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Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.12.14 07:26:00 - [1] Edited by: Pithecanthropus on 14/12/2007 07:28:24 Okay... to be an FC is hard. I admit that. You got a fleet to run, the trust people put in you, and your reputation on the line. But please, let me say this... if someone gives you advice, why do you simply disregard it and do your own thing? Do you think you are less of a person if you agree with a lonely noob in the fleet chat? Why does an FC always respond to advice with "Well, (INSERT NAME) I invite you to FC next time" ... or "How about you step up and FC next time?" ... of course if I wanted to, I would... but since you are and FC its YOUR job. You made the choice, good for you... I'm not disgusted with you, I simply want what is best. And if you can't take advice, if you can't make instinctive decisions, and if you hesitate... then maybe YOU shouldn't be an FC. I have had great flights with FCs and I have had horrible experiences. I had one guy refuse to jump in a system with a well outnumbered gang to help save his alliance member, because he claimed the alliance member shouldn't of been there in the first place. I've had others refuse to risk a fight cuz they rather have them run away, which is a win for us, cuz they only killed a few of us. I've had others sit and wait... wait... hesitate... afraid to do anything aggressive, but kept chasing the hostile fleet only to watch them for 10 jumps as we stayed 1 jump behind. Being conservative is good... but being TOO conservative is so fricken frustrating when 30 players are following your orders for hours and we don't see blood. Grow a pair... you have the numbers... make a move, the second you hesitate and over think is when I turn around and go home. Listen to people in your gang... and fight... fight. Letting hostiles roam your space is NOT the answer... its NOT an option. So.. can I do better? I probably could. But just because I could, doesn't mean I should. You're the one that obviously wants to do it... so, do it right.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2007.12.14 07:34:00 - [2] main.. get.. Internal forums.. .go...
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.12.14 07:38:00 - [3] Disclosure: I am not an FC...just some observations Everyone styles themself a general. Everyone assumes that if people just did it their way things would work out great. A general cannot take advice from every person in the fleet who thinks they know how things aught to be run. It would be chaos. In the end you have to trust your FCs. Presumably they understand the goals of the alliance and if that means chasing someone but not engaging it appropriate then so be it. At the end of the day you as a pilot can decide to not fly with a given FC. If that FC fails to achieve good results consistently then the corp/alliance should toss them. If you can do better go for it. No doubt you will run across some cruddy FCs. Bound to happen but it should sort itself eventually.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.12.14 07:47:00 - [4] I do put my trust in the FCs... that is what makes it so frustrating. I do what I'm told, because its better to do exactly the same as a group... if we don't... if we seperate... we'll die. So yes... following your FC is the smart thing to do. But you can be sure that after the op, there will be a short Q&A if I'm disappointed. It's a game, and in the end we all want to have fun. Not sure how other alliances are run or what kinds of means they have to report FC behaviors... but each fleet is its own situation. If I feel you did a bad job, I'll say something. I just find it funny they get so defensive on a little advice. Okay, I can't lump all FCs that way... but you can be sure my alliance is going to have to find some answers.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.14 07:50:00 - [5] i don't see how this is relevant to general discussion, it seems more like a personal message to whoever your current FC is. as the 2nd post said, internal forum or evemail might be a little better for this than using the forums as a public evemail correspondance that is personal in nature.
Detrol Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.14 13:58:00 - [6] Edited by: Detrol on 14/12/2007 14:00:25 Your FC is right you know... why don't YOU step up to the plate and FC. He made the choice to be FC, he tells you what to do. If you don't like it, ask for FC next time there's a gang and have it go your way. Then you'll see how many advice you get from others saying you should do this, and that, and then this again. Won't take long till you tell those guys to FC themselves if they know it better. You can always discuss actions after the op, an FC should be open for that but during the OP, he decides. Give him info on the situation if you know something he doesn't but don't tell him what to do with his fleet. On another note: advice only turns out to be good when things go right. When he follows your advice and it goes terribly wrong, can he blame it on you or should he still take responsibility as FC? Will you say to him then "I'm only a noob man, what do I know, you're the FC!"
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Pithecanthropus I had one guy refuse to jump in a system with a well outnumbered gang to help save his alliance member, because he claimed the alliance member shouldn't of been there in the first place. In this case he's right. There is no reason to put the whole fleet at risk because of one person doing something they shouldn't have done. It is pretty simply. When don't do things like that, you do them at your own risk. As far as advice, there is a time and a place for it, and there is a time and a place to listen. On top of that, there is a way to do it and a way not to. If it possibly that "Advice" sounds demeaning, when it is mearly a suggestion. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Blutreiter Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Why does an FC always respond to advice with "Well, (INSERT NAME) I invite you to FC next time" ... or "How about you step up and FC next time?" ... I had one guy refuse to jump ... I've had others refuse to risk a fight ... I've had others sit and wait... wait... hesitate... afraid to do anything aggressive... So.. can I do better? I probably could. But just because I could, doesn't mean I should. You're the one that obviously wants to do it... so, do it right. You answered your own question kinda. If everybody starts to argue what the best course of action would be then nobody will follow the direct lead. Do you know that old saying... ..."opinions are like aholes, everybody's got one" =) If you got an FC, do what he says and for gods sake, don't express your opinions on every move. That guy should be FC for a reason and if hes doing a bad job, it's your fault in electing him in the first place, but unless everybody acts coordinated, every FC has a hard time. Only exception would be trainee FCs. To quote yourself, grow a pair (sic) and put up with it. Cogito ergo boom** - I think i'll blow sht up*
Duncan Bannatyne BioDyne Industries	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:24:00 - [9] I read your first paragraph only to get an overview, so excuse me if i miss the point. I'm no FC, personally i cant do it effectively in comparison to the FC's i know. However if someone shouts up with an idea and its ignored, most often its the fact that in thier experiance its not the best course of action. As you stated, your a loley noob and they are (hopefully) not, and have done said situation many times before and know how to handle it. If things went wrong, hey people make mistakes. Duncan Bannatyne The Dragons Are Taking Over...
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Pithecanthropus fc stuff Ok couple of things: 1. The moment you x up you accept the FC as your FC at that moment 2. You have feedback for an FC then stick to the golden rules; 2a. DONOT under any circumstance, suggest, critize or anything else DURING an op 2b. DONOT under any circumstance, suggest, critize or anything else RIGHT AFTER an op 2c. KEEP your opionion to yourself during an OP or right after. 2d. His/her orders are not to question DURING an OP, no exceptions. 2e. DO convo the FC when he's not FC-ing and not still in war mode, THEN make suggestions, etc, be smart about it and polite. Why the F... did you F-ing do F-ing that making me loose my expensive Mofo ship with your stupid call, will only get you the response; You do it next time yourself then if you know so well. Same goes for not acting accordinly to 2a, 2b, 2c and 2d. Any good FC will listen to you and respond if you obey those rules. - - - Originally by: CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:31:00 - [11] Your FC is right. You want to do things differently, step up and FC next time, or go through whatever FC training your corp/alliance provides. You'll probably end up doing exactly what your FC is doing now.
Grimm Myn Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:35:00 - [12] I was a long time WoW player and endgame raider and reading this reminded me of those days. Raid Leaders = Fleet Commanders = Chief-In-Command. What got the most on my nerves was all the people bothering the RL/FC with small daft questions/comments/general crap which didnt help the raid as a whole since he had to answer every single whisper. What i learnt is there is a time and a place for everything, during a raid/operation, i suggest everyone shuts up and follows the simple raid/fleet hierarchy (think about some sports rules here to compare). The "normal" players are only allowed to speak to their direct leader (squad commander in this case) and only the sub-leaders may speak to the raid-leader, this will make sure the raid leader only gets the important info instead of trash no one cares about. IF you have a problem how the RL/FC does his job, write it down and open the conversation after the operation on your Corps forum. Dont just criticise but be constructive noting both positive and negative points. If he then jumps you and tells you to do it yourself next time, welcome to humanity where many people cannot accept they made a mistake nor can they accept a different opinion on how something could have been done. Just because someone does something differently to you doesnt automatically mean its wrong, its just different :)
Ho HsienKo	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:44:00 - [13] I think next time you are in a fleet and you see a course of action you wish to follow that the FC does not seem to like, you should go ahead and do it!! Don't forget to say in Fleet Chat "LEEEEERRROYYYYYYY JENKINSSSSSSS!!!" just before carrying it out though, just so they have a heads up as to what you are up to.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:49:00 - [14] There are few things more irritating than "armchair generals" (or FCs in this case). Get off your backside and lead an OP if you think you know better. If you can't do that then you may as well just shut up and accept that people aren't going to run their ops the way you think they should.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Disclosure: I am not an FC...just some observations Everyone styles themself a general. Everyone assumes that if people just did it their way things would work out great. A general cannot take advice from every person in the fleet who thinks they know how things aught to be run. It would be chaos. In the end you have to trust your FCs. Presumably they understand the goals of the alliance and if that means chasing someone but not engaging it appropriate then so be it. At the end of the day you as a pilot can decide to not fly with a given FC. If that FC fails to achieve good results consistently then the corp/alliance should toss them. If you can do better go for it. No doubt you will run across some cruddy FCs. Bound to happen but it should sort itself eventually. I don't. I'm well aware that I can't FC for toffee, and I'm very happy for someone else to do it. I contribute to the fleet by doing as I'm ordered, providing timely, useful intel and not pestering the FC. By all means supply advice to the FC, OP. But HE is the fleet commander. If he does not choose to take your advice, that's HIS decision. Supplying advice is one thing, but *****ing that your advice is not followed is back-seat driving and well deserves the "OK YOU do it next time". Supply intel, offer advice, then follow your orders. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.12.14 14:59:00 - [16] You are right this is an internal issue, but I still believe I have a right to voice my opinion about any FC I'm under command of. If they don't do the job well, they shouldn't be there. And my voice usually isn't the only voice. They are in a MILITARY command position, and I won't stand for confused, hesitant, and uncoordinated FCing. There are no wrong ways, there are only better ways. I don't care who you are or where you are at... All military officers give the command to go into battle when they can save someone... when they claim a player's own fault for dying, that's just the FC being too scared to do his job. You will get losses, and if you are afraid of that, move on, dont FC. Its a numbers game, and every moment I spoke of in the original post, we were well suited to fight and win. I'm not gonna wait for a blob or 3 times more ships... I won't sit and wait for officers to argue where to form up. Its become an embarrassment to where I live. As for why I don't FC... maybe I will... because from the complaints I see about this alliance's FC crew... its bad.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:03:00 - [17] The reason you have an FC in the first place is so you don't have to vote on everything you do. in most cases decisions needs to be made fast. and a quick bad decision is better than a right one made too late. IF the FC has to listen to everything everyone says then there is no point in having an FC
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Pithecanthropus You are right this is an internal issue, but I still believe I have a right to voice my opinion about any FC I'm under command of. If they don't do the job well, they shouldn't be there. And my voice usually isn't the only voice. They are in a MILITARY command position, and I won't stand for confused, hesitant, and uncoordinated FCing. There are no wrong ways, there are only better ways. I don't care who you are or where you are at... All military officers give the command to go into battle when they can save someone... when they claim a player's own fault for dying, that's just the FC being too scared to do his job. You will get losses, and if you are afraid of that, move on, dont FC. Its a numbers game, and every moment I spoke of in the original post, we were well suited to fight and win. I'm not gonna wait for a blob or 3 times more ships... I won't sit and wait for officers to argue where to form up. Its become an embarrassment to where I live. As for why I don't FC... maybe I will... because from the complaints I see about this alliance's FC crew... its bad. All I'm saying is that FCing is bloody hard work. When you have a gang of 40-60 people, you simply can't listen to each of them. It's not possible. And if the FC is having difficulties, then complaining and backseat driving is only going to make things worse. If you have lost faith in the FC, then leave gang (Just type "Sorry GTG bye" in gang chat) and head back home. All alliances have good, bad or just indifferent FCs; you will soon learn which are which. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Valan The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:14:00 - [19] I've been around a long time and sometimes people think because you have that you should be able to lead a fleet. I would make a terrible FC I leave it to others. Now I know what makes a good FC and I expect an FC to take constructive feedback but half the time its not worth the hassle so you just don't fly with them again. I also follow orders to the letter, I've come unstuck because of it but at the end of the day everyone makes mistakes and they don't do it on purpose. I'll pipe up in comms if I think its absolutely vital. ie. FC's overview is slow and we have hostile support in amongst the sniper fleet. The worst crime of all is hesitation. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Nuala Reece Caldari Starlancers Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Edited by: Pithecanthropus on 14/12/2007 07:28:24 Okay... to be an FC is hard. I admit that. You got a fleet to run, the trust people put in you, and your reputation on the line. You forgot discipline. Without that a fleet/gang quickly deteriorates into a shambles and then you're not FCing so much as passing time till you get everyone killed. Maybe it's an issue of timing - a good FC, in my opinion, would always listen to suggestions and advice no matter how long the person's been playing eve. But you should do this after an op. If everyone felt they could chip in with their advice mid operation there'd be no discipline and the gang is useless. If you don't like the way an FC is running his operation then you have 2 options - leave his gang and explain why afterwards, or stick with it and follow orders and analyse the results afterwards. And, as everyone's suggested already, if you think you can do better - lead a gang for yourself and prove it. If you're any good people will follow you and if you're not they won't. Starlancers http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/NualaReece/starlancers_ad.avi
Asestorian Domination.	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:32:00 - [21] If you think the FC made a bad call, then a little while after the op, send him a polite EVE-Mail stating that you thought this was the case and offering advice on what you would have done instead. You may say "he was a bad FC and not making decisions etc" but the point is, if he's a bad FC, and unable to make decisions, throwing more options at him is going to make it worse. Just go along with it during the op. If the FC asks for opinions, then give them, but otherwise you are a distraction. In fact, in most cases the FC hesitates because they are thinking about you. The last thing they want is to be the one that caused you to lose a ship. If in the middle of the op you come along and say "do this, do that", they may start to feel more under pressure because those they are leading don't think they are doing a good job. Again, this makes things worse, because they will hesitate more and more as they consider all the options and don't know which one to take to keep you happy. At the end of the day, whether the guy is a good FC or not, he made the effort to do one of the most demanding jobs in the game. If you think you are a better FC, prove that, lead a gang, and make everyone happy. You never know, maybe the current FC is waiting for someone to "grow a pair" and step up to take his job so he can get back to shooting people too. --- MOZO
Empyre Domestic Reform	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:32:00 - [22] 3 words, chain. of. command. in groups of people, the collective IQ goes down the more people there are. not to say people get stupid, it's just much harder to keep many people doing the same thing. letting the fc make the calls and not giving criticism while they are leading is detrimental. when other people start making suggestions, other people get confused and lose focus on who is leading and what is happening. this is usually followed by a few people falling behind, getting snagged in a dictor bubble, the gang splintering and falling apart, etc. and no, i'm not an fc.. i just observe a lot. The official goon buzz-kill.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:35:00 - [23] I'm always right, whether I'm FCing or not... Everyone else just has to accept that! I'm the best! It's kind of law... And everyone always does what I say... Then I log off just before everyone dies! Latest Video, Click Here!
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:46:00 - [24] Meh... FC's can't handle requests/advice during an op. If you lead an op of 40 people and all 40 people would give advice and expect it to be done that way you basicly get a lot of confusion and a totally ******** chat in which commands get drowned with "helpfull suggestions". What you can do is post on the forums suggesting changes in structure in the future, but making suggestions during an op is generally just plain bad. Also a lot of FC's don't really want that position but rather get it shoved up their asses because they show commitment and people generally trust that person. So step up to the plate if you think you are t3h pwnzor. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Hooch Flux Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:50:00 - [25] Edited by: Hooch Flux on 14/12/2007 15:50:44 Originally by: Pithecanthropus You are right this is an internal issue, but I still believe I have a right to voice my opinion about any FC I'm under command of. If they don't do the job well, they shouldn't be there. And my voice usually isn't the only voice. They are in a MILITARY command position, and I won't stand for confused, hesitant, and uncoordinated FCing. There are no wrong ways, there are only better ways. I don't care who you are or where you are at... All military officers give the command to go into battle when they can save someone... when they claim a player's own fault for dying, that's just the FC being too scared to do his job. You will get losses, and if you are afraid of that, move on, dont FC. Its a numbers game, and every moment I spoke of in the original post, we were well suited to fight and win. I'm not gonna wait for a blob or 3 times more ships... I won't sit and wait for officers to argue where to form up. Its become an embarrassment to where I live. As for why I don't FC... maybe I will... because from the complaints I see about this alliance's FC crew... its bad. If they are in a "Military Command Position" then you should respect that, whether you believe it or not. You questioning his orders or lack of orders during an operation in R/L would at least get you Court Marshall'd and in some Militaries, shot! (Obviously it's only a game, but it depends on how your FC plays it.) Is it possible that the FC was hesitating because he had orders or information you were not aware of? I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit... Only way to be sure!
Lisento Slaven Amarr Lisento and Miscellaneous Elk	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:53:00 - [26] Some FC's are ****'s (you do what I say or we kill you and kick you and you're not allowed to play this game anymore so gtfo). Some FC's are about having fun (and don't care if they die). Some FC's care too much about their kill-death ratio. Some FC's are too scared. Solution - join my corp! We don't have FC's...we just war dec things! =D --- Put in space whales!
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:55:00 - [27] In a combat situation any action is better than no action. If FC's followed every grunts advice nothing would get done, you cant run a fleet like that. It's the same basic principle behind military ranking. When the ranking officer says jump, the grunts should be too busy jumping to ask why.
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:13:00 - [28] dicussing things or evaluating things from the "noob" in the fleet takes brain processing power and also adds hesitation and/or doubt. I have a rule, have something to say about the wayt things are run? say it once the op is over.
Stanis Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:23:00 - [29] @OP and that's why you are not the fleet commander =) <-- YMCA 4TW!
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:58:00 - [30] @op you gotta be kidding... FC's generally study killborads and many other sources of intel , plus have a command channel on ts or whatever to listen to . which is why FC's are harsh over voice coms about opinion's . being an FC makes you responsible for the performance of your fleet and your members ships making it tough to decide on the appropriate course of action i find that most people who run off about we should do this we should do that are usually the same ones asking for destinations every 2 mins and where am i supposed to be every 5 mins . the simple rule is FC talks YOU listen . if the FC needs some perspective he knows who to ask . the best FC's will shoot down pilots who dont listen sometimes to make a point . i have been known to drop a good ol' STFU on ts from time to time . but like my bio says im a ruthless TS discipline enforcer . often time when FC says well if you think you can do better you lead the guy will shut up because know he has to prove it instead just running his mouth on the sidelines . things like this are the only thing that really bugs me in eve is all the pointless chatter people like to make in a OP because they feel that they should comment on every little thing they see . this is the main reason why i love ts so much ..THE KICK/BAN buttons .... beautifull . signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected]) why dont you just tell me ?

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