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Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 15:46:00 - [1] Edited by: Grimpak on 14/12/2007 15:48:32 apparently Afrigs will get their deserved boost (omfg) next patch. freakin' amazing I say. so yeah, since I'm here I've decided to cook up some ideas on the fly for these ships. first of all, I must say that I am partial on all Afrigs having a "immune to stasis webifier" role bonus, BUT ONLY if they maintain the agility and speed they have today. why? for the sake of balancing. boosting Afrig's agility and speed while giving them such role bonus would be the equivalent of throwing balance out of the window on the top of a 80-story skyscraper. with that said, let's continue. Afrigs are bastardized childs that range from the less bad jaguar, ishkur, harpy and vengance to the "I did it because I want a ship that sucks badly" hawk. so what could be changed on the Afrigs? first, the ishkur. drone bandwith coupled with the no-recharge nerf kinda gimped this ship in the eyes of some (I always used light drones on this ship, so the change was actually a good thing with the bigger bay. What can be changed on this ship to boost it a little? Gallente frigate skill bonus: 5% damage for small hybrids and 7.5% armor repairing bonus per level. Assault frigate bonus: 5% light drone speed and 5% light drone hitpoints and damage. drone bay size changed from 25m3 to 50m3 the enyo screams blasters tbh. even if the bonuses are more geared to rails I always seen the enyo as a omfg blasters platform. but many people use it as a rail platform aswell. so what to do? Gallente frigate skill bonus: 5% damage for small hybrids and 7.5% armor repairing bonus per level. Assault frigate skill bonus 5% damage and 7.5% tracking for small hybrids. next, the caldari harpy. In it's role the ship performs well already, leaving not so much space for whatever improvements without unbalancing the ship a bit. So how about making it a mini-eagle? Caldari frigate skill bonus: 10% optimal range for small hybrids and 5% shield resists per level Assault Frigate bonus: 10% optimal and 5% damage per level 2 more base grid. the hawk is a sorry excuse for a frigate tbh. with less than optimal bonuses and not that much firepower. also it lacks somewhat in tanking, even with the bonus. However, an increase of fittings and swapping a high slot for a med, might round up this ship a bit. Caldari frigate skill bonus: 5% to kinetic missile and shield resists bonus per level Assault frigate bonus: 10% to shield boost and missile speed bonus per level. + 8 base grid and 10 base CPU. +100 base hp for shield. next comes the minmatar ships. The jaguar is a mini-vagabond. pure and simple. so let's make it look like one. Minmatar frigate skill bonus: 5% small projectile damage and velocity bonus per level Assault frigate: 10% fallof bonus and 5% damage bonus per level. Wolf however relies more on firepower, so how about a 50% damage bonus right from the box? Minmatar frigate skill bonus: 10% small projectile damage per level Assault frigate bonus: 10% small projectile optimal and 7.5% tracking bonus per level +2 more grid finally the amarr ones: the vengeance is marginally good already, however some small changes could be made amarr frigate skill: 5% damage and 10% speed bonus for rockets per level assault frigate bonus: 5% bonus to armor resists and capacitor recharge per level the retribution lacks firepower to balance the fact that it only has 1 medslot. so what can be done to this ship? I was always an advocate of the retri being a mobile turret platform, so how about: amarr frigate skill: 10% small lasers cap usage per level and 5% armor resist bonus per level assault frigate bonus: 5% damage and 10% optimal to small lasers per level convert utility hi-slot to turret slot increase grid from 56 to 65 increase cpu to 130 for all Afrigs: role bonus of web immunity (only if current speed and agility are maintained), and increase of sensor strength in the order of the 150% new role of Afrigs: anti-Ewar ships. --- planetary interaction idea!
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:03:00 - [2] this would encourage flying these ships. but i still have this feeling about balance. some of those ships could tank better than cruiser combined with their small sig and web imunnity this would make them nearly indestructible for ships with med guns. they need a role for sure but the devs should think 10 times about it before putting something into eve which could cause fotm inbalance issues and skyrocket the prices over the top. ccp tends to do this way too often. foresight and sensitiveness are always 90% of a successful addition to the game if u ask me. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:07:00 - [3] thus the "web immunity bonus only if mass and speed maintained". tank-wise the boost that I've gave to some is not that amazing, but I see your point, and believe that I've took it into consideration. --- planetary interaction idea!
Altterra	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:36:00 - [4] The reason the Enyo sucks in because it lacks the third midslot to do anything on it's own, remove the 5th useless highslot and put it in mid.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:41:00 - [5] Did they say what the boost would be to AF's? -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Seriya Caldari Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Grimpak apparently Afrigs will get their deserved boost (omfg) next patch. What's your source please?
Si Delane Sector 7 Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:00:00 - [7] You know, I almost, ALMOST flamed you so hard for breaking my favorite ship (Harpy) but now that I read it a bit more carefully, I applaud your changes. But wouldn't the 25% across the board shield resists (AF 5 isn't that long a train and I would definitely train it if these came down) on top of it's already impressive resists a little... ridiculous? Seems to me like a free invul is a bit overpowered. I admit that Afrigs have no role right now (although I fly them for giggles) I have bagged the occassional belt ratting drake (that took a VERY long time...), barge and heavy tackling at gate camps. This might be giving them a unique role but making them almost too good at it. ------------------------- Actually this IS my main.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:15:00 - [8] Edited by: Grimpak on 14/12/2007 17:19:27 Originally by: Seriya Originally by: Grimpak apparently Afrigs will get their deserved boost (omfg) next patch. What's your source please? Apparently next patch will deal with both amarr and Afrigs. also forgot to say, but I meant the hawk to be 4/5/2 in terms of slots instead of today's 5/4/2. Originally by: Altterra The reason the Enyo sucks in because it lacks the third midslot to do anything on it's own, remove the 5th useless highslot and put it in mid. the reason I maintained the enyo as it is is that the Afrigs could go for an anti-support support role, more specifically, anti-Ewar support role, being ships that are impossible to web and damn hard to jam, meaning leave the tackling for the tacklers. frigs already have good anti-frig options (damage inties), good taclking options (tackling inties) and good Ewar support (EAS), why not having a ship that excels in damage dealing and sweeping out other Ewar ships? --- planetary interaction idea!
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:37:00 - [9] Essentially your changes are asking that the Jaguar become a scaled-down Vagabond and the Wolf become a scaled-down Muninn. Hrmm... no thanks.
Annowyn Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:40:00 - [10] Um, that is kinda what those two ships are....
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Vitrael Essentially your changes are asking that the Jaguar become a scaled-down Vagabond and the Wolf become a scaled-down Muninn. Hrmm... no thanks. like they are now? --- planetary interaction idea!
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2007.12.14 17:45:00 - [12] Firstly, 5 turret retribution would be very nice thank you very much : ) Secondly, my personal opinion is that they ought to bring AFs into a mini-CS role, with the second tier ones being the ones that can fit multiple Frig-specific gang links, and the the gunnery focused ones only being able to fit one link. Make these new gang links specifically focused on frigates and destroyers, speed, sig radius, RoF, optimal, that sort of thing. As long as they only apply to frigates it could be a nice boost for small ship gangs. Thoughts? A new tool in the fight for balance?
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:07:00 - [13] Edited by: Grimpak on 14/12/2007 18:07:45 Originally by: Erim Solfara Firstly, 5 turret retribution would be very nice thank you very much : ) I've always thought of the retri as a "****in' beam from hell" frigate. Why should a frigate with no flexibility, but class-A tank have only 4 turrets? as for the rest.. hmm.. I would've increase the tanks and remove any semblance of firepower if such role was made for them. but then the name should change from Assault ships to Frontline command ships --- planetary interaction idea!
MassonA Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:00:00 - [14] Edited by: MassonA on 14/12/2007 19:00:17 Originally by: Vitrael Essentially your changes are asking that the Jaguar become a scaled-down Vagabond and the Wolf become a scaled-down Muninn. Hrmm... no thanks. As has been stated, it's basically what they are now. Enyo and Ishkur; Deimos and Ishtar? Hawk and Harpy; Cerb and Eagle? Nice ideas in general, although i'd still like to see the retribution with atleast 2 mids.
dust monkey Minmatar Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:12:00 - [15] Edited by: dust monkey on 14/12/2007 19:13:12 Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 14/12/2007 15:48:32 next comes the Minmatar ships. The jaguar is a mini-vagabond. pure and simple. so let's make it look like one. Minmatar frigate skill bonus: 5% small projectile damage and velocity bonus per level Assault frigate: 10% falloff bonus and 5% damage bonus per level. Wolf however relies more on firepower, so how about a 50% damage bonus right from the box? Minmatar frigate skill bonus: 10% small projectile damage per level Assault frigate bonus: 10% small projectile optimal and 7.5% tracking bonus per level +2 more grid o how i would love these changes. but tbh threads like this have been made years ago and AF are still not that popular in PVP. i can still dream of a 125% dmg bonus to artillery tho :)
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:20:00 - [16] Originally by: dust monkey Edited by: dust monkey on 14/12/2007 19:13:12 Originally by: Grimpak Edited by: Grimpak on 14/12/2007 15:48:32 next comes the Minmatar ships. The jaguar is a mini-vagabond. pure and simple. so let's make it look like one. Minmatar frigate skill bonus: 5% small projectile damage and velocity bonus per level Assault frigate: 10% falloff bonus and 5% damage bonus per level. Wolf however relies more on firepower, so how about a 50% damage bonus right from the box? Minmatar frigate skill bonus: 10% small projectile damage per level Assault frigate bonus: 10% small projectile optimal and 7.5% tracking bonus per level +2 more grid o how i would love these changes. but tbh threads like this have been made years ago and AF are still not that popular in PVP. i can still dream of a 125% dmg bonus to artillery tho :) well, it's just rumours but let's hope they really meant what they said about "next patch will adress AFrigs and amarr, and other stuff that needs balancing/fixing" --- planetary interaction idea!
UGLYUGLY	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:17:00 - [17] I like your ideas and I totally agree that AF's need love, I just have a wee issue with one or two of them. The vengeance, I fly this alot. The range of the rockets have never really been an issue, damage has always been the big problem. The way I have been using it, is get close and use it's very impressive tank to just grind a target down. If you remove the extra resists for rocket speed it's not going to have a strong enough tank or enough dps. I personally like it where it is, but if something had to change, I guess the resists could be removed for a 5-10% ROF bonus to rockets, hehehe it would empty the rocket bays in no time. I only really have an issue with the jaguar if it gets web immunity, that just seems a little over powered, speed ship that can't be webbed. If no web immunity then A++, rock on and have some cake.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:22:00 - [18] Originally by: UGLYUGLY I like your ideas and I totally agree that AF's need love, I just have a wee issue with one or two of them. The vengeance, I fly this alot. The range of the rockets have never really been an issue, damage has always been the big problem. The way I have been using it, is get close and use it's very impressive tank to just grind a target down. If you remove the extra resists for rocket speed it's not going to have a strong enough tank or enough dps. I personally like it where it is, but if something had to change, I guess the resists could be removed for a 5-10% ROF bonus to rockets, hehehe it would empty the rocket bays in no time. I only really have an issue with the jaguar if it gets web immunity, that just seems a little over powered, speed ship that can't be webbed. If no web immunity then A++, rock on and have some cake. forgot to say that, like in the HAC's, the resists will be built in. the inexistance of a real 4th bonus is the main gripe I have with Afrigs tbh. --- planetary interaction idea!
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:24:00 - [19] yes retribution already ganks pretty hard and is pretty easy to fit even if it had 5 turret slots, no need for pg and cpu upgrades imo. the vengeance on the other hand does laughable damage and should really get a rof bonus on top of the damage bonus imo. range, as already has been said, isn't an issue and your boost would project javelins far out of it's sensor range.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Shiken Kan yes retribution already ganks pretty hard and is pretty easy to fit even if it had 5 turret slots, no need for pg and cpu upgrades imo. the vengeance on the other hand does laughable damage and should really get a rof bonus on top of the damage bonus imo. range, as already has been said, isn't an issue and your boost would project javelins far out of it's sensor range. I was having in mind beam lasers when I slapped thos fittings. even being only 4 turrets, it's pretty damn hard to fit 4 beams in the retri, while all the other ships can slap the biggest guns with little to no sacrifice. --- planetary interaction idea!
UGLYUGLY	Posted - 2007.12.14 22:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Grimpak forgot to say that, like in the HAC's, the resists will be built in. the inexistance of a real 4th bonus is the main gripe I have with Afrigs tbh. ah good good, but If thats the case ROF would still be a nice bonus to have. It's dps is so laughable. I have a comic book waiting to read for when i get into fights
Arkios Odymei Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2007.12.15 02:58:00 - [22] I like a lot of these changes, but as it has been said... Im not so sure about the web immunity with the superspeed-Jaguar change (which I also feel would be encroaching on Interceptor speed territory). Web immunity would be awesome and would give the ships an interesting infighting role, but the ships shouldnt be able to dogfight with intys with ease. If no web imunity, than a slight increase in base speed and decrease in mass/sig radius would be nice. Just something to make them feel more like frigs as opposed to... slow, fat frigs. All in all, I like the concept of web imunity, but I feel it should be only allowed if the af's are slower ships. The ships may not have a high max speed (maybe 2.5-3km/s at max for the fastest one with a speed fit), but they wont have to worry about their speed being altered. Oh and lastly, fourth bonuses 4tw! ------------------------------------------------------------------
Kuzya Morozov Gallente Organized Combat Consortium	Posted - 2007.12.15 04:45:00 - [23] Heh, I recently got into a Wolf, nothing that a Thorax can't do more cheaply and effectively too. Generally a dissappointment, they need some specialized role, not just as pleasure vehicles. Originally by: zeeZ Exus The time WOW and EVE combine will be the day we get planetary interaction. World of Warcraft shards become planets and we shall get modules for planetary bombardment.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.15 08:14:00 - [24] Originally by: Arkios Odymei I like a lot of these changes, but as it has been said... Im not so sure about the web immunity with the superspeed-Jaguar change (which I also feel would be encroaching on Interceptor speed territory). Web immunity would be awesome and would give the ships an interesting infighting role, but the ships shouldnt be able to dogfight with intys with ease. If no web imunity, than a slight increase in base speed and decrease in mass/sig radius would be nice. Just something to make them feel more like frigs as opposed to... slow, fat frigs. All in all, I like the concept of web imunity, but I feel it should be only allowed if the af's are slower ships. The ships may not have a high max speed (maybe 2.5-3km/s at max for the fastest one with a speed fit), but they wont have to worry about their speed being altered. Oh and lastly, fourth bonuses 4tw! if 25% speed bonus is too much, how about a 37.5% tracking bonus instead? --- planetary interaction idea!
Knoppaz Rens Nursing Home	Posted - 2007.12.15 09:02:00 - [25] Edited by: Knoppaz on 15/12/2007 09:02:32 Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Arkios Odymei I like a lot of these changes, but as it has been said... Im not so sure about the web immunity with the superspeed-Jaguar change (which I also feel would be encroaching on Interceptor speed territory). Web immunity would be awesome and would give the ships an interesting infighting role, but the ships shouldnt be able to dogfight with intys with ease. If no web imunity, than a slight increase in base speed and decrease in mass/sig radius would be nice. Just something to make them feel more like frigs as opposed to... slow, fat frigs. All in all, I like the concept of web imunity, but I feel it should be only allowed if the af's are slower ships. The ships may not have a high max speed (maybe 2.5-3km/s at max for the fastest one with a speed fit), but they wont have to worry about their speed being altered. Oh and lastly, fourth bonuses 4tw! if 25% speed bonus is too much, how about a 37.5% tracking bonus instead? The Jag would be an AC-platform and should be fine without tracking bonus. I think the speed bonus is ok since it's still pretty heavy and therefore wouldn't reach Ceptor speed. Full web immunity sounds tempting, but if you think about it, it really seems overpowered for a frig-sized ship. Either make it a fixed built-in reduction or a bonus like 10% immunity to web per level for assault-ships.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.12.15 09:09:00 - [26] Webber Immunity? Where do people come up with this moronic idea? Noone seriously suggested Webber Immunity. What was suggested was a Webber Resistance, a % resistance to webbers to lessen the effect. Basically anything from 20-50% resistance. It means that if your webbed by two webbers you will stop but if your hit by one you can keep doing your thing. Now for Interceptors, its not an issue, they fly way out of web range now thanks to their buff. But for AF's they are close range fighters, they need a resistance to survive. The next important thing is to allow AF's to tank, the best way to do this is to give them a bonus to Afterburners, If you use an AB instead of a MWD then you keep your small signature, you use less cap and have long activation times, plus you have no cap penalty. Hence a AB velocity boost is key. The last thing you do is add the resist bonus to the ship as a native t2 resist and put in the webber resist to it, then the AB bonus as a role bonus. Done and sweet.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.15 10:15:00 - [27] I can only talk about amarr assault ships as those are the only ones ive flown. Vengence needs its bonus changing to all rockets not just em. Retribution needs its utility high moved to a mid.
UGLYUGLY	Posted - 2007.12.15 11:41:00 - [28] Originally by: Firkragg I can only talk about amarr assault ships as those are the only ones ive flown. Vengence needs its bonus changing to all rockets not just em. Retribution needs its utility high moved to a mid. It's bonus is for all rockets
Kaian Voskhod	Posted - 2007.12.15 11:42:00 - [29] Quote: apparently Afrigs will get their deserved boost (omfg) next patch. Where did you saw that ?
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.15 18:31:00 - [30] I really dislike some of the changes you've proposed and i think others will too. First of all i want to talk about turrets. I think all AFs should have either 4 or 5 turret hard points (or missiles if thats the weapon system the ship uses). This would actually make them a force to be reckoned with and justify the name of the ship. Another reason is that the current difference between the 3 turret and 4 turret AFs damage is 33% which i think is too much. A frigate is built around dps that is hard to hit so low slots and med slots lose a bit of significance. As for the ships talking about the gallente ones first, active tank bonuses dont work imo because none of these ships can fit a cap booster so their MWD drains all the cap they have. If they dont fit an MWD they will be kited and killed due to their low speed. I think a good fix to this would be the much proposed 50% - 100% afterburner bonus so these ships have less cap problems. 50% AB bonus and 40% reduced effect of webs (new web effect = web effect0.6) would be a nice change. With the current mass this would still bring them to around impulse speed in web range. The ishkur doesnt really warrant a gun bonus imo. Guns seem an added extra to a drone ship so i propose a base drone bay of 25m3. 10% drone damage and 10% drone hit points and 7.5 armor repper effect per frig level. 5m3 extra drone bay and 5% extra light drone speed per AF level (though im really not sure drone speed is that beneficial to lights). I dont know if the enyo needs a tracking bonus or not but i've always shyed away from this when using small guns. Maybe it would be useful with rails however. Also i think a low slot would be better as another med slot making the ship 3/3. I dont know alot about caldari and amarr AFs really. The harpy looks like an even better sniper now and the harpy... well it seems like you just turned it into a sort of slow crow with an imba tank lol. I dont think just because it sucked before it needs a 50% shield booster bonus when all other ships have 37.5% though. The jaguar changes seem fine although the reason i dont fly the ship currently is that 3 turrets is a really crappy amount of dps. The thing needs 4 to even compete imo as it doesnt have the ishkurs drones but ive already mentioned that change. The wolf tbh is a mess. It has two huge resistance holes in its armor, not enough mids to even tackle, let alone try to fit a shield extender on and the bonuses you proposed are trying to turn it into a sniper when it has neither the pg or cpu to even fit artillery. On the whole its really sad that minmatar who already have the worst pvp armor resistances on their t1 ships, add insult to injury by having the worst t2 resistance boosts. The only i could imagine that would be worse is having 75% EM and 50% explosive. I dont really know how to change these glaring problems without introducing bonuses and stats with no consistency or explanation. I understand the reasons for the armor resistances in place but thats not an excuse for minnie t2 armor tankers getting such a disgracefully raw deal. Anyway moving a low to a med making the wolf 3/3 like the enyo so it can at least fit a web would be a start to fixing its problems. Maybe it is meant to be an artillery boat in which case it needs a hell of alot more fitting. Two 25% damage bonuses makes one 56.25% damage bonus btw so no t2 ship should ever have just one big t1 ship skill bonus since this is just a plain nerf. Tbh i dont like your bias towards gallente in making the enyo an all round hybrid boat and then ***ting all over minnie players by forcing artillery on wolf users which is clearly the projectile using brother to the enyo. Im a bit tired now and i dont really know what to say about the amarr ships. They obviously need more mids, not really sure what this would be at the expense of. Dont really know enough about them to comment more.

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