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Lord DerekSegan
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:08:00 -
[1]
I am confused as I train toward a Vaga (my main skills are slow Caldari) .. do I want Autocannon or Artilary skils?
Vaga enemy is web so range is good?
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:18:00 -
[2]
AC
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planetary interaction idea! |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:21:00 -
[3]
Autocannons, because of the horrible tracking of artillery.
If you want Artillery, you want the Muninn.
-Liang
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I give up (Make me say whatever you want!):
Price Check: Liang Nuren
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:39:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 16/12/2007 23:43:15
Artillery is generally the better choice for any Minmatar ship, as AC have very low damage due to the low optimals. It is better if you have painter support though, which is hard to get since painters are mostly perceived as weak (for no reason, making this more a pedagogical or political problem than a tactical). Artillery is somewhat more difficult otherwise, since you have to observe your transversal speed.
If you don't have painter support, choose AC. It is viable especially because the ship has a falloff range bonus (albeit the bonus works for artillery too).
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∞ TQFE
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Forty Three
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:44:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Pac SubCom
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 16/12/2007 23:43:15
Artillery is generally the better choice for any Minmatar ship, as AC have very low damage due to the low optimals. It is better if you have painter support though, which is hard to get since painters are mostly perceived as weak (for no reason, making this more a pedagogical or political problem than a tactical). Artillery is somewhat more difficult otherwise, since you have to observe your transversal speed.
If you don't have painter support, choose AC. It is viable especially because the ship has a falloff range bonus (albeit the bonus works for artillery too).
ever heard of falloff?
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UNITY!!!
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Incantare
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:45:00 -
[6]
You want ACs. The vaga's grid isn't ideal for arties, you'll want the tracking of ACs and it has a falloff bonus.
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goodby4u
Logistic Technologies Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Pac SubCom
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 16/12/2007 23:43:15
Artillery is generally the better choice for any Minmatar ship, as AC have very low damage due to the low optimals. It is better if you have painter support though, which is hard to get since painters are mostly perceived as weak (for no reason, making this more a pedagogical or political problem than a tactical). Artillery is somewhat more difficult otherwise, since you have to observe your transversal speed.
If you don't have painter support, choose AC. It is viable especially because the ship has a falloff range bonus (albeit the bonus works for artillery too).
With good skills and adding falloff acs reach to nearly 20km,the arts would not only never hit(tracking)but would have about 80 dps
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3nkil
The Chocolate Factory
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:45:00 -
[8]
no no you want to put arties on it and run an active shield tank...people say ur nub but its good!
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Aravel Thon
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Posted - 2007.12.16 23:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Pac SubCom
Artillery is generally the better choice for any Minmatar ship
ORLY?
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Brox
S.A.S
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Posted - 2007.12.17 00:13:00 -
[10]
when traveling up to 13km/s (snakes) tracking is kinda an important issue!
AC is the best damage dealing weapon of mini's 1vs1 imo. arts are good insta damage but gimp ur set ups, taking too much power grid.
if u use arts on a vaga u are a silly person and should be ashamed 
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Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.12.17 02:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Brox
when traveling up to 13km/s (snakes) tracking is kinda an important issue!
AC is the best damage dealing weapon of mini's 1vs1 imo. arts are good insta damage but gimp ur set ups, taking too much power grid.
if u use arts on a vaga u are a silly person and should be ashamed
IMO, you shouldn't be shooting if you're going 13km/sec.
-Liang
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I give up (Make me say whatever you want!):
Price Check: Liang Nuren
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Naviset
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Posted - 2007.12.17 03:31:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Brox
when traveling up to 13km/s (snakes) tracking is kinda an important issue!
AC is the best damage dealing weapon of mini's 1vs1 imo. arts are good insta damage but gimp ur set ups, taking too much power grid.
if u use arts on a vaga u are a silly person and should be ashamed
IMO, you shouldn't be shooting if you're going 13km/sec.
-Liang
Indeed, 800 a pop for barrage on 5 guns at 2.2s rof is a bit of a waste... :-P
You don't fire (and hit) at 13.5kms (But you dont have to slow down all that much to hit, A lot of times you can still stay fast enough to speed tank and still hit well, although most other minmatar pilots would like you believe they have to deadstop to hit :-P)
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.12.17 03:50:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pac SubCom
Edited by: Pac SubCom on 16/12/2007 23:43:15
Artillery is generally the better choice for any Minmatar ship, as AC have very low damage due to the low optimals.
Ehhhh...
Let's see. ACs deal much much better damage then artillery (which has horrible DPS), are able to actually track things and on top of all that, they've got preety decent range to boot, together with being *****ble together with a tank. Medium ACs hit at 50% efficency at a decent 17ish KM with decent skills (like, trajectory analysis IV) using Barrage M, so they effectively outrange blasters, and you don't need much more: after all, disturptor range is 24km.
Artilleries are standardly used on very few Minmatar ships. Basically, PvP much? ;P
Originally by: Pac SubCom
It is better if you have painter support though, which is hard to get since painters are mostly perceived as weak (for no reason, making this more a pedagogical or political problem than a tactical). Artillery is somewhat more difficult otherwise, since you have to observe your transversal speed.
If by observe transversal you mean have zero transversal, yes. Plus, painters won't really help you enough, and take away your precious midslots. I mean, seriously, artillery tracking is horrible and then some.
Plus, did I say artillery has crap damage and means you won't be fitting a serious tank? Well, I did now.
Rifters!
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Susa Ou
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Posted - 2007.12.17 04:57:00 -
[14]
if you need to ask the question, you should be flying a stabber more to figure it out.
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Flurren
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Posted - 2007.12.17 05:54:00 -
[15]
Just to sort this out:- A vaga pilot with max skills orbiting at 5km/s with one falloff rig and no tracking mods using barrage ammo in dual 180mm guns (these are pretty much the best conditions one could hope for without tracking enhancers/computers) will hit a target with 125m sig radius with around 7 - 8% of his shots at 22.5km range and this only gets worse at closer ranges (the optimum range for this setup being 32.5km away). In the same scenario using EMP the vaga pilot will hit around 10% of his shots at 22.5km range and this is in fact is his optimal with that ammo type and those variables.
I hope you'll excuse me bolding the important numbers there.
Summary of that is you cant hit a cruiser without their MWD on for any real amount of damage at the same time as speed tanking yourself (at least not if you plan on speed tanking missiles, against turrets things get complicated). More examples could be done (i just used the official tracking guide calculator which i assume is still accurate) but i hope this serves to show the problem speed tankers face.
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Deathnail
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Posted - 2007.12.17 06:10:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Deathnail on 17/12/2007 06:14:52
Above poster I think you mean that 22.5k is within falloff. Optimals on d180's are like 2.5k even with barrage or am I crazy?
I fly one regularly and this is my recollection. Anyway not flaming previous poster - i think you just have a typo in there Or maybe I am reading your post wrong.
My real advise is don't fly a vaga without decent support skills. You will want some high gunnery skills or your ability to do damage at range will be not worth it. You need to have excellent range, tracking, optimal etc do be doing any damage at speed and within the falloff (supra).
Even at lower speeds you will be fighting in falloff so again you need these gun (and other) support skills very high to make the vaga work for you.
If you have "decent" but not great supporting skills, then the Muninn may be a better place for you to start in general. You can target and hit your enemies at 50k and as such, transversal effects are minimized. It in know way approximates the speed of a vaga, but it is not particularly slow either.
Also you can fit 650 t2's if you don't yet have enough AWU or WU and other upgrades to fit 720's and still be relatively effective.
The trick to the Muninn is to keep an eye on ranges. You are dangerous and useful at long ranges but don't let other fast small ships get in on you. You're arties will not hit something orbitting YOU fast.
The role of the ship is different - hit from range but still have some speed. You can't fit a great tank, but with good speed and great range (50-70k really), you make an interesting enemy that is easy to fit. When you get into high support skills (all 4 or 5), then check out the Vaga.
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Flurren
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Posted - 2007.12.17 06:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Deathnail
Edited by: Deathnail on 17/12/2007 06:14:52
Above poster I think you mean that 22.5k is within falloff. Optimals on d180's are like 2.5k even with barrage or am I crazy?
I fly one regularly and this is my recollection. Anyway not flaming previous poster - i think you just have a typo in there Or maybe I am reading your post wrong.
My real advise is don't fly a vaga without decent support skills. You will want some high gunnery skills or your ability to do damage at range will be not worth it. You need to have excellent range, tracking, optimal etc do be doing any damage at speed and within the falloff (supra).
Even at lower speeds you will be fighting in falloff so again you need these gun (and other) support skills very high to make the vaga work for you.
If you have "decent" but not great supporting skills, then the Muninn may be a better place for you to start in general. You can target and hit your enemies at 50k and as such, transversal effects are minimized. It in know way approximates the speed of a vaga, but it is not particularly slow either.
Also you can fit 650 t2's if you don't yet have enough AWU or WU and other upgrades to fit 720's and still be relatively effective.
The trick to the Muninn is to keep an eye on ranges. You are dangerous and useful at long ranges but don't let other fast small ships get in on you. You're arties will not hit something orbitting YOU fast.
The role of the ship is different - hit from range but still have some speed. You can't fit a great tank, but with good speed and great range (50-70k really), you make an interesting enemy that is easy to fit. When you get into high support skills (all 4 or 5), then check out the Vaga.
I knew some annoying person would misinterpret what i meant by optimal. When i said optimal i meant the range at which you do the most damage.
Anyway the numbers i quoted were with all skills at five and good rigs. Say you're fighting a cerebus in a vagabond. There no way you can speed tank his missiles and still hit him for a real amount of damage. That was my basic point.
I really didnt comment on the OP at all lol because his post is so stupid. Talking about fitting a vaga with artillery just seems to me like hes completely misunderstood the entire purpose of the ship or has never flown a ship with turrets in his life. The range youd have to get to, to hit with artillery youd be getting pummeled by any other long range gun in the game with your huge MWD sig.
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AntonioBanderas
Empirius Enigmus Navy
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.12.17 08:05:00 -
[18]
thank you guys.
Anyway, i'm never going back to this podforum 'cause i simply get sick from the amount of bull**** one can read here.
No matter ppl who actually know anything eventually reply (lije 2 previous posters), but the sheer amount of ass residue (I can say ASS \o/) is ASTONISHING.
So this is goodbye from me to Ships and Setups
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Destructor1792
Minmatar
Federal Enforcement of the Abyssal Realm
Black Scope Project
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Posted - 2007.12.17 08:09:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lord DerekSegan
I am confused as I train toward a Vaga (my main skills are slow Caldari) .. do I want Autocannon or Artilary skils?
Vaga enemy is web so range is good?
Go with AC's. This is a fast ship so when you're orbiting your target at whatever range, Arties won't be able to track and will continually miss. Maybe go silly with tracking mods and you might hit something, however the vaga is primarily a hit and run ship (unless you're in a pack).
Would also recommend you brush up on piloting skills.. this ship is best flown manual so lots of "double clicking" on screen is required to get the most out of it along with the ability to pulse certain mods whilst also keeping an eye on the targets range/speed/tranvs. whilst not forgetting what range/angle/speed you're coming in from 
Get it all right and it's a blast.. get it wrong & you'll be sat in a pod or in the nearest clone station
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Bringing The Fun Back
I Have No Fear, Fear is for the weak. |
Gneeznow
Minmatar
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.12.17 08:17:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Susa Ou
if you need to ask the question, you should be flying a stabber more to figure it out.
this^
there's a lot of ppl around that seem to want to jump straight into a vaga and have no idea how to fly it or fit it
/me spent 8 months in a stabber before i flew a vaga so i feel like i can preach on the subject a little :P
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