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Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 16:23:00 - [1] Short answer, YES! And let me tell you why. Too all the "Amarr are fine" clueless pilots I have put a little something together. Now I am not a big fan of Eve-fitting my way onto the forums but I found this to be a bit interesting. I wanted to put different types of guns the Amarr ships that have laser cap usage bonus on them and compare the final results. I am going to do two ships, one with and one without a second laser bonus. For this I chose the Prophecy (generally deemed a garbage Amarr ship) and the Harbinger (generally deemed a pretty good Amarr ship). So let's see. All skills set to lvl 5. No drones were used. Autocannon Prophecy: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 800mm Rolled Tung plate 2 x Gyrostabs II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector Stasis Web II high: 6 x 425mm Autocannon II rigs: Ancil current Projectile Burst Aerator (rof) Final: CPU - 392.5/437.5 Grid - 1738.18/1787.5 Tank - 194 DPS with 8729 armor HP Cap - use = 51.3, regen = 48.1 DPS - 278 Blaster Prophecy: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 400mm Rolled Tung plate (had to reduce from Autocannons for fit) 2 x Mag Field Stabs II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector Stasis Web II high: 6 x Heavy Neutron Blaster II rigs: 2 x Ancil current Final: CPU - 432.5/437.5 Grid - 1839.8/1966.25 Tank - 194 DPS with 7416 armor HP Cap - use = 60.2, regen = 48.1 DPS - 372 Pulse Prophecy: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 400mm Rolled Tung plate (had to reduce from Autocannons for fit) 2 x Heat Sink II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector Stasis Web II high: 6 x Heavy Pulse Laser II rigs: 2 x Ancil current Final: CPU - 432.5/437.5 Grid - 1942.4/1966.25 Tank - 194 DPS with 7416 armor HP Cap - use = 61.1, regen = 48.1 DPS - 319 So as you can see for each of these setups I used only two rigs, albeit different for autocannons but I was trying to keep consistent on the number. I also used the largest guns for each type. While the autocannons did significantly less damage, they allowed for a slightly better tank (more armor HP) and the setup used significantly less cap. The blaster setup had the same tank as the pulse setup but used slightly less cap (for all intents and purposes the same) but did significantly more more damage. Conclusion: Even with the cap usage bonus lasers use more cap that blasters and the blasters are better for tracking and DPS. Even with the MWD this ship would not be able to maintain the distance necessary for lasers to be effective. Now on to the Harby. Autocannon Harb: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 800mm Rolled Tung plate 2 x Gyrostabs II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector X5 Webber high: 6 x 425mm Autocannon II rigs: Ancil current Projectile Burst Aerator (rof) Final: CPU - 412.25/468.75 Grid - 1884.71/2062.5 Tank - 146 DPS with 9461 armor HP Cap - use = 51.5, regen = 49.4 DPS - 325 Blaster Harb: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 800mm Rolled Tung plate 2 x Mag Field Stabs II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector X5 Webber high: 6 x Heavy Neutron Blaster II rigs: 2 x Ancil current Final: CPU - 464.75/468.75 Grid - 2201.6/2268.75 Tank - 146 DPS with 9461 armor HP Cap - use = 61.9, regen = 49.4 DPS - 434 Pulse Harb: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 800mm Rolled Tung plate 2 x Heat Sink II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector X5 Webber high: 6 x Heavy Pulse Laser II rigs: 3 x Ancil current Final: CPU - 464.75/468.75 Grid - 2321.3/2495.63 Tank - 146 DPS with 9461 armor HP Cap - use = 62.9, regen = 49.4 DPS - 465 So the autocannons did significantly less damage but the setup also used significantly less cap. Pulse lasers, while requiring a third rig for grid because lasers are so grid hungry do just slightly better damage thatn blasters but require slightly more cap (basically the same). So please guys, how are Amarr okay? If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:05:00 - [2] truth: amarr aren't THAT ok. --- planetary interaction idea!
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:08:00 - [3] To be fair, you also have to look at the roles of those ships. The harbinger does much more damage with lasers, because it is bonused as such. The prophecy is a tank boat, and harbinger gank. You cannot just fit a general fitting on everything and expect all numbers to come out the same. Now, I do agree that amarr need some love, I just think the way that you are proving this is a bit lacking. --
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:15:00 - [4] All the Tier 1 BC's need some lubbinz'. Goumindong has a really good essay in Game Dev called "A General Balance Treatise". I don't agree with everything in it, but it has some really good ideas, directions, and pointers. But yeah... the Prophecy seems (to me) to be lacking even compared to the other Tier 1's... and the only Amarr cruiser that I think's worth a damn is the Arbitrator. These are the only good T1 Amarrian ships that strike me off the top of my head: Punisher, Arbitrator, (Maller), Harbinger, Geddon, Abaddon. BUT, the "boost patch" said they'd "deal" with Amarr somehow .... let's hope they don't decide that Amarr needs a neutralizer nerf [Pilgrim, Curse]. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Terrifiedkiller Gallente The Reappropriation Committee SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Almarez Short answer, YES! And let me tell you why. Too all the "Amarr are fine" clueless pilots I have put a little something together. Now I am not a big fan of Eve-fitting my way onto the forums but I found this to be a bit interesting. I wanted to put different types of guns the Amarr ships that have laser cap usage bonus on them and compare the final results. I am going to do two ships, one with and one without a second laser bonus. For this I chose the Prophecy (generally deemed a garbage Amarr ship) and the Harbinger (generally deemed a pretty good Amarr ship). So let's see. All skills set to lvl 5. No drones were used. Autocannon Prophecy: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 800mm Rolled Tung plate 2 x Gyrostabs II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector Stasis Web II high: 6 x 425mm Autocannon II rigs: Ancil current Projectile Burst Aerator (rof) Final: CPU - 392.5/437.5 Grid - 1738.18/1787.5 Tank - 194 DPS with 8729 armor HP Cap - use = 51.3, regen = 48.1 DPS - 278 Blaster Prophecy: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 400mm Rolled Tung plate (had to reduce from Autocannons for fit) 2 x Mag Field Stabs II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector Stasis Web II high: 6 x Heavy Neutron Blaster II rigs: 2 x Ancil current Final: CPU - 432.5/437.5 Grid - 1839.8/1966.25 Tank - 194 DPS with 7416 armor HP Cap - use = 60.2, regen = 48.1 DPS - 372 Pulse Prophecy: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 400mm Rolled Tung plate (had to reduce from Autocannons for fit) 2 x Heat Sink II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector Stasis Web II high: 6 x Heavy Pulse Laser II rigs: 2 x Ancil current Final: CPU - 432.5/437.5 Grid - 1942.4/1966.25 Tank - 194 DPS with 7416 armor HP Cap - use = 61.1, regen = 48.1 DPS - 319 So as you can see for each of these setups I used only two rigs, albeit different for autocannons but I was trying to keep consistent on the number. I also used the largest guns for each type. While the autocannons did significantly less damage, they allowed for a slightly better tank (more armor HP) and the setup used significantly less cap. The blaster setup had the same tank as the pulse setup but used slightly less cap (for all intents and purposes the same) but did significantly more more damage. Conclusion: Even with the cap usage bonus lasers use more cap that blasters and the blasters are better for tracking and DPS. Even with the MWD this ship would not be able to maintain the distance necessary for lasers to be effective. Now on to the Harby. Autocannon Harb: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 800mm Rolled Tung plate 2 x Gyrostabs II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector X5 Webber high: 6 x 425mm Autocannon II rigs: Ancil current Projectile Burst Aerator (rof) Final: CPU - 412.25/468.75 Grid - 1884.71/2062.5 Tank - 146 DPS with 9461 armor HP Cap - use = 51.5, regen = 49.4 DPS - 325 Blaster Harb: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 800mm Rolled Tung plate 2 x Mag Field Stabs II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector X5 Webber high: 6 x Heavy Neutron Blaster II rigs: 2 x Ancil current Final: CPU - 464.75/468.75 Grid - 2201.6/2268.75 Tank - 146 DPS with 9461 armor HP Cap - use = 61.9, regen = 49.4 DPS - 434 Pulse Harb: lows: 2 x MAR II EANM II 800mm Rolled Tung plate 2 x Heat Sink II med: 10MN MWD II Medium Electrochem injector X5 Webber high: 6 x Heavy Pulse Laser II rigs: 3 x Ancil current Final: CPU - 464.75/468.75 Grid - 2321.3/2495.63 Tank - 146 DPS with 9461 armor HP Cap - use = 62.9, regen = 49.4 DPS - 465 So the autocannons did significantly less damage but the setup also used significantly less cap. Pulse lasers, while requiring a third rig for grid because lasers are so grid hungry do just slightly better damage thatn blasters but require slightly more cap (basically the same). So please guys, how are Amarr okay? if amarr was so fine why the **** are you using projectles they are minmatar guns not amarr :P amarr should be using lasers and they are gimped by usingthe
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:36:00 - [6] Originally by: Marcus Druallis To be fair, you also have to look at the roles of those ships. The harbinger does much more damage with lasers, because it is bonused as such. The prophecy is a tank boat, and harbinger gank. You cannot just fit a general fitting on everything and expect all numbers to come out the same. Now, I do agree that amarr need some love, I just think the way that you are proving this is a bit lacking. I think you missed the point. I am not comparing the Proph to the Harb, I am comparing each of these ships individually with different turret types. What I showed was that using both projectiles or blasters (especially blasters) over lasers on Amarr ships can be better. Projectiles don't use cap and can possibly allow for better tank (less pg and cpu) and blasters do more dps and also use less pg. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:39:00 - [7] I understand that, but the point I was trying to make is that the prophecy isnt doing damage because it is not bonused much, as it is a tanking ship. But yes, they need fixing. --
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:40:00 - [8] Edited by: Almarez on 14/12/2007 18:40:09 Originally by: Terrifiedkiller if amarr was so fine why the ** are you using projectles they are minmatar guns not amarr :P amarr should be using lasers and they are gimped by usingthe Did you even read what I wrote. My point is that they are not fine. That these other turrets (in particular blasters) are better on Amarr ships than lasers. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.**
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:42:00 - [9] xelas failure cascade continues in ships and mods ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:42:00 - [10] Edited by: Almarez on 14/12/2007 18:44:46 Originally by: Marcus Druallis I understand that, but the point I was trying to make is that the prophecy isnt doing damage because it is not bonused much, as it is a tanking ship. But yes, they need fixing. You are right bud but think of it this way, while the other Tier 1 BC fall under the same philosophy they all have a useful gun bonus. So the point is that the suckiness of lasers forces the use of this stupid cap usage bonus making other weapons more desirable. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:43:00 - [11] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/12/2007 18:43:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren All the Tier 1 BC's need some lubbinz'. Goumindong has a really good essay in Game Dev called "A General Balance Treatise". I don't agree with everything in it, but it has some really good ideas, directions, and pointers. But yeah... the Prophecy seems (to me) to be lacking even compared to the other Tier 1's... and the only Amarr cruiser that I think's worth a damn is the Arbitrator. These are the only good T1 Amarrian ships that strike me off the top of my head: Punisher, Arbitrator, (Maller), Harbinger, Geddon, Abaddon. BUT, the "boost patch" said they'd "deal" with Amarr somehow .... let's hope they don't decide that Amarr needs a neutralizer nerf [Pilgrim, Curse]. -Liang Uhm excuse me where you come off comparing a brutix to a prophecy? They are in so different leagues its not even funny. Whats wrong with the brutix? It ganks the crap out of anything its own size. Also arbi sucks compared to a vexor. Omen sucks compared to a thorax. Amarr cruiser, bc line is utter crap. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Erotic Irony xelas failure cascade continues in ships and mods I'm sorry I don't know who you are and your post is really pointless. Can you argue what I'm saying or does your brain not function that way? If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/12/2007 18:43:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren All the Tier 1 BC's need some lubbinz'. Goumindong has a really good essay in Game Dev called "A General Balance Treatise". I don't agree with everything in it, but it has some really good ideas, directions, and pointers. But yeah... the Prophecy seems (to me) to be lacking even compared to the other Tier 1's... and the only Amarr cruiser that I think's worth a damn is the Arbitrator. These are the only good T1 Amarrian ships that strike me off the top of my head: Punisher, Arbitrator, (Maller), Harbinger, Geddon, Abaddon. BUT, the "boost patch" said they'd "deal" with Amarr somehow .... let's hope they don't decide that Amarr needs a neutralizer nerf [Pilgrim, Curse]. -Liang Uhm excuse me where you come off comparing a brutix to a prophecy? They are in so different leagues its not even funny. Whats wrong with the brutix? It ganks the crap out of anything its own size. Also arbi sucks compared to a vexor. Omen sucks compared to a thorax. Amarr cruiser, bc line is utter crap. It's tank is quite nice also. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Liang Nuren All the Tier 1 BC's need some lubbinz'. Goumindong has a really good essay in Game Dev called "A General Balance Treatise". I don't agree with everything in it, but it has some really good ideas, directions, and pointers. But yeah... the Prophecy seems (to me) to be lacking even compared to the other Tier 1's... and the only Amarr cruiser that I think's worth a damn is the Arbitrator. These are the only good T1 Amarrian ships that strike me off the top of my head: Punisher, Arbitrator, (Maller), Harbinger, Geddon, Abaddon. BUT, the "boost patch" said they'd "deal" with Amarr somehow .... let's hope they don't decide that Amarr needs a neutralizer nerf [Pilgrim, Curse]. -Liang What "boost patch"? If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:51:00 - [15] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm excuse me where you come off comparing a brutix to a prophecy? They are in so different leagues its not even funny. Whats wrong with the brutix? It ganks the crap out of anything its own size. WTF are you talking about? I didn't even mention the word "Brutix" in my post, yet you insist on trolling me as if I said the Prophecy was a better ship than the Brutix. what the duck chuck?! Quote: Also arbi sucks compared to a vexor I disagree after the Trinity patch. Quote: Omen sucks compared to a thorax I didn't say the Omen was any good. I SEEM to remember sayin that the Amarr cruiser line was a steaming pile. Quote: Amarr cruiser, bc line is utter crap. The Harbinger is a damn fine ship and you're a liar if you say otherwise. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:53:00 - [16] Originally by: Almarez What "boost patch"? The live dev blog made a mention of a "boost patch" ... but made no details but did say that "all of your balancing issues will be fixed" when talking about Amarr, AF's, module sizes, etc. But if their idea of balancing Amarr is to nerf the Pilgrim and it's TD's.... I hesitate to see what their oomph is this time. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Battleclash	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:54:00 - [17] Originally by: Almarez YES! Nuff said. Originally by: Vladimir Ilych Stupidity is universal.
Bruce Deorum Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Terrifiedkiller if amarr was so fine why the **** are you using projectles they are minmatar guns not amarr :P amarr should be using lasers and they All races are using ships with up to 2-3 different weapon platforms. Amarr are the latest to hop-in this trend. But the respected for PvP "uber" Gallente ships, used both drones n hybrid turrets, along with some of them that specialize in missiles! Caldari also have "crap" (read meh) hybrid turret platforms, meh drone capabilities, and still get a very good PvP BS, the Rokh - probably the best long range Sniper (is there another kind?). Minmatar are...neglected also...split weapon systems require huge SP investment in them for an average-to-good performance above the HAS/BS lvl. They are at least favored from the nano-craze... At least Amarr got Khanid II in a few ships, and personally I'd love to see in some T1 ships. The Prophecy as a baby Damnation would be sweet. It's not that its that worse than the Ferox, is it? I was proud of my Prophecy back in these carebear months before the Harbi came ... All races can benefit from bonused capless weapon platforms. And Drones along with missiles offer a less demanding skill investment - at least up to cruiser class launchers. T2 SML or HAMs out of scratch are joke compared to a Raven pilot going for a Rokh! And it's not crap to cross train into projectiles if you have no missile hard points in you favorite ship...otherwise why would a Myrmidon with Proj be better than with blasters? Why not the Sentinel, or the Proph, even the maller? Why not a Pilgrim? Versatility is a good thing. Would you prefer your Maller to refuse to undock, cause it would be embarassed to be seen with those "infidel slave's" weapon? RP is nice man, but, com on...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.14 18:59:00 - [19] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 14/12/2007 19:00:35 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Uhm excuse me where you come off comparing a brutix to a prophecy? They are in so different leagues its not even funny. Whats wrong with the brutix? It ganks the crap out of anything its own size. WTF are you talking about? I didn't even mention the word "Brutix" in my post, yet you insist on trolling me as if I said the Prophecy was a better ship than the Brutix. what the duck chuck?! Quote: Also arbi sucks compared to a vexor I disagree after the Trinity patch. Quote: Omen sucks compared to a thorax I didn't say the Omen was any good. I SEEM to remember sayin that the Amarr cruiser line was a steaming pile. Quote: Amarr cruiser, bc line is utter crap. The Harbinger is a damn fine ship and you're a liar if you say otherwise. -Liang Who in their right mind would sit in a harbinger if they could sit in a hurricane? No one, thats who. Fitting, cap, dps, damage types, slots, tank. Every goddamn thing is better on the hurricane. So yes allow me to dis harbinger, because either harb is balanced and hurricane op or hurricane is balanced and harb sucks. Youre treating amarr like people that are used to 3 star meals and say "well now you got a 4star meal so be happy" and conveiniently forget about everyone else that gets a 5star meal. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:03:00 - [20] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/12/2007 19:04:08 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Who in their right mind would sit in a harbinger if they could sit in a hurricane? No one, thats who. Fitting, cap, dps, damage types, slots, tank. Every goddamn thing is better on the hurricane. So yes allow me to dis harbinger, because either harb is balanced and hurricane op or hurricane is balanced and harb sucks. Youre treating amarr like people that are used to 3 star meals and say "well now you got a 4star meal so be happy" and conveiniently forget about everyone else that gets a 5star meal. When was the last time you tried to break a shield tank in a Hurricane? It doesn't even require a mediocre shield tank to make it damn hard to break... but that wonderful EM damage spewing Harbinger eats shield tanks alive! -Liang Ed: Besides, if even a single thing gets boosted towards lasers, the Harbinger will exceed the Hurricane in usefulness. The gap between the Tier 2 BC's is very very small. AND WHAT THE DUCK WAS UP WITH THAT STUPID BRUTIX COMMENT?!!? -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Bruce Deorum Originally by: Terrifiedkiller if amarr was so fine why the ** are you using projectles they are minmatar guns not amarr :P amarr should be using lasers and they All races are using ships with up to 2-3 different weapon platforms. Amarr are the latest to hop-in this trend. But the respected for PvP "uber" Gallente ships, used both drones n hybrid turrets, along with some of them that specialize in missiles! Caldari also have "crap" (read meh) hybrid turret platforms, meh drone capabilities, and still get a very good PvP BS, the Rokh - probably the best long range Sniper (is there another kind?). Minmatar are...neglected also...split weapon systems require huge SP investment in them for an average-to-good performance above the HAS/BS lvl. They are at least favored from the nano-craze... At least Amarr got Khanid II in a few ships, and personally I'd love to see in some T1 ships. The Prophecy as a baby Damnation would be sweet. It's not that its that worse than the Ferox, is it? I was proud of my Prophecy back in these carebear months before the Harbi came ... All races can benefit from bonused capless weapon platforms. And Drones along with missiles offer a less demanding skill investment - at least up to cruiser class launchers. T2 SML or HAMs out of scratch are joke compared to a Raven pilot going for a Rokh! And it's not crap to cross train into projectiles if you have no missile hard points in you favorite ship...otherwise why would a Myrmidon with Proj be better than with blasters? Why not the Sentinel, or the Proph, even the maller? Why not a Pilgrim? Versatility is a good thing. Would you prefer your Maller to refuse to undock, cause it would be embarassed to be seen with those "infidel slave's" weapon? RP is nice man, but, com on... Dude you are talking about two different things. The other races can use multiple systems by design not because their weapons suck. The argument to say "oh you can use other turret types" is not an argument that Amarr ships are okay. It just shows how bad lasers suck. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.**
Tal Nok Amarr DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:07:00 - [22] The only problem I have with Amarr is the lack of an extra mid slot and damage types from crystals. To these whine threads? I say get better skills and a better fit as I dont have an issue. Not quite sure what else to tell you. Originally by: hellsknights It's always nice to kill something you can't afford
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:08:00 - [23] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 14/12/2007 19:04:08 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Who in their right mind would sit in a harbinger if they could sit in a hurricane? No one, thats who. Fitting, cap, dps, damage types, slots, tank. Every goddamn thing is better on the hurricane. So yes allow me to dis harbinger, because either harb is balanced and hurricane op or hurricane is balanced and harb sucks. Youre treating amarr like people that are used to 3 star meals and say "well now you got a 4star meal so be happy" and conveiniently forget about everyone else that gets a 5star meal. When was the last time you tried to break a shield tank in a Hurricane? It doesn't even require a mediocre shield tank to make it damn hard to break... but that wonderful EM damage spewing Harbinger eats shield tanks alive! -Liang Ed: Besides, if even a single thing gets boosted towards lasers, the Harbinger will exceed the Hurricane in usefulness. The gap between the Tier 2 BC's is very very small. AND WHAT THE DUCK WAS UP WITH THAT STUPID BRUTIX COMMENT?!!? Brutix comment just as a vent and troll. I had a beer, its friday. Lets move on. Yes a dps boost to harbinger would bring these two inline. Shield tank is no issue. Every hurricane carries republic fleet emp (or even normal does the trick) and a mwd. No big deal. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Almarez What "boost patch"? The live dev blog made a mention of a "boost patch" ... but made no details but did say that "all of your balancing issues will be fixed" when talking about Amarr, AF's, module sizes, etc. But if their idea of balancing Amarr is to nerf the Pilgrim and it's TD's.... I hesitate to see what their oomph is this time. -Liang Do you have a link to the blog script? If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:10:00 - [25] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Brutix comment just as a vent and troll. I had a beer, its friday. Lets move on. If all you can do is troll, move along please. Quote: Yes a dps boost to harbinger would bring these two inline. Shield tank is no issue. Every hurricane carries republic fleet emp (or even normal does the trick) and a mwd. No big deal. Yeah but how much of a DPS boost are you asking for? 50? 100? 200? 300? 400? 500? 600? 700? How much would make it "balanced" in your (ever so trollish) opinion? Even if they boosted the Harbinger to "base" at 1500 DPS you'd still whine that it can't fit a full out tank and do it too. You're just as bad as those people that whine the passive drake sucks because it doesn't do 600 DPS and tank 1500 DPS at the same time! -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Almarez Do you have a link to the blog script? I wish I did... just been collecting the information from the forums (slowly). I saw that in General Discussion somewhere... -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Erotic Irony xelas failure cascade continues in ships and mods I'm sorry I don't know who you are and your post is really pointless. Can you argue what I'm saying or does your brain not function that way? Can I argue what you're saying? Grammatical missteps aside, you're first line in the thread reveals you to be saying the same ranty thing as the EFT noobs and so on--none of what you're saying is new or particularly insightful. Give it a rest. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:14:00 - [28] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Brutix comment just as a vent and troll. I had a beer, its friday. Lets move on. If all you can do is troll, move along please. Quote: Yes a dps boost to harbinger would bring these two inline. Shield tank is no issue. Every hurricane carries republic fleet emp (or even normal does the trick) and a mwd. No big deal. Yeah but how much of a DPS boost are you asking for? 50? 100? 200? 300? 400? 500? 600? 700? How much would make it "balanced" in your (ever so trollish) opinion? Even if they boosted the Harbinger to "base" at 1500 DPS you'd still whine that it can't fit a full out tank and do it too. You're just as bad as those people that whine the passive drake sucks because it doesn't do 600 DPS and tank 1500 DPS at the same time! -Liang Good so you see the need for EVEN the harbinger needing a boost. What do you think would cover the advantage of the hurricanes tanking, cap, dps, dmg type? You do know what the problem is though. If you boost harb dps just by 50-100 it has absolution dps. hmmm you see how so many things are broken? (not nessesarily saying absolution is broken, but alot of related things.) --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Tal Nok To these whine threads? I say get better skills and a better fit as I dont have an issue. Not quite sure what else to tell you. Winner. hiccup
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:15:00 - [30] Edited by: Almarez on 14/12/2007 19:15:50 Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Erotic Irony xelas failure cascade continues in ships and mods I'm sorry I don't know who you are and your post is really pointless. Can you argue what I'm saying or does your brain not function that way? Can I argue what you're saying? Grammatical missteps aside, you're first line in the thread reveals you to be saying the same ranty thing as the EFT noobs and so on--none of what you're saying is new or particularly insightful. Give it a rest. So basically you are running around in circles not really arguing against my post. So the answer is no then? BTW, the use of Evefit is so I have moderately accurate numbers. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:16:00 - [31] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Good so you see the need for EVEN the harbinger needing a boost. The Harbinger needs about 40-50 CPU. That is the only boost that I'm willing to admit that the Harbinger needs. Quote: What do you think would cover the advantage of the hurricanes tanking, cap, dps, dmg type? 40-50 CPU and a boost to encourage more shield tanking in PVP. The only thing that makes the Harbinger anything less than the Hurricane is the current PVP environment (which is admittedly flawed). Quote: You do know what the problem is though. If you boost harb dps just by 50-100 it has absolution dps. hmmm you see how so many things are broken? (not nessesarily saying absolution is broken, but alot of related things.) Except that the Abso can tank and do that damage at the same time... last I checked. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:19:00 - [32] Edited by: Almarez on 14/12/2007 19:19:22 Originally by: Tal Nok The only problem I have with Amarr is the lack of an extra mid slot and damage types from crystals. To these whine threads? I say get better skills and a better fit as I dont have an issue. Not quite sure what else to tell you. I bet you fly the few ships that are deemed okay. How often do you PVP in the Proph/Maller/Apoc? If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:20:00 - [33] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Almarez Do you have a link to the blog script? I wish I did... just been collecting the information from the forums (slowly). I saw that in General Discussion somewhere... -Liang Thanks anyway. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Tal Nok Amarr DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Tal Nok The only problem I have with Amarr is the lack of an extra mid slot and damage types from crystals. To these whine threads? I say get better skills and a better fit as I dont have an issue. Not quite sure what else to tell you. I bet you fly the few ships that are deemed okay. How often do you PVP in the Proph/Maller/Apoc? Prophecy and Apoc are my favorite ships, and my two most used (most used means daily basis), google my killboard for proof. As I said, I have no problem with these ships with the exception of a extra midslot, and limiting damage types on crystals. Originally by: hellsknights It's always nice to kill something you can't afford
Man'corr Minmatar	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:23:00 - [35] No Amarr ships dont suck at all. Theyre great. They got the best looks and just play real smooth. Now before i get too much flak....... The Lasers are worse than throwing paper at the enemy ship. I mean Projectiles can switch damage types. Phased Plasma is nice at breaking shields. And armor tanks are never a problem. Caldari and Gallente only have rails/blasters, so they only deal Kinetic and Thermal damage, but what, they always do some damage and they get drones or missiles for actual breaker damage types (especially Caldari who can switch damage on the fly), oh and Minmatar can doo that too (Typhoon being the case in point of going too far with wanting everything). Amarr? Well we get Turrets. And thats it. Sure Khanid ships are great, but theyre Tech II so introduced later on as a fix to the whole race. Then theres a drone ship like the Arbitrator, but it doesnt even have a Laser bonus. Overall for many ships, its just the lasers. If they would be able to deal different kinds of damage, or something else i dont know. I dont have a solution yet (except that actual LASERs (capitalization for the actual acronym intended) can deal kinetic damage, since they concentrate alot of force in a very small point. And then you get explosive damage because of superheated materials turning into something...well hot. Dont hate the ships, hate the guns. All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk Back after a 4 Year Hiatus. Damn whats Capital ships?
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Man'corr No Amarr ships dont suck at all. Theyre great. They got the best looks and just play real smooth. Now before i get too much flak....... The Lasers are worse than throwing paper at the enemy ship. I mean Projectiles can switch damage types. Phased Plasma is nice at breaking shields. And armor tanks are never a problem. Caldari and Gallente only have rails/blasters, so they only deal Kinetic and Thermal damage, but what, they always do some damage and they get drones or missiles for actual breaker damage types (especially Caldari who can switch damage on the fly), oh and Minmatar can doo that too (Typhoon being the case in point of going too far with wanting everything). Amarr? Well we get Turrets. And thats it. Sure Khanid ships are great, but theyre Tech II so introduced later on as a fix to the whole race. Then theres a drone ship like the Arbitrator, but it doesnt even have a Laser bonus. Overall for many ships, its just the lasers. If they would be able to deal different kinds of damage, or something else i dont know. I dont have a solution yet (except that actual LASERs (capitalization for the actual acronym intended) can deal kinetic damage, since they concentrate alot of force in a very small point. And then you get explosive damage because of superheated materials turning into something...well hot. Dont hate the ships, hate the guns. Agreed the guns are the issue, that is what I was saying. Please don't say that the ships are great because they look nice. I would rather fly a cube that could actually function well. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:32:00 - [37] Edited by: Almarez on 14/12/2007 19:33:09 Originally by: Tal Nok Originally by: Almarez Originally by: Tal Nok The only problem I have with Amarr is the lack of an extra mid slot and damage types from crystals. To these whine threads? I say get better skills and a better fit as I dont have an issue. Not quite sure what else to tell you. I bet you fly the few ships that are deemed okay. How often do you PVP in the Proph/Maller/Apoc? Prophecy and Apoc are my favorite ships, and my two most used (most used means daily basis), google my killboard for proof. As I said, I have no problem with these ships with the exception of a extra midslot, and limiting damage types on crystals. I'll have to contact you in game for that. I'd be willing to bet you are mainly in medium to large fleets, well basically never just you (ya I know you mentioned the med slot). How about this, I fly a Domi, only have Gallente BS lvl 1 and can't use T2 heavies or blasters, and you fly an Apoc, fit however you want, and let's see who wins. Same challenge for Proph vs. Brutix. Edit: BTW, no warping away so no warp disrupter necessary, how does that sound? If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:35:00 - [38] Originally by: Almarez I'll have to contact you in game for that. I'd be willing to bet you are mainly in medium to large fleets, well basically never just you (ya I know you mentioned the med slot). How about this, I fly a Domi, only have Gallente BS lvl 1 and can't use T2 heavies or blasters, and you fly an Apoc, fit however you want, and let's see who wins. Same challenge for Proph vs. Brutix. Challenges like that are foolish. I solo'd a Drake in my Stabber because he didn't have decent mods or skills. They're good for show and such, but he will destroy you and you'll lose your point (even though you do have one). -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Sofring Eternus Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:38:00 - [39] Honestly guys, all they really need to do to fix Amarr woes: Reduce fitting requirements on Pulses & Beams to be inline with Blasters & Rails. (Make sure to compare all level 5 skills and ships) That allows Amarr players to fit their favorite turrets, and fit an armor tank with reppers and plates. Also, with the proper fittings Amarr ships will fit CPR instead of RCU to run sniper setups, and should achieve parity with the other races snipers. Then, reduce the cap use on Energy Neutralizers to be 3:1 or 2:1 base, and then modded by respective ships. Having a 1:1 base is stupid, who fits that? That would fix most of the Pilgrim and Curse problems. --- ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ Amarr dont need Grr... and RAWR is definately too much, but some Oomph would be nice.
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:41:00 - [40] Edited by: Almarez on 14/12/2007 19:44:07 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Almarez I'll have to contact you in game for that. I'd be willing to bet you are mainly in medium to large fleets, well basically never just you (ya I know you mentioned the med slot). How about this, I fly a Domi, only have Gallente BS lvl 1 and can't use T2 heavies or blasters, and you fly an Apoc, fit however you want, and let's see who wins. Same challenge for Proph vs. Brutix. Challenges like that are foolish. I solo'd a Drake in my Stabber because he didn't have decent mods or skills. They're good for show and such, but he will destroy you and you'll lose your point (even though you do have one). -Liang Normally I would agree except that all of my supporting gunnery skills are maxed and even though I can't use T2 heavies I have really good drone skills otherwise. And I have faith enough in the suckiness of lasers. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.
Thrak NaShere	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:44:00 - [41] Originally by: Almarez I'll have to contact you in game for that. I'd be willing to bet you are mainly in medium to large fleets, well basically never just you (ya I know you mentioned the med slot). How about this, I fly a Domi, only have Gallente BS lvl 1 and can't use T2 heavies or blasters, and you fly an Apoc, fit however you want, and let's see who wins. Same challenge for Proph vs. Brutix. Edit: BTW, no warping away so no warp disrupter necessary, how does that sound? Sure
Tal Nok Amarr DEATH'S LEGION	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:45:00 - [42] err sure too...wrong toon Originally by: hellsknights It's always nice to kill something you can't afford
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:45:00 - [43] Originally by: Thrak NaShere Originally by: Almarez I'll have to contact you in game for that. I'd be willing to bet you are mainly in medium to large fleets, well basically never just you (ya I know you mentioned the med slot). How about this, I fly a Domi, only have Gallente BS lvl 1 and can't use T2 heavies or blasters, and you fly an Apoc, fit however you want, and let's see who wins. Same challenge for Proph vs. Brutix. Edit: BTW, no warping away so no warp disrupter necessary, how does that sound? Sure Fraps? -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.12.14 19:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Tal Nok err sure too...wrong toon I'll contact you in game, we can find some deep dark private hole somewhere or we can go on SISI, either is fine. If the Amarr are a colony of ants then CCP is that mean kid with the magnifying glass trying to set the ants on fire.

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