like so many other things, it was a lie. Give us perma death while we're at it.
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.12.13 15:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Nur Vadenn Edited by: Nur Vadenn on 13/12/2007 15:30:26 Originally by: Nyphur Tough. That's how the game is played. For those that don't want to be in a corp that is vulnerable to wardecs, NPC corps are a perfectly viable option and indeed the only option. Right, your options as a non-combatant are live as a NPC corporation member. A widely frowned upon state of affairs to be in, or move on to a corporation not in conflict or the target of a conflict. This seems fair enough. So why the issue with staying in a player run corporation, but avoiding those currently at war? In my opinion the non-consenting part of PvP has a two way street. You can choose to attack me within the game mechanics without asking me anywhere and at anytime sans me being docked. Conversely I can choose to evade and not fight you or anyone else if I decide to. The issue is not whether one wants to be vulnerable to war'decs. Instead its a question of if one can evade a war'dec without first having the attacker consenting for you to do so. That sounds like non-consentual PvP to me. and WoW is that way --> Sorry but bull! this is eve its harsh and tuff! deal with it and join an alliance or move to another place. Also corp hopping to me is lamest thing to do just not get a fight! whats funny if the the hostile corp will keep going after them! so how long will the corp change keep happening? For me i think the cost of creating a corp should be 200mil That will stop corp hoping! this is EVE not WoW Trinity Corporate Services

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