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![Bumblefck Bumblefck](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1391276264/portrait?size=64)
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
2792
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Posted - 2012.02.07 13:57:00 -
[61] - Quote
Wasn't Isaac Asimov convicted of child abuse in Sri Lanka? Just saying, is all.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
![Xen Solarus Xen Solarus](https://images.evetech.net/characters/284568394/portrait?size=64)
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
11
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Posted - 2012.02.07 19:23:00 -
[62] - Quote
Doubt ccp will ever do anything about bots, and if they do, the botters will just think of a way around it. Becides, aren't ccp making cash from them? ![Shocked](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_shocked.png)
Best option is to go for the player based solution, which tends to prove much faster and more effective than anything ccp could do. By this, i mean more players actively seeking out bots and blowing them up! ![Lol](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_lol.png) |
![Alavaria Fera Alavaria Fera](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91492021/portrait?size=64)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
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Posted - 2012.02.07 19:42:00 -
[63] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Best option is to go for the player based solution, which tends to prove much faster and more effective than anything ccp could do. By this, i mean more players actively seeking out bots and blowing them up! ![Lol](https://forums-archive.eveonline.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_lol.png) Yes, solve it with explosions! Being proactive is the way forward.
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![RubyPorto RubyPorto](https://images.evetech.net/characters/401676110/portrait?size=64)
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1390
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Posted - 2012.02.08 01:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote: Every now and then something comes up as being simply impossible because of similar issues. I think POS code is mentioned every now and then.
There are some fantastic dev quotes regarding POS code. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
![Issler Dainze Issler Dainze](https://images.evetech.net/characters/179116309/portrait?size=64)
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
644
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Posted - 2012.02.08 01:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
I think CCP gives bots just enough attention to seem to be concerned but really isn't that interested solving the problem as there is an economic benefit for them to let the botting continue. $$$ because of the players that quit over botting < $$ from plexes and what not that results from botting. Those plexes have to get bought by someone.
As a software engineer with 45 years of experience I can say you could do a lot to make bot-ing much harder and to regularly break bots that did manage to get around stuff CCP did to make bot-ing harder.
The fact that we haven't seen any "technology" solutions introduced in Eve and that CCP continues the "direct monitor and investigate response to player reports" seems to support CCP's relative lack of concern to me.
It is a cat and mouse game so I agree a sufficiently motivated and clever mouse will avoid the cat, but this looks to be a well fed cat with other toys it finds more interesting than a lowly botting mouse (that might just be paying for some of the catnip).
Issler
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![Serene Repose Serene Repose](https://images.evetech.net/characters/964766469/portrait?size=64)
Serene Repose
Perkone Caldari State
222
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Posted - 2012.02.08 03:31:00 -
[66] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The OP is pure balderdash. If CCP wanted no botting, CCP could code for no botting. It wouldn't take an army of enforcers to monitor the server night and day. If they wanted to close the hole, they could close it. A first-year computer science student could. I assume, then, that you're a first-year (at least) CompSci student, and are willing to instruct a group of professional programmers with nearly a decade of experience on how to do this? Even if they won't take your advice, please do enlighten us proles, for the sake of knowledge. You so funny GI. I love you long time.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
![Dodona Dodona](https://images.evetech.net/characters/661071443/portrait?size=64)
Dodona
EntroPraetorian Academy EntroPraetorian Aegis
7
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Posted - 2012.02.08 03:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
This is the part where I shamelessly promote my own idea on getting everyday players to combat bots.
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![RubyPorto RubyPorto](https://images.evetech.net/characters/401676110/portrait?size=64)
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1392
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Posted - 2012.02.08 03:53:00 -
[68] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The OP is pure balderdash. If CCP wanted no botting, CCP could code for no botting. It wouldn't take an army of enforcers to monitor the server night and day. If they wanted to close the hole, they could close it. A first-year computer science student could. I assume, then, that you're a first-year (at least) CompSci student, and are willing to instruct a group of professional programmers with nearly a decade of experience on how to do this? Even if they won't take your advice, please do enlighten us proles, for the sake of knowledge. You so funny GI. I love you long time.
So either you are (or have been) a first year Comp-Sci Student and can explain how to do this, or you have no idea what capabilities a first year Comp-Sci student has and likely have no idea of the complexity of the problem you say is trivial.
Serene Repose wrote: No...what you fail to mention is members of CCP are botting as players. They're also in cahoots with friends of theirs in other corps and alliances who bot. It's, after all, their sandbox first and foremost.
I'll ask again:
Do you have any evidence to back up your outlandish claim that CCP employees run (or have knowledge of specific) active botting operations? Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
![Valentyn3 Valentyn3](https://images.evetech.net/characters/2036206794/portrait?size=64)
Valentyn3
11
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Posted - 2012.02.08 06:08:00 -
[69] - Quote
Bots and bot related activities are the Reptoid Shadow Goverments of the MMO world. Frequent squinting even in low light? You may be showing early signs of Brock Eye Syndrome. Talk to your doctor today. |
![Hakaru Ishiwara Hakaru Ishiwara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1021313924/portrait?size=64)
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
72
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Posted - 2012.02.08 07:35:00 -
[70] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Serene Repose wrote:The OP is pure balderdash. If CCP wanted no botting, CCP could code for no botting. It wouldn't take an army of enforcers to monitor the server night and day. If they wanted to close the hole, they could close it. A first-year computer science student could.
No...what you fail to mention is members of CCP are botting as players. They're also in cahoots with friends of theirs in other corps and alliances who bot. It's, after all, their sandbox first and foremost.
The rest of us? They just want our money so they can keep the servers up and running...since all botters pay in PLEX.
It's not rocket science.
Tell that to Blizzard. They spent buckets of money and manpower on Warden and... surprise... the botters got around it. If you had any evidence to back up your outlandish claims about CCP employees running (or knowing of) botting operations, I'm sure you'd have posted it, but just in case; Do you have any evidence to back up your outlandish claim that CCP employees run (or have knowledge of) active botting operations? Wow. As if a Red Alliance aligned entity has any ground upon which to stand when it comes to botting discussions. Your space is filled with tengu and machariel bots that consistently produce 5k+ NPC kills per system, daily.
Revel in the ISK that you are making [for now] and stop pretending to own the high-ground in this thread.
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![Ganagati Ganagati](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1837701237/portrait?size=64)
Ganagati
Perkone Caldari State
70
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Posted - 2012.02.08 07:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
Getting rid of local is definitely a great way to help botters. Since bots are pretty quick about what they do, having them watch d-scan would be a quick and easy fix and would allow them to have ample warning... and that's assuming it isn't a memory reading bot. Then it has the advantage. :)
Without local, many players might overlook sectors and move on because they get tired of scanning in every... single... sector. That would give bots that extra peace of mind they need to keep at it.
Remove local- support botting! :) Proof Titans are rare (just another null battle): http://i.imgur.com/CY6x4.jpg-áBattles in EVE can look kinda silly sometimes, huh? |
![RubyPorto RubyPorto](https://images.evetech.net/characters/401676110/portrait?size=64)
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1394
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Posted - 2012.02.08 08:06:00 -
[72] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:]Wow. As if a Red Alliance aligned entity has any ground upon which to stand when it comes to botting discussions. Your space is filled with tengu and machariel bots that consistently produce 5k+ NPC kills per system, daily.
Revel in the ISK that you are making [for now] and stop pretending to own the high-ground in this thread.
Yeah, I've played this game before ad nauseaum, but,
What evidence do you have to back up your claims?
Furthermore: A thread where another EvE-O regular and I tried to get someone making similar claims to back them with evidence for ~20 pages and he tried to weasel his way around the fact that he had none. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
![Hakaru Ishiwara Hakaru Ishiwara](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1021313924/portrait?size=64)
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
72
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Posted - 2012.02.08 14:11:00 -
[73] - Quote
Not going to fall into that trap. Trolling 9/10.
CCP, as owner of the EVE IP and service systems, has all of the data available it needs to observe, document and take action on large-scale botting networks and yet they persist across vast regions of space and over the course of many years. It is CCP's choice whether or not they take action. From my perspective, it is clear what choice they have made: let the bot managers rule supreme.
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![RubyPorto RubyPorto](https://images.evetech.net/characters/401676110/portrait?size=64)
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1399
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 01:18:00 -
[74] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Not going to fall into that trap. Trolling 9/10. CCP, as owner of the EVE IP and service systems, has all of the data available it needs to observe, document and take action on large-scale botting networks and yet they persist across vast regions of space and over the course of many years. It is CCP's choice whether or not they take action. From my perspective, it is clear what choice they have made: let the bot managers rule supreme.
What experience or evidence do you have to back up those claims?
For instance, do you know how to discern between a bot and a farmer with certainty given limited data (not everything can be logged because of server and data storage issues)?
Do you have evidence to prove that those RA aligned systems you mention are generating those 5k kills illegitimately?
It's not a troll nor is it a trap when I simply ask why you have come to a certain conclusion. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
![cyndrogen cyndrogen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/320330614/portrait?size=64)
cyndrogen
Occultum Scientia
26
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Posted - 2012.02.09 01:54:00 -
[75] - Quote
I'm in ALLIANCE A
I want to wage war and eliminate ALLIANCE B
I report and ban several false "BOTS" and abuse my police power....
That would never happen? Riiiight, just like cops in real life never PLANT evidence.
Please.
The solution is to make Mining and other game mechanics that allow easy macro creation to be remade so you CAN"T mine without human intelligence.
For one I would REMOVE all belts from overview and make them SCANNABLE only via probes. The better your skills the better chance you have of getting GOOD ore.
This would also take out ALL noobs out of the mining profession and force them to run missions in the beginning until they can cross train for mining barges and help stabilize the market. Only legitimate miners should be allowed to mine ore via HIGHSEC contracts.
Make it less profitable for individuals to mine to encourage team play. This would help to keep a cluster of miners together making them better gank targets as well as earn more isk and reward team play. |
![Ascendic Ascendic](https://images.evetech.net/characters/596394699/portrait?size=64)
Ascendic
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
43
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Posted - 2012.02.09 06:05:00 -
[76] - Quote
Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:You can just google for bots and look at their websites, manuals etc to see that you're wrong. All the popular bots use local chat to detect hostiles. In fact I couldn't even find one that uses another method of detecing hostiles.
Are you admitting to intentionally searching for a bot?
BAN THIS MAN! |
![Krios Ahzek Krios Ahzek](https://images.evetech.net/characters/91231883/portrait?size=64)
Krios Ahzek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
492
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 06:08:00 -
[77] - Quote
cyndrogen wrote:
The solution is to make Mining and other game mechanics that allow easy macro creation to be remade so you CAN"T mine without human intelligence.
There is literally no way to program something that does this unless it involves finding a analytical solution to an arbitrarily difficult mathematical problem such as a differential equation.
-áThough All Men Do Despise Us |
![Ancy Denaries Ancy Denaries](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1066220529/portrait?size=64)
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
134
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 18:23:00 -
[78] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:TBH, I believe that CCP pays bot hunting lip service and turns the other way regarding the truly large botting operations in null-sec. The amount of botting subscriptions, whether they are funded with RL cash fees or purchased PLEX, allows Hilmar and his executive cronies those really nice rims on their leased Land Rovers. Plus, those investors need feeding every so often... Ooh look, someone didn't take their medication this morning. Quickly, put on this tinfoil hat! Then they can't get to you! "Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."
"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka |
![Prince Kobol Prince Kobol](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1820786529/portrait?size=64)
Prince Kobol
185
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Posted - 2012.02.09 18:42:00 -
[79] - Quote
First off.. CCP have already killed of one bot although the name escapes me.
However it was a fairly simple OCR Bot.
Whilst CCP can not eliminate bots, they can make life a lot harder for them if they wished.
At the moment you can create 100% untraceable accounts, the client is about as secure as a sieve and it is far too easy to sell characters for rl money.
If CCP made an effort to secure the client and make it so you can not create untraceable accounts then this will go some way in making life a lot more difficult for botters and RMT merchants. |
![Zowie Powers Zowie Powers](https://images.evetech.net/characters/90563609/portrait?size=64)
Zowie Powers
Hole in the wall
48
|
Posted - 2012.02.09 20:46:00 -
[80] - Quote
I make it a personal policy to trust and believe any thread that has "REAL" or "TRUTH" in the title, in capital letters. |
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![Kai LienChow Kai LienChow](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1117328900/portrait?size=64)
Kai LienChow
The Clean Up Crew S E D I T I O N
1
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Posted - 2012.03.17 16:38:00 -
[81] - Quote
So now let me through a curve ball into this whole discussion. Just for a moment lets forget that this is just a game at heart. Lets forget that it is an imaginary universe with all its artificial wonder and glory. Lets do something none of us would ever consider doing (those of us that play the game), and that is to "pretend" that it is real in some very real way.
Consider that in this *real universe that we are actually flying around in these advanced space ships with all this technology around us and that we do not have the "limitations" or even "expectation" of fairness as a part of our universe, truly wild and un-predictable.
Consider that we are as capable of doing anything we have the skills or experiences to do of our own free will (remember now we are pretending still).
Think about the environment that is around us, think about the other players, un-predictable. The equipment, created and provided to us by (CCP or we would I guess consider them the GODS of our universe). Lets focus on that aspect first - why in a universe of such capability are we limited to use/ utilize what is inherently defined by them (in this pretend reality)? Why could I not take the parts off off one ship and put them on another to create my own type of ship? or possibly create my own types of modules that enhance my (in this game reality) in such a way as to benefit myself?
In this false reality - it is entirely unrealistic to think that we have evolved to a point of such capability to be limited as we are in this reality. We are dependent on CCP to define the specifics of the reality we exist in and that is a at its core, unrealistic.
Invention is a false ideology - we cannot truly invent we can only discover that which is programmed for us to uncover through some steps, but it is always predictable.
With regard to Botting - would it not be concievable that in a reality such as this, where there are capabilites such that would be achievable that someone, somewhere would create ways to automate the technology in use? Would it not be concievable that there could be programs that could be utilized in this universe to make life easier? HAVE YOU EVER MINED ? Seriously tedious work (in this reality), I know that in my REAL WORLD, we have evolved ....think about picking cotton, or perhaps more appropriate example is drilling for Oil - much of the work is automated....Sure someone needs to monitor, but do we not have systems in place to alert or warn us of impending danger.
Why would we not have the same or BETTER capability expectations in a reality such as Eve? Why should the game play be limited to that which is only provided or governed by CCP? (BECAUSE THEY OWN THE GAME)? well sure that might be a response, but we pay for it ultimately.
The real reason is MONEY - honestly people, I am not crazy. It is a play on reality, but it ultimate comes down to money, if we could automate the collection of raw materials in game, that can be turned into game currency, that can be in some way utilized to then compensate game play time fees, then who would be paying CCP for playing the game with REAL MONEY....no one would.
IT is a safety in a way - for CCP to maintain control. You as a player will like in someways, the Matrix movie characters, will never see the reality the same way as someone who had been freed of it. CCP holds all. Limitation is another measure of control. When you play the game, in this reality - you are at the mercy of the MCP (TRON), comply or be derezzed. Such is the way of the online game.
To sum up - i think it is really unfair that this game is called a sandbox, truly it is not in many ways, as it is scripted to behave in certain ways, and while there are unpredictable entities (players) that affect the outcome in predictable ways, there really are no acceptable "UNPREDICTable" scenarios that can occur. Any such unpredictable scenarios would be tagged as against the EULA and the "anomolie" would be eliminated.
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![Prince Kobol Prince Kobol](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1820786529/portrait?size=64)
Prince Kobol
249
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Posted - 2012.03.17 17:08:00 -
[82] - Quote
Cebraio wrote:Serene Repose wrote:... The rest of us? They just want our money so they can keep the servers up and running...since all botters pay in PLEX.
It's not rocket science.
It's not rocket science to understand that EVERY PLEX was paid for with real money that landed in the pocket of CCP. Yet people like you fail to understand it. Luckily that means I don't have to comment the rest of your post.
No, you just Fail period.
It is a know fact that many RMT Sites participate in acquiring goods using stolen credit card / banking details.
Let me spell it out for you step by step.
1. Create an army untraceable accounts by using a VM Hosting Service and fake details.
2. Use stolen credit card / bank details to purchase plex via 3rd party site
3. Redeem PLEX - sell for isk - transfer isk to idiot who has placed an order via your RMT site.
At which point does CCP receive real money.. that's right they didn't.
Also when talking about RMT Sites you will find that a large proportion of their stock of isk comes from buying isk from RL Players. This is much easier then having to employee people to farm 24/7 and if the botters are caught it has nothing to do with them.
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![Stragak Stragak](https://images.evetech.net/characters/697003181/portrait?size=64)
Stragak
Mangi Consilii S E D I T I O N
0
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Posted - 2012.03.17 17:25:00 -
[83] - Quote
I got all these invention skills time to put them to use. Increase number of 'player made' ships. Something that you can look at and say " Now how can I make it better tailored to do the things I do"
T3 is a excellent start put still predefined outcomes I add this and I get that. Time to think out of the box CCP and make this game a sandbox. This game has always had an active player base and you tell us that you have given the tools to do so for a so called 'sand box', make it unpredictable what I might fly based on my ship, make it look different, allow the nanites to do their job of fusing this masterpiece together and selling bpcs of named ship. Default ships are just that that nothing I consider to be truly sand box idea for the 21st century. Combine Battleships forever type theme to Eve and man you well have my heart.
So where is my Battleship with whip charged Slaves slamming out the corridors of my ship so I can line it with more spirits and exotic dancers with my sliver plated ash tray and rolling by the station undock at 2 m/s so everyone can see me. |
![Nova Fox Nova Fox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/656055035/portrait?size=64)
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3441
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Posted - 2012.03.17 19:23:00 -
[84] - Quote
Widemouth Deepthroat wrote:You can just google for bots and look at their websites, manuals etc to see that you're wrong. All the popular bots use local chat to detect hostiles. In fact I couldn't even find one that uses another method of detecing hostiles.
To be honest I have never heard of a bot using 'screen' shot as a methood of botting as its rather inefficent to relay data.
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![Nova Fox Nova Fox](https://images.evetech.net/characters/656055035/portrait?size=64)
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
3441
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Posted - 2012.03.17 19:24:00 -
[85] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Cebraio wrote:Serene Repose wrote:... The rest of us? They just want our money so they can keep the servers up and running...since all botters pay in PLEX.
It's not rocket science.
It's not rocket science to understand that EVERY PLEX was paid for with real money that landed in the pocket of CCP. Yet people like you fail to understand it. Luckily that means I don't have to comment the rest of your post. No, you just Fail period. It is a know fact that many RMT Sites participate in acquiring goods using stolen credit card / banking details. Let me spell it out for you step by step. 1. Create an army untraceable accounts by using a VM Hosting Service and fake details. 2. Use stolen credit card / bank details to purchase plex via 3rd party site 3. Redeem PLEX - sell for isk - transfer isk to idiot who has placed an order via your RMT site. At which point does CCP receive real money.. that's right they didn't. Also when talking about RMT Sites you will find that a large proportion of their stock of isk comes from buying isk from RL Players. This is much easier then having to employee people to farm 24/7 and if the botters are caught it has nothing to do with them.
VM ware doesnt work the recent round of bot complaints verifies such.
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![Prince Kobol Prince Kobol](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1820786529/portrait?size=64)
Prince Kobol
249
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Posted - 2012.03.17 19:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
In the example I gave using the VM Ware Hosting Site is just for creating a character to redeem plex and then transfer the isk to somebody else.
On a side note there are several botting programs that are still working via VM Ware without any issues however these bot software do not use OCR but python injection.
The issues the other botting problems are having from what I can tell is one of lag however I believe they have already found a work around.
For me CCP need to do 2 things if they are serious about botting / RMT.
1. Stop the ability to create untraceable accounts
2. Harden the launcher to stop anybody and his dog being able to inject python
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