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Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.16 17:57:00 - [61] Originally by: Flurren Some sort of fix for the wolfs current armor resistances and switch the minnie ships range bonuses back to how they were. problem is, to fix the wolf, you must fix the muninn aswell since it suffers from the exact same problem. --- planetary interaction idea!
pyr8t Gods of War	Posted - 2007.12.16 18:42:00 - [62] Originally by: Grimpak AF's previous roles of anti-frigates can be totally overshadowed by better and cheaper options Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: pyr8t Show me where it is said Assault Frigates will be changed in the next patch. I am unaware of any official statements regarding this. And without an official statement this is all just wishful thinking. Devs almost only ever refered to a so called "boost patch" aka Trinity 1.1 which will come out somewhere early next year. That is for solutions of amarr issues, role of assault frigates and mostly all the other stuff that was asked. Of course nothing more specific, just the usual vague hints. So the main conclusion after 1 hour of dev talk is: "yes, all your questions we are onto it and will fix it with next patch mostly..". Not that they ever promised too much in the past. ^^ And again, I really adore Eve and like CCP, but don't do so much promises when you cannot fulfill the expectations. Or saying the truth like: "Yeah, we are aware of missing roles of assault frigates but so far we have other more urgent problems and don't know when we have time to adress this.". It makes yourself untrustworthy. Random nobody #3452 isn't a valid source of information. Exactly. I'm all for a discussion on improving Assault Frigates but please do not state as fact that changes will be made in the next patch when nothing official has been said to this effect. It only serves to raise peoples hopes, and then to let them down.
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2007.12.16 19:01:00 - [63] If the devs are going to boost the AF just messing around with their bonus like that ,i don¦t really see a point .What they need is some sort of a role.
me bored	Posted - 2007.12.16 20:09:00 - [64] Originally by: Flurren A properly fitted wolf at the very most can get to around 200 dps with a terrible tank (5k effective hp against barrage ammo and no rep ability) and all skills at V. If your battleship cant tank that then i pity you. I suggest you actually play the game instead of fighting all of your battles in EFT. Originally by: Flurren [list=i] 50% AB and 40% web resistance role bonus. What use are those bonuses to a harpy when it's sniping from 100km away as it should be? Each AF is specialized towards a fairly specific role and forcing an AB onto them would pigeon hole set-ups and rob them of their diversity. What about the ships with insufficient mids? Handing out more midslot would detract from racial flavour and is unlikely to happen no matter how you look at it.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.12.16 22:09:00 - [65] Good question, but then why do I see Battleship snipers fitting MWD's? Also if you jumped into a gate camp with a nice bubble, how do you get out without a speed mod? Please, try and use some imagination. Its not hard to see the use of a speed module on a sniper.
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:27:00 - [66] Originally by: me bored Originally by: Flurren A properly fitted wolf at the very most can get to around 200 dps with a terrible tank (5k effective hp against barrage ammo and no rep ability) and all skills at V. If your battleship cant tank that then i pity you. I suggest you actually play the game instead of fighting all of your battles in EFT. Originally by: Flurren [list=i] 50% AB and 40% web resistance role bonus. What use are those bonuses to a harpy when it's sniping from 100km away as it should be? Each AF is specialized towards a fairly specific role and forcing an AB onto them would pigeon hole set-ups and rob them of their diversity. What about the ships with insufficient mids? Handing out more midslot would detract from racial flavour and is unlikely to happen no matter how you look at it. A 50% AB boost makes ANY ship harder to hit no matter how you swing it since it can travel faster without increasing its sig radius. 40% web resistance makes any ship harder to catch because if you have a harpy sitting at 100km sniping at you, you dont just watch it, you do something about it so eventually that bonus is going to come in handy.
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.17 01:28:00 - [67] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Flurren Some sort of fix for the wolfs current armor resistances and switch the minnie ships range bonuses back to how they were. problem is, to fix the wolf, you must fix the muninn aswell since it suffers from the exact same problem. Thats not really a problem as i see it, thats a handy side-effect.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.17 02:07:00 - [68] Edited by: Grimpak on 17/12/2007 02:07:53 Originally by: Flurren Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Flurren Some sort of fix for the wolfs current armor resistances and switch the minnie ships range bonuses back to how they were. problem is, to fix the wolf, you must fix the muninn aswell since it suffers from the exact same problem. Thats not really a problem as i see it, thats a handy side-effect. how come? both ships have the same exact resistance holes, the same exact resistance boosts and both ships are clearly more directed to armor tanking. --- planetary interaction idea!
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.17 03:29:00 - [69] Originally by: me bored What use are those bonuses to a harpy when it's sniping from 100km away as it should be? Each AF is specialized towards a fairly specific role and forcing an AB onto them would pigeon hole set-ups and rob them of their diversity. What about the ships with insufficient mids? Handing out more midslot would detract from racial flavour and is unlikely to happen no matter how you look at it. Well, true, partially, regarding a AB bonus. I'd sooner just reduce the mass by a nice percentage to start with (something comparable to T1 frigs), because they horribly lack agility and MWD/AB speed is preety bad as well. That still wouldn't really be stepping on the toes of interceptors in any way, because they have even lower masses then T1 frigs and way higher base speeds. Furthermore, you have CPU problems fitting both the Enyo and the Wolf as well as being gimped for a lot of purposes by the two midslot layout. Amarr even have a one-midslot AF ;P They quite obviously need a fourth bonus. They're still going to have a lack of 'role' after that, but it'd be a start towards the direction of sucking less I think everyone can agree on. Rifters!
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.17 04:06:00 - [70] Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 17/12/2007 02:07:53 Originally by: Flurren Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Flurren Some sort of fix for the wolfs current armor resistances and switch the minnie ships range bonuses back to how they were. problem is, to fix the wolf, you must fix the muninn aswell since it suffers from the exact same problem. Thats not really a problem as i see it, thats a handy side-effect. how come? both ships have the same exact resistance holes, the same exact resistance boosts and both ships are clearly more directed to armor tanking. I meant that fixing the wolf would fix the muninn too which would be a nice bonus as the same fix could be applyed. I still dont know how though.
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.17 04:10:00 - [71] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: me bored What use are those bonuses to a harpy when it's sniping from 100km away as it should be? Each AF is specialized towards a fairly specific role and forcing an AB onto them would pigeon hole set-ups and rob them of their diversity. What about the ships with insufficient mids? Handing out more midslot would detract from racial flavour and is unlikely to happen no matter how you look at it. Well, true, partially, regarding a AB bonus. I'd sooner just reduce the mass by a nice percentage to start with (something comparable to T1 frigs), because they horribly lack agility and MWD/AB speed is preety bad as well. That still wouldn't really be stepping on the toes of interceptors in any way, because they have even lower masses then T1 frigs and way higher base speeds. Furthermore, you have CPU problems fitting both the Enyo and the Wolf as well as being gimped for a lot of purposes by the two midslot layout. Amarr even have a one-midslot AF ;P They quite obviously need a fourth bonus. They're still going to have a lack of 'role' after that, but it'd be a start towards the direction of sucking less I think everyone can agree on. If you lower than masses and increase agility then you probably cant also apply the role bonuses i mentioned for balance reasons. I dont know though, maybe that would be better. The enyo and wolf do need more cpu in any case and i believe i few other ships need a few more fitting stats in places too.
me bored	Posted - 2007.12.17 05:55:00 - [72] Edited by: me bored on 17/12/2007 05:57:57 Originally by: Nian Banks Also if you jumped into a gate camp with a nice bubble, how do you get out without a speed mod? By not being an idiot and jumping into it in the first place. This may come as something of a shock to you but speed mods are far from essential and perform poorly in many kinds of set-ups.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.17 09:41:00 - [73] Originally by: Flurren I meant that fixing the wolf would fix the muninn too which would be a nice bonus as the same fix could be applyed. I still dont know how though. oh. well yeah. having my muninn with thos 2 resistance holes plugged would mean more time in the battle field popping frigs and inties at 80km range --- planetary interaction idea!
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.17 09:55:00 - [74] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Flurren I meant that fixing the wolf would fix the muninn too which would be a nice bonus as the same fix could be applyed. I still dont know how though. oh. well yeah. having my muninn with thos 2 resistance holes plugged would mean more time in the battle field popping frigs and inties at 80km range Im only asking for one to be filled by the ships base resists lol. Basically EM needs to be lowered and either kinetic or explosive needs to be raised (it would be lovely if it was kinetic :P). That would put minnie armor resists somewhat on par with other races and mean you could fit one hardener and have much rounder resists rather than being virtually immune to EM damage but ripped apart by most projectile rounds and kinetic missiles. How about 75% explosive and 50% thermal boost on just the wolf and the muninn since no other race has those particular combination of resistance bonuses already? The reason could be that these ships were orginally made to quell minmatar factions collaborating with the ammar so were built to be innately resistant to both lasers and projectiles or some other such twaddle.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Flurren Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Flurren I meant that fixing the wolf would fix the muninn too which would be a nice bonus as the same fix could be applyed. I still dont know how though. oh. well yeah. having my muninn with thos 2 resistance holes plugged would mean more time in the battle field popping frigs and inties at 80km range Im only asking for one to be filled by the ships base resists lol. Basically EM needs to be lowered and either kinetic or explosive needs to be raised (it would be lovely if it was kinetic :P). That would put minnie armor resists somewhat on par with other races and mean you could fit one hardener and have much rounder resists rather than being virtually immune to EM damage but ripped apart by most projectile rounds and kinetic missiles. How about 75% explosive and 50% thermal boost on just the wolf and the muninn since no other race has those particular combination of resistance bonuses already? The reason could be that these ships were orginally made to quell minmatar factions collaborating with the ammar so were built to be innately resistant to both lasers and projectiles or some other such twaddle. and then a cryout would start that you couldn't pop minmatar ships with fusion. while your idea has merit (I do like it), I'm not seeing it happen. not at least with massive threadnaugts and massive whinings and massive "OMFG CCP SUCKS I QUIT!", because many people have adapted to that already. of course I could be totally wrong. --- planetary interaction idea!
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:23:00 - [76] Lol you mean like you cant pop ammar ships with fusion? Like you cant pop caldari or gallente ships with hybrids? Who uses fusion in pvp anyway? Youd have a more valid point if youd said barrage (but still wrong imo). Anyway nah, tbh im sticking with the theory that minnie t2 ships should have 1 big resistance hole like everyone else instead of the 2 they have now. We shouldnt be gimped just because CCP couldnt decide if we were shield or armor tankers.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:26:00 - [77] Originally by: Flurren Lol you mean like you cant pop ammar ships with fusion? Like you cant pop caldari or gallente ships with hybrids? Who uses fusion in pvp anyway? Youd have a more valid point if youd said barrage (but still wrong imo). Anyway nah, tbh im sticking with the theory that minnie t2 ships should have 1 big resistance hole like everyone else instead of the 2 they have now. We shouldnt be gimped just because CCP couldnt decide if we were shield or armor tankers. not me, but the FOTM whiners. --- planetary interaction idea!
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:30:00 - [78] Honestly i dont think you even know what you're talking about anymore. Changing a 75% resist bonus from EM to explosive on two ships is only going to result in alot of happy amarr players who already complain about our imba 92.5% base resist anyway. Nobody is going to whine about it apart from possibly sansha ratters and tbh, BS rats couldnt hit the long side of a barn anyway so it hardly matters there either.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.17 10:33:00 - [79] Originally by: Flurren Honestly i dont think you even know what you're talking about anymore. Changing a 75% resist bonus from EM to explosive on two ships is only going to result in alot of happy amarr players who already complain about our imba 92.5% base resist anyway. Nobody is going to whine about it apart from possibly sansha ratters and tbh, BS rats couldnt hit the long side of a barn anyway so it hardly matters there either. I'm saying that, in EVE many people might support change, but many people while whine about change. that's all. also I woke up an hour ago, haven't eaten nothing yet, and I haven't even sniffed any sort of coffe. I'm drowsy atm --- planetary interaction idea!
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.12.17 11:49:00 - [80] Originally by: me bored Edited by: me bored on 17/12/2007 05:57:57 Originally by: Nian Banks Also if you jumped into a gate camp with a nice bubble, how do you get out without a speed mod? By not being an idiot and jumping into it in the first place. This may come as something of a shock to you but speed mods are far from essential and perform poorly in many kinds of set-ups. All FC's are gods, they get rss feeds from CCP telling them where all roaming gangs, camps and bubbles are. At the same time, there is no such thing as an interdictor, and no ships try to approach a sniper with the intent to web, jam and kill said sniper. Snipers when shooting are magically moved so as to keep their guns always at optimal range of their victims. Its a lovely world you live in isn't it, One last thing, not everyone fliesvin large numbers to zerg their enemy.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.17 11:58:00 - [81] Originally by: Nian Banks One last thing, not everyone fliesvin large numbers to zerg their enemy. oh come on. zerging your enemy is fun ...well at least for the first 2 times, then it gets boring. --- planetary interaction idea!
me bored	Posted - 2007.12.17 12:18:00 - [82] Originally by: Nian Banks Originally by: me bored Edited by: me bored on 17/12/2007 05:57:57 Originally by: Nian Banks Also if you jumped into a gate camp with a nice bubble, how do you get out without a speed mod? By not being an idiot and jumping into it in the first place. This may come as something of a shock to you but speed mods are far from essential and perform poorly in many kinds of set-ups. All FC's are gods, they get rss feeds from CCP telling them where all roaming gangs, camps and bubbles are. At the same time, there is no such thing as an interdictor, and no ships try to approach a sniper with the intent to web, jam and kill said sniper. Snipers when shooting are magically moved so as to keep their guns always at optimal range of their victims. Its a lovely world you live in isn't it, One last thing, not everyone fliesvin large numbers to zerg their enemy. You show extreme naivety and a lack of knowledge. I'm beginning to seriously wonder about your level of pvp experience.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.12.17 16:08:00 - [83] Originally by: me bored Originally by: Nian Banks Originally by: me bored Edited by: me bored on 17/12/2007 05:57:57 Originally by: Nian Banks Also if you jumped into a gate camp with a nice bubble, how do you get out without a speed mod? By not being an idiot and jumping into it in the first place. This may come as something of a shock to you but speed mods are far from essential and perform poorly in many kinds of set-ups. All FC's are gods, they get rss feeds from CCP telling them where all roaming gangs, camps and bubbles are. At the same time, there is no such thing as an interdictor, and no ships try to approach a sniper with the intent to web, jam and kill said sniper. Snipers when shooting are magically moved so as to keep their guns always at optimal range of their victims. Its a lovely world you live in isn't it, One last thing, not everyone fliesvin large numbers to zerg their enemy. You show extreme naivety and a lack of knowledge. I'm beginning to seriously wonder about your level of pvp experience. Oh Please! Spare me your pompous bigotry, your clearly short sighted and could never think laterally even if your life depended on it so I will gladly ignore your posts, So don't comment on mine from now on. Thanks.
Ron Lycan	Posted - 2007.12.18 00:19:00 - [84] Thank you for derailing the thread. Everything here ofcourse must be done gradually. We are all well aware of the minmatar resist holes. If anything, it can be addressed *Later* once *All* the Assault frigates can be useful again. So cut it out for the time being. On topic though. I think what we can agree fully and partially on are that these outlooks for assisting Assault frigates are what most want to see at the least. - 4th bonus for T2 resists to be made innate and replaced with a proper ship bonus. - At the very least for a change. Partial Stasis Webber Resist made as role bonus for all Assault frigates. As long as if the current Assault retain their Current speed before all these changes are made so they aren't speed demons with tanks that compete with interceptor grounds. - Partially: Afterburner's use to be boosted and probably so for in Favor of Assault frigates to *in Addition to be added to Role bonus*. I still think the Enyo should be optimal for Blasters, Not both weapon systems. Would also be neat to see some more use of other less used modules like Smart bombs and ECM bursts.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.12.18 05:49:00 - [85] Originally by: Ron Lycan Thank you for derailing the thread. Everything here ofcourse must be done gradually. We are all well aware of the minmatar resist holes. If anything, it can be addressed *Later* once *All* the Assault frigates can be useful again. So cut it out for the time being. On topic though. I think what we can agree fully and partially on are that these outlooks for assisting Assault frigates are what most want to see at the least. - 4th bonus for T2 resists to be made innate and replaced with a proper ship bonus. - At the very least for a change. Partial Stasis Webber Resist made as role bonus for all Assault frigates. As long as if the current Assault retain their Current speed before all these changes are made so they aren't speed demons with tanks that compete with interceptor grounds. - Partially: Afterburner's use to be boosted and probably so for in Favor of Assault frigates to *in Addition to be added to Role bonus*. I still think the Enyo should be optimal for Blasters, Not both weapon systems. Would also be neat to see some more use of other less used modules like Smart bombs and ECM bursts. Your right about the blaster only bonus, I think its about time that the range bonuses were specific for the ships intended role, now ofcourse a wolf could fit artillery but falloff is a uniquely important thing only for autocannons so it doesn't give artillery much of a boost at all, so perhaps its time that hybrids and lasters had a way of differentiating the close and long range weapons for range bonuses. Now although I would like to say as you have to make a blaster only optimal bonus, perhaps what would be best is for blaster boats to have a double bonus, a +10%/lvl to blaster optimal and a +5%/lvl to rail optimal. We shouldn't restrict the ships fittings to such an extent as to say "no rails" but it certainly can have the bonus leaned towards those blasters. The other option is just to give it a falloff bonus and be done with it. Anyway, For the long range assault frigates, I would love for them to have a warp strength bonus, sadly though that may not be in line with their name "assault" ships. To assault something in military contexts is usually a close combat engagement and/or to attack a fortification. I guess the best role bonus for a long range vessel would be more damage or even more range, sadly that goes against destroyers intended role, but what the heck, if an AF has 4-5 high slots and has a double damage bonus with range, then a t2 destroyer would clearly beat it with 7-8 high slots and the same double damage bonuses and a range bonus. I do have another idea for ranged assault ships, perhaps we could have a new module for them that is a minature siege module, increasing their tank to a crazy amount, stopping them from moving and giving them an even greater targeting range, weapon optimal and damage. But thats just fantasy.
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.18 08:00:00 - [86] Originally by: Ron Lycan Thank you for derailing the thread. Everything here ofcourse must be done gradually. We are all well aware of the minmatar resist holes. If anything, it can be addressed *Later* once *All* the Assault frigates can be useful again. So cut it out for the time being. On topic though. I think what we can agree fully and partially on are that these outlooks for assisting Assault frigates are what most want to see at the least. - 4th bonus for T2 resists to be made innate and replaced with a proper ship bonus. - At the very least for a change. Partial Stasis Webber Resist made as role bonus for all Assault frigates. As long as if the current Assault retain their Current speed before all these changes are made so they aren't speed demons with tanks that compete with interceptor grounds. - Partially: Afterburner's use to be boosted and probably so for in Favor of Assault frigates to *in Addition to be added to Role bonus. I still think the Enyo should be optimal for Blasters, Not both weapon systems. Would also be neat to see some more use of other less used modules like Smart bombs and ECM bursts. I already said i didnt want to derail the thread and already mentioned all the things you talked about so yes, i think it can be safely said we agree on those since they've already been mentioned a couple of hundred times.* If someone hadnt kept on (purposefully?) misinterpreting every post i made about it and said silly things like it would be unbalancing in some stupid false way i wouldnt have had to make so many... If you want to talk about the enyo specifically i dont personally have a problem with that but its worth mentioning that in that case you're no better than me talking about the resistance problems minnie t2 ships have. Both ECM bursts and smartbombs are area of effect modules therefore they have huge problems with both empire use and balancing when used in large clumps of foes so i dont think theyre good modules to be focusing the ships around. Im going to say here that i think the afterburner boost is necessary since if these ships stay at the pitiful speed theyre at now, anything and everything will simply out range them or get under their guns in the case of sniper setups. Closing distance to web range is a hairy topic for ships as awfully slow for their size as AFs are at the moment even if they get AB bonuses and web resistances tbh.
Sorela Gallente Fade to Black Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.18 10:16:00 - [87] Do we really need to put them in the anti frig role? I like that role but here's my problem: If AF's get put into the anti frig role then they will probably either not be as good as the other options or they will be too good compared to the other options. Which means that: 1) They'll get nefed again. 2) The other anti frig options will get buffed and then make the AF useless again. 3) They won't get buffed enough to be useful in the first place. Other permutations are possible but honestly I think trying to make them anti frig is just going to end up causing more problems. At the very least the destroyer/dictor players who want to be the anti frig types will scream bloody murder till they get buffed again or till AF's get nerfed. Why don't we at least discuss some crazier options? How about making them capable at fleet ranges somehow? Or hell even anti-captial ship in swarms or something? Prolly horrible ideas but thats just an example of craziness that should be discussed at least.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:28:00 - [88] Originally by: Sorela Do we really need to put them in the anti frig role? I like that role but here's my problem: If AF's get put into the anti frig role then they will probably either not be as good as the other options or they will be too good compared to the other options. Which means that: 1) They'll get nefed again. 2) The other anti frig options will get buffed and then make the AF useless again. 3) They won't get buffed enough to be useful in the first place. Other permutations are possible but honestly I think trying to make them anti frig is just going to end up causing more problems. At the very least the destroyer/dictor players who want to be the anti frig types will scream bloody murder till they get buffed again or till AF's get nerfed. Why don't we at least discuss some crazier options? How about making them capable at fleet ranges somehow? Or hell even anti-captial ship in swarms or something? Prolly horrible ideas but thats just an example of craziness that should be discussed at least. Anti-frig role is not very useful, as a simple Thrasher performs it just as good at a fraction of the cost. AFs have to have value when fighting bigger ships to be worth it. Currently, the only advantage over T1 frigs they have is being able to take out short-range interceptors (most AFs, at least), for what frigs lack the muscle / endurance. Being capable of fleet ranges is kindof meh, because making them fleet only toys isn't so hot (and means that they will be useless at the much more often close ranges, plus any larger ship does the fleet range thing better anyway). Rifters!
Knoppaz Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2007.12.18 11:29:00 - [89] ..just an idea, so please be gentle What about making AFs a fast-moving counter to cruiser-size ships? Give them mid-size guns and let them duke it out with the big guys.. Everyone always says what an AF can do, a cruiser can do better so making cruisers (plus BCs and maybe HACs when in pack) their primary target seems like a logical move. Cruisers counter the tackling frigs and AFs counter them.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:00:00 - [90] Edited by: Grimpak on 18/12/2007 12:00:23 Originally by: Sorela Do we really need to put them in the anti frig role? I like that role but here's my problem: If AF's get put into the anti frig role then they will probably either not be as good as the other options or they will be too good compared to the other options. Which means that: 1) They'll get nefed again. 2) The other anti frig options will get buffed and then make the AF useless again. 3) They won't get buffed enough to be useful in the first place. Other permutations are possible but honestly I think trying to make them anti frig is just going to end up causing more problems. At the very least the destroyer/dictor players who want to be the anti frig types will scream bloody murder till they get buffed again or till AF's get nerfed. Why don't we at least discuss some crazier options? How about making them capable at fleet ranges somehow? Or hell even anti-captial ship in swarms or something? Prolly horrible ideas but thats just an example of craziness that should be discussed at least. I'm still partial to the anti-Ewar role --- planetary interaction idea!

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