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Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2012.02.05 02:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
First a bit of math. In the existing skill system, training time in minutes equals: (points needed for next level - points you have) / (primary attribute + (secondary attribute/2))) * training time multiplier
For example: I currently have Leadership trained to level 4 - 45,255 skill points. Level 5 requires 256,000 skill points so: 256,000 - 45,255 = 210,745 points remaining
The primary attribute of Leadership is Charisma, which I have at 31 points. The secondary attribute is Willpower, which I have at level 25. 31 + (25 / 2) = 43.5
210,745 points / 43.5 = 4844 minutes = 3 days, 8 hours, 44 minutes
Notice that: 210,745 points / 4844 minutes = 43.5 points per minute. 43.5 points per minute * 60 = 2610 points per hour.
From these numbers we can see that: My Charisma will contribute 150,185 points, or about 71.3% of the total at a rate of 1,861 points per hour. My Willpower will contribute 60,560 points, or about 28.7% of the total at a rate of 749 points per hour.
Now imagine this. Instead of actually training Leadership level 5, my character is able to generate the same numbers of unallocated skill points as shown above from Charisma and Willpower and store them in separate skill point pools. I'm not talking about adding points to the attributes, I mean each attribute would have it's own skill point pool which would continuously accumulate unallocated skill points based on the number of points in the corresponding attribute. Instead of spending 3 days, 8 hours, and 44 minutes training Leadership level 5, I would accumulate the same number of unallocated skill points. When I am able to log on, I can instantly allocate those skill points into whichever skill I want. In the current system, only two attributes are involved in the training of any given skill, therefore, under this new system, only two attributes would be 'active' at any given time.
What this would do is eliminate the need to train skills. It would eliminate the skill queue because we would no longer have to schedule skills in order to make sure that our characters don't fall behind when, for whatever reason, we are unable to log on and add another skill to the queue before the current skill finishes. Everything else would be the same. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2012.02.05 09:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mag's wrote: You've removed the decision of whether you should train that level 5 skill.
The decision is still there, you just make it after you have the skill points rather than before. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2012.02.05 10:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Another player had the same great idea and got trolled?
Imagine that.  |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2012.02.05 15:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mag's wrote: As it is now, you make a choice and have to stick with it. Even if after a couple of weeks, you realize you actually should have trained another skill to 5. With your idea, that consequence is removed and you collect SP to distribute as and when required.
Sorry, but no thanks.
When you decide which attributes you want your generic skill to train, that is a permanent and irreversible commitment. When you chose what skills to allocate your skill points to, that is also a permanent and irreversible commitment. You could very well regret any of these decisions after you make them so no consequence are removed. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2012.02.06 03:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
mxzf wrote: people will simply dump all their unused skills into Will/Perc to be able to dump them into the next FotM when it rolls around.
This idea would not allow you to add skill points to your attributes. It just creates a separate pool for the skill points generated by each attribute.
mxzf wrote: Any system that allows characters to suddenly dump SP into skills faster than [training them as usual] is fundamentally abuseable and would destroy skills in Eve as we know them by removing the main consequence to training in Eve.
The least you can do is explain your assertions. Instead of ranting, give me some concrete examples. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2012.02.06 11:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
This proposal does not 'mess' with the skill queue. It does not change or replace what is there now, it just adds something that makes it better. If you really believe it won't help your game, fine, you would have the option of not using it. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2012.02.06 16:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mag's wrote: I'm not sure if you're deliberately missing the point, or just not seeing it.
As it stands now, you make a choice and have wait for that choice to give fruit. It could be weeks for a level 5, so your choice and decision to train that skill is one to be considered.
With your idea, you gather SP and are able to choose when and to what skill you apply it and instantly gain level 5. You don't even need to use them, you simply keep gathering the SP and wait for new stuff to arrive. Or wait the new FOTM to show it's head and apply as needed. Instant skills at level 5, no worries.
It even removes the need for the skill queue, as it trains this super skill if you forget to set one. Hell, why even log on at all? Just let it run and return a year later and apply that 20 odd million SP to where ever you fancy.
I understand your point, Mag, and I think it's unfair.
When you train a regular skill, you lock yourself into training only that skill. When you train this generic skill, you only lock yourself into the category of skills that depend on the same attributes as the ones you set. So training the generic skill is more flexible than training a regular skill. This would be equally good for everyone, including you. Still you complain and exaggerate because you don't want to admit that you prefer that other characters be allowed to fall behind as it puts you ahead. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2012.02.06 21:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Griptus wrote: I think it's unfair.
You're under the mistaken impression that Eve is fair. It isn't. No. Again, I think it's unfair, hence the proposal.
mxzf wrote: Eve is only as fair as you make it, therefore, your proposal is fundamentally broken.
The skill system is fundamentally broken. My proposal will make it fair.
You and Mag have the impression that Eve is meant to be unfair. It isn't. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.07 12:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Smiling Menace wrote: You seem to be under the impression that the skills are some sort of race to 'keep up' with other players? It isn't.
Yes it is. The main issue for me is that every player is spending their own hard earned money for the time to train skills and, when the skill system allows our characters to stop training and fall behind, it is essentially wasting our time and money.
Smiling Menace wrote: What's to stop me rolling a new character, not learning anything for the next 3-4 years and, when my corp/alliance needs to take space or whatever, I just insta-learn a titan pilot! Now imagine that times a few thousand for other ships or specific roles. This will not help EVE in the slightest, will only help those with cash to burn (and there are a lot of people like this in EVE).
You earn the same amount of skill points whether you are training a regular skill or the generic skill so, in the end, you aren't insta-learning anything, and your character would no longer be new. Either way you end up with a titan pilot. As long as you have been paying the bill, you should have whatever you want. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.07 13:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Misanthra wrote: Enter your idea. I do a space command only spec train and ride out 6 months of trains. Don't need to train anything real...I can bank up the sps' and not care too much. Gives me the option too see what the summer patch brings to caps if they get looked at in some way. Will niddy be fixed? Will summer patch due to wtf play testing inhouse make chimera's so op its scary? That happens....jsut cash my chips in and bam, instant uber chimera. Same with major numbers in every alliance who either on mains just fill in time since "done" up to supers or the training char on one of their cyno alt accounts.
NO consequence to this setup. I wait for summer patch to settle, see what the trends ar, have my months of sp's....and bam I pick the new winner. Old system is fine as is. I pick my ships, hope next patch is either nice or does nothing to me (since nothng is better than getting nerfed lol). Element of risk eve players have taken for years. We all lived through it, so can newer players.
If it takes six months to save the skill points, than it's not instant. You have to train a total of 6,354,024 skill points split between 13 skills in four different categories in order to fly the Chimera. One skill depends on Intelligence/Memory, two skills depend on Memory/Perception, two skills depend on Intelligence/Perception, and eight skills depend on Perception/Willpower.
You won't have to log on every day or every week, but you will have to log on to this character at least three times in order to switch out the attributes of the generic skill. So it's not entirely hands free.
Yes, it's more flexible, as it should be, but once you allocate your skill points, it's just as permanent as if you had spent the whole time training the regular skills. And if they end up nerfing the Chimera in the following winter patch, or buffing something else to counter the Chimera, then the consequences are still there as well. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.07 19:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote: Rather than stockpiling forever with minimal consequence, any and ALL unspent points are lost upon being podded.
Imagine that then. You've spent a long time saving up points on a special character. You almost have enough to get that last level 5 you need to fly that awesome ship or fit that t2 gang link, and then somebody comes along and blows it all away. Would you really call it fair? I wouldn't. (...rage quit!) No, I'd rather just lose the usual amount if we die without a clone or it's insufficient. Otherwise they should be fully covered.
Callic Veratar wrote: Rather than training from two attributes at the same time, I would suggest only being able to train one attribute at a time, requiring you to swap the skills regularly to get what you'd like.
You have to swap them either way but, why limit it to only one attribute when regular skill training always generates points from two attributes? primary + (secondary/2)
Also keep in mind that you can only remap your attribute points once a year and, if you put all of your points into one attribute and the rest into another, you will only generate the most skill points from those two attributes. If those are not the two attributes you set in the generic skill while it's training, it will only generate skill points at or near the minimum.
Callic Veratar wrote: Penalties could be introduced that slow training speed the more generic points you have saved up.
No because it is completely unnecessary and doesn't fix or improve anything.
Not every improvement to the game needs to be accompanied by a penalty of equal or greater magnitude. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.07 20:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Griptus wrote: And if they end up nerfing the Chimera in the following winter patch, or buffing something else to counter the Chimera, then the consequences are the same.
But if they nerf the Chimera before you finish training the skills with your system, then there are no consequences whatsoever. See the difference? No. There will always be consequences no matter what you do. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.09 13:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Griptus wrote: There will always be consequences no matter what you do.
Yes, but your idea removes great swathes of them, leaving no real consequences to speak of. What and how? Be more specific. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.09 15:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Please don't reply to topics you haven't clearly read through. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.09 16:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
You can waste your breath all you want, it doesn't bother me. My idea is fair and sound and I'll keep bumping it up until I know it's at least been heard by the people it was intended for. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.09 16:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote: Biomass your character(s).
I have. Many times. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
4
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Posted - 2012.02.09 21:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Griptus wrote:Callic Veratar wrote: Rather than stockpiling forever with minimal consequence, any and ALL unspent points are lost upon being podded.
I'd rather just lose the usual amount if we die without a clone or it's insufficient. Otherwise they should be fully covered. Then don't stockpile. Spend the points now or you might not get to decide at all. Then what's the point of having a clone? It would be most regressive to young characters who most often lose at pvp, suicide gank, and unexpected high sec gate camps under war decs. The generic skill is meant to reduce grief, not make it worse.
Callic Veratar wrote: The point of training one attribute at a time is to reduce complexity in the idea. With 5 generic skills, you can pop one in your queue with the current setup and the points go directly to a bank. With a mixable system you either need 20 skills or a new gui system to allow you to set primary and secondary attributes which may or may not work with the queue. My modification to your idea is as an addition to the current system, not a replacement.
There would only be one generic skill per character. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
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Posted - 2012.02.10 14:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
A long time ago, someone at CCP decided that skill points should be subject to loss when a character dies. I think it was a bad idea because it discourages combat. But they at least had the good sense to give us clones so we have a way of saving our skill points and to limit the loss otherwise.
To be consistent with the original intent of the clone system, unallocated skill points shouldn't be subject to loss if they can't be saved by clones. And if clones are ever removed from the game, which is way beyond the scope of my proposal, then none of our skills points should be subject to loss. I'd prefer it that way because it encourages combat.
It's bad enough that 80% of players never leave high sec. Your idea would not only discourage combat further, it would force everyone to stay docked. You and your friends could simply camp the stations and suicide gank anyone who comes out, preventing them from progressing. That would effectively end the game for everyone, including CCP. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
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Posted - 2012.02.11 03:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
The fundamental problem is that all skill training eventually ends thereby creating the potential for loss of skill points. The problem can never be properly addressed by tweaking the skill queue. It can only be addressed by some kind of infinite skill training which must necessarily be distinct from regular skill training. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
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Posted - 2012.02.11 15:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mag's wrote: Your idea makes the queue obsolete...
Which means it's a better idea. Thank you.
Mag's wrote: and removes any balance in that regard.
Who does it favor, or disfavor?
Mag's wrote: Your idea removes consequences and the difficult decisions we have to make now. The fact that you cannot address that point to any degree, speaks volumes.
It doesn't matter when you make your skill training decisions, they always have consequences.
You've made these logically erroneous arguments many times only to reject my superior wisdom and guidance. Give yourself all the time you need, it should sink in eventually. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
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Posted - 2012.02.11 16:22:00 -
[21] - Quote
mxzf wrote: This isn't a 'problem' though, it's a feature. There's always a potential for missed skill points (not lost, because you never had them to begin with). Whenever you're not training skills, you're getting less SP than you could have, but you're also getting less SP than you could have if you are using anything other than a fully speced skill map with +5s in the relevant attributes.
Losing SP is not a feature, it's a flaw. Missing something is the same as losing it. You miss/lose what you would otherwise have. When you're not training a skill, you're getting zero SP, which is infinitely less than even 1 SP.
mxzf wrote: Part of the core of Eve is the decisions behind the skills you train and how you train them. Do I train X skill now with a good mapping or do I train Y because I need it more, despite having a bad attribute map? (something I made a decision about just this week personally). Do I use a set of +5s for maximum training or do I use +3/4s because they're cheaper and I can afford to replace them? Do I log in now to add another skill to the queue or do I blow it off because I don't feel like it?
Actions have consequences in Eve, this is by design.
Of course it changes the factors that you based you decisions on, that's unavoidable. But it doesn't eliminate the need to make decisions, if that's your impression. |

Griptus
United Coalitions ZADA ALLIANCE
7
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Posted - 2012.02.11 16:45:00 -
[22] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Griptus wrote: Which means it's a better idea. Thank you.
Not necessarily. Never has an inferior idea ever made a superior idea obsolete. It's just a law of nature.
Velicitia wrote: The queue is working as intended in this regard, and shouldn't be removed (pre-queue days of planning around "work", "sleep", "school" and "downtime" were a pain).
I agree. Which is why this idea doesn't change or remove the queue.
Velicitia wrote:Griptus wrote: Then who does it favor, or disfavor?
"Balance" in the regard of "not forcing people to log in every day for 6 hours" (e.g. a traditional MMO) and "we still want you to log in semi-regularly". If you could set and forget 3 or 4 months of skills and not log in, what's there to keep you around? Balance is about how players interact with each other through the game, not about how players interact with the game. If the game is worth playing at all, then you don't need to force players to log in. |
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