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Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 15:40:00 - [1] In the spirit of this post from a goonie... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=664623 I am going to ask a few questions about the war. Lets see if they live up to their word and resist trashing it. Facts I know about the current southern war. 1. Bob is back in Delve. 2. Bob has not lost membership, and its sovereignty has stabilized. As has the membership if FIX which has seen a rebound, and if I had to guess, I would say they have acquired some major capital fleet assets and pilots based on when the growth in FIX occured. It has yet to be shown that Bob has lost any real combat power. http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=BOB If you compare charts, there have not been any major changes in the past 30 days for either Bob or Goonswarm, and a look at the chart would say that Goonswarm membership is more volatile, indicating large numbers but a potential weakness in their depth of commitment to Goonswarm. http://www.eve-maps.com/outpostalert/alliancechart.asp?FilterType=Alliance&FilterBy=OHGOD 3. Many of the best merc corps in Eve have moved to Period Basis to supplement MC. 4. Triumvirate sits on the northern flank of the battlefield. 5. Bob has something like 2 trillion isk or something stupid like that and if any merc can be bought, they can buy them. 6. BOB/MC have not had a major engagement where they have shot at each other. As a matter of fact, no one has made a major attempt to take Delve at all, no one has even tried reconnaissance in force or thunder runs in Delve. To date, action has primarily been of a harassing nature. Put all those known elements together and one can draw the conclusion that rather than being dead, that Bob is actually in position for a major counter attack backed by Tri and MC. And given the overblown rhetoric, the impact of such a move would be disastrous for the Goons. There are already forces positioned for a classic pincer movement pointed straight at Omist. There is a classic tactic to pull back to a defensive position, string your enemy out, and draw them in, and then attack. At this time, when Goonies and friends seem to have had the most success, would be the perfect time to launch a demoralizing attack, especially when they have essentially gone on the forums and all but declared victory. They are all spread out, and their fleets are distributed. We know the character of BoB, and they have made bold strategic moves in the past. They will probably try to make a major attack if they are anything like the BoB of 3 months ago or 6 months ago. If any attack reached Omist, even if it can' be sustained, the Goonswarm alliance might collapse as shocked members watch 12 months of work go down the tubes and many members with weak commitment may simply give up. There may yet be an existential threat to Goonswarm, primarily because Goon culture is unstable. I am playing the devils advocate here, bringing up some points that have may have merit, but I do not necessarily believe in order to make a point as to whether or not Goons can take this seriously, and we can actually have a discussion on the merits of the issue. Also, if you think a post is stupid and not worth your time, then why reply and put it back on the front page of the forum? Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Phishy Gamma Haulers Against Drama GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 15:50:00 - [2] Thank you for blowing the lid on this surprise assault on our strongholds in Omist. I am alerting our directorate about this post immediately so that they can realign our forces to meet this new threat.
waferzankko Caldari Bears Inc Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.20 15:50:00 - [3] Epic
NATMav F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.12.20 15:56:00 - [4] Nobody new is going to join BoB in their defense at this late stage. If, and only if, BoB is able to repel the attack mounting against them, will you see more forces wanting to ride BoB's coat tails, and then it will only be for their own benefit, not BoB's. The cards are dealt, bets have been made, the only thing left to see is who blinks first. Farham: "Remember, sometimes evolution ends in extinction."
Khanid Kutie I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp	Posted - 2007.12.20 15:56:00 - [5] Originally by: Re Mi Put all those known elements together and one can draw the conclusion that rather than being dead, that Bob is actually in position for a major counter attack backed by Tri and MC. i know for a fact that IF Tri leadership decided to help BoB fight back, that theyd lose a great majority of their members. Tri has stated on several occasions that theyre involvement in CA space is purely for the pewpew of it all. I doubt that Tri leadership would jeopordize their membership numbers by backing BoB. They have a deep hatred (but profound respect) for BoB, and dont really care too much if BoB is having problems tbqhf.
amagonsan Minmatar Rising Force R i s e	Posted - 2007.12.20 15:58:00 - [6] Goons are not alone and neighter is BOB, if you compaire the 2 then yes BOB would crush goons in an instant, but as goons have alot of "friends" that want to see BoB dead, things are very differant. I seriously doubt that Tri would join forces with BoB.. oh they will use the bob-war to their advantage but tri and bob allied, well thats going to take alot of diplomatics before i can see that happen. Atm BoB is chosing their engagements carefully knowing full well if they commit their forces to one thing, that something else is vulnerable. But BoB is getting exactly what they want: pvp at home, against overwelming odds. The only thing that can destroy BoB is them selfs, but they all know what they signed up to do when they joined BoB, and owning land, wasn't in it.
Duncan Bannatyne BioDyne Industries	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:04:00 - [7] Originally by: Khanid Kutie Originally by: Re Mi Put all those known elements together and one can draw the conclusion that rather than being dead, that Bob is actually in position for a major counter attack backed by Tri and MC. i know for a fact that IF Tri leadership decided to help BoB fight back, that theyd lose a great majority of their members. Tri has stated on several occasions that theyre involvement in CA space is purely for the pewpew of it all. I doubt that Tri leadership would jeopordize their membership numbers by backing BoB. They have a deep hatred (but profound respect) for BoB, and dont really care too much if BoB is having problems tbqhf. ^^ Truth. Duncan Bannatyne The Dragons Are Taking Over...
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:11:00 - [8] Originally by: amagonsan Goons are not alone and neighter is BOB, if you compaire the 2 then yes BOB would crush goons in an instant, but as goons have alot of "friends" that want to see BoB dead, things are very differant. I seriously doubt that Tri would join forces with BoB.. oh they will use the bob-war to their advantage but tri and bob allied, well thats going to take alot of diplomatics before i can see that happen. Atm BoB is chosing their engagements carefully knowing full well if they commit their forces to one thing, that something else is vulnerable. But BoB is getting exactly what they want: pvp at home, against overwelming odds. The only thing that can destroy BoB is them selfs, but they all know what they signed up to do when they joined BoB, and owning land, wasn't in it. What if they paid the 100 billion isk? Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:13:00 - [9] Originally by: amagonsan Goons are not alone and neighter is BOB, if you compaire the 2 then yes BOB would crush goons in an instant, but as goons have alot of "friends" that want to see BoB dead, things are very differant. These aren't your daddy's Goons, or haven't you been keeping score this last year? BoB vs. Goons straight up would no longer be a foregone conclusion, and I suspect your posturing otherwise is just leftover spite from being kicked off the block by the aforementioned Goons.
Elder Bob GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Re Mi If any attack reached Omist, even if it can' be sustained, the Goonswarm alliance might collapse as shocked members watch 12 months of work go down the tubes and many members with weak commitment may simply give up. There may yet be an existential threat to Goonswarm, primarily because Goon culture is unstable. It is, of course, completely true that Goons can't deal with losing battles. I understand we collapse at the first sign of hardship. Anyway, history has proven that if we lose Omist, the entire alliance falls apart. Right guys? ________________
EVIL SYNNs Minmatar The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:31:00 - [11] speaking for myself and no one else. If I see my wallet blinky with +100Billion (or what ever was being spoken about) I would support the team that paid me. Its true I can be bought, does that make me a merc? or just cheap! NO SIG REQURIED
von Goethe Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:36:00 - [12] I don't think you get inactive purges.
Gontard Minmatar E-Truth	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke Originally by: amagonsan Goons are not alone and neighter is BOB, if you compaire the 2 then yes BOB would crush goons in an instant, but as goons have alot of "friends" that want to see BoB dead, things are very differant. These aren't your daddy's Goons, or haven't you been keeping score this last year? BoB vs. Goons straight up would no longer be a foregone conclusion, and I suspect your posturing otherwise is just leftover spite from being kicked off the block by the aforementioned Goons. We can see from the amount of progress you have made in the past weeks. Without RA/AAA you can't move a thing. Don't get to high, as eve military power goonswarm is around 2 x youwhat. Translated, this mean you can't beat any decent mid+ size alliance on your own.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Phishy Thank you for blowing the lid on this surprise assault on our strongholds in Omist. I am alerting our directorate about this post immediately so that they can realign our forces to meet this new threat. Your sarcasm is noted. I am playing the devils advocate. I do not necessarily believe everything that I wrote, I don't believe Tri will sign on with Bob, but what if they did? I just want to ask the question. Also, I am trying to respond to a question posed by a goon member in this thread. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=664623 It took you all of 10 seconds to flame my post. Maybe I am not the most knowledgeable about 0.0 politics, but I follow it because it is helpful in knowing what to sell and where in Empire, usually on the trade routes to areas that need certain goods a few jumps out of 0.0 space. So I do have a genuine interest in what happens there and what is going on. It is frustrating at times NEVER being able to ask even the most simple question without a disproportionate response. I was able to get a factual response, that Tri would probably lose members if they signed on with Bob. That is the kind of information I find useful in painting a picture of what is going on. From my point of view it would tell me that selling hulls in that area probably won' be necessary in Amarr space as the war will be over before I could get a supply chain up. Its useful information. If there was even a remote chance of Tri remaining engaged over the long term I would send an alt out to check prices more frequently and potentially set up shop nearby. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
gamarus D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:38:00 - [15] I can not speak for our leadership but alligning ourselves with BOB - for any amount of ISK, would not be recepted very well by the members. Besides, it would invite direct attacks on our soverenity from practically all our neighbours and very possibly a revolt from the alliances reciding in our space. I know we on repeated occations have invited attacks on ourselves, but outright suicide? no. In the same line of thought, our value to BOB would be neglible if we were involved in defencive operations within hours of showing alleigance to BOB. I appologice for thypos in advance.
Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Re Mi 2. Bob has not lost membership, and its sovereignty has stabilized. It has yet to be shown that Bob has lost any real combat power. They've kept their numbers stable by hoovering up the membership of their failed pets, which is why so many of the pets have completely collapsed. These days it's not uncommon to see pilots in BoB who were very recently in alliances like RISE, EXE, and CORM. Slapping a [BOB] tag on these people doesn't remedy their ineptitude.
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:52:00 - [17] Edited by: Ponderous Thunderstroke on 20/12/2007 16:52:44 Originally by: Gontard Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke Originally by: amagonsan Goons are not alone and neighter is BOB, if you compaire the 2 then yes BOB would crush goons in an instant, but as goons have alot of "friends" that want to see BoB dead, things are very differant. These aren't your daddy's Goons, or haven't you been keeping score this last year? BoB vs. Goons straight up would no longer be a foregone conclusion, and I suspect your posturing otherwise is just leftover spite from being kicked off the block by the aforementioned Goons. We can see from the amount of progress you have made in the past weeks. Without RA/AAA you can't move a thing. Don't get to high, as eve military power goonswarm is around 2 x youwhat. Translated, this mean you can't beat any decent mid+ size alliance on your own. Please don't refer to Goonswarm with pronouns that give the appearance that I am a member, as I have stated many, many times that I am not a Goon, am not from SA, and do not have a 'goon alt' or 'goon main'. I simply wave pom-poms for them. I also think your assessment is bit off. Actually, by "a bit", I mean "ridiculously". EDIT: Also, please, post with you main. I can. So can you.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 16:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Elder Bob Originally by: Re Mi If any attack reached Omist, even if it can' be sustained, the Goonswarm alliance might collapse as shocked members watch 12 months of work go down the tubes and many members with weak commitment may simply give up. There may yet be an existential threat to Goonswarm, primarily because Goon culture is unstable. It is, of course, completely true that Goons can't deal with losing battles. I understand we collapse at the first sign of hardship. Anyway, history has proven that if we lose Omist, the entire alliance falls apart. Right guys? You have all but declared victory. What happens if you can't finish off Bob? I never said they could take over your home base, the main thrust of my argument is that Bob, knowing their situation might opt to make a major attack. If they can drive to anywhere near your home systems it would be a huge propaganda victory for them, and all of the talk on the forums would be reversed to be the Goon "failure to deliver". They don't have to take your space, all they need to do is show the flag in your home systems and they win (and by winning I man survive). A lot of people might take a step or 2 back and give Bob some breathing room. Again, not saying they will do that, but it could happen. I don't think my analysis of Goonswarm is wrong, there is a loyal core I bet, there must be or you all would have fallen apart long ago like most alliances do, but I also think there are a lot of ppl in your alliance who and don' seem all that dedicated, as your member statistics fluctuate a lot, people come and go from you alliance a lot. What will happen if you suddenly face adversity? Will some people quit? I think so. If you lose a couple of major battles and it looks like another 3 months of POS warfare to get back where you are now, how will your members react? If you lose 500-1000 members it probably won' mean much in combat power, but it will look terrible to any potential or current allies. Then what happens? Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Elder Bob GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Re Mi You have all but declared victory. What happens if you can't finish off Bob? I never said they could take over your home base, the main thrust of my argument is that Bob, knowing their situation might opt to make a major attack. If they can drive to anywhere near your home systems it would be a huge propaganda victory for them, and all of the talk on the forums would be reversed to be the Goon "failure to deliver". They don't have to take your space, all they need to do is show the flag in your home systems and they win (and by winning I man survive). A lot of people might take a step or 2 back and give Bob some breathing room. Again, not saying they will do that, but it could happen. I don't think my analysis of Goonswarm is wrong, there is a loyal core I bet, there must be or you all would have fallen apart long ago like most alliances do, but I also think there are a lot of ppl in your alliance who and don' seem all that dedicated, as your member statistics fluctuate a lot, people come and go from you alliance a lot. What will happen if you suddenly face adversity? Will some people quit? I think so. If you lose a couple of major battles and it looks like another 3 months of POS warfare to get back where you are now, how will your members react? If you lose 500-1000 members it probably won' mean much in combat power, but it will look terrible to any potential or current allies. Then what happens? One would assume, what would happen would be exactly what happened the last time it happened. I don't know if you've been around long enough to realise (alts make that kind of judgement hard), but all this has happened before. After the fall of LV, we pushed forwards and took systems in Feythabolis. Then, in the era of the unstoppable titan, we were pushed out of Feythabolis, out of Omist and began losing systems in Tenerifis. All this did was cause a regroup on our side (as BoB may yet experience) - even before the Titan nerf, BoB had been pushed out of XGH and were losing ground in 9-9. As for Goonswarm losing members, it's never really been a problem for us. The core of Goonswarm plays Eve to play as Goonfleet. Most would quit Eve before quitting Goonfleet. Even in our times of greatest hardship (the BoB/Syndicate experience and the Tenerifis invasion), we've shown a pretty decent ability to stick together. I'd like to think that will continue. Only time will tell. ________________
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Elder Bob Originally by: Re Mi You have all but declared victory. What happens if you can't finish off Bob? I never said they could take over your home base, the main thrust of my argument is that Bob, knowing their situation might opt to make a major attack. If they can drive to anywhere near your home systems it would be a huge propaganda victory for them, and all of the talk on the forums would be reversed to be the Goon "failure to deliver". They don't have to take your space, all they need to do is show the flag in your home systems and they win (and by winning I man survive). A lot of people might take a step or 2 back and give Bob some breathing room. Again, not saying they will do that, but it could happen. I don't think my analysis of Goonswarm is wrong, there is a loyal core I bet, there must be or you all would have fallen apart long ago like most alliances do, but I also think there are a lot of ppl in your alliance who and don' seem all that dedicated, as your member statistics fluctuate a lot, people come and go from you alliance a lot. What will happen if you suddenly face adversity? Will some people quit? I think so. If you lose a couple of major battles and it looks like another 3 months of POS warfare to get back where you are now, how will your members react? If you lose 500-1000 members it probably won' mean much in combat power, but it will look terrible to any potential or current allies. Then what happens? One would assume, what would happen would be exactly what happened the last time it happened. I don't know if you've been around long enough to realise (alts make that kind of judgement hard), but all this has happened before. After the fall of LV, we pushed forwards and took systems in Feythabolis. Then, in the era of the unstoppable titan, we were pushed out of Feythabolis, out of Omist and began losing systems in Tenerifis. All this did was cause a regroup on our side (as BoB may yet experience) - even before the Titan nerf, BoB had been pushed out of XGH and were losing ground in 9-9. As for Goonswarm losing members, it's never really been a problem for us. The core of Goonswarm plays Eve to play as Goonfleet. Most would quit Eve before quitting Goonfleet. Even in our times of greatest hardship (the BoB/Syndicate experience and the Tenerifis invasion), we've shown a pretty decent ability to stick together. I'd like to think that will continue. Only time will tell. Thanks, thats exactly the kind of info I am looking for, factual and gives some insight. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Pesadel0 Vagabundos	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:20:00 - [21] Originally by: Snowden Vel Originally by: Re Mi 2. Bob has not lost membership, and its sovereignty has stabilized. It has yet to be shown that Bob has lost any real combat power. They've kept their numbers stable by hoovering up the membership of their failed pets, which is why so many of the pets have completely collapsed. These days it's not uncommon to see pilots in BoB who were very recently in alliances like RISE, EXE, and CORM. Slapping a [BOB] tag on these people doesn't remedy their ineptitude. This comming from a warrior samurai pvp god goon is priceless.
Cvuos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Re Mi If you compare charts, there have not been any major changes in the past 30 days for either Bob or Goonswarm I am afraid this observation has a simpler cause than you would expect. Look at the bottom of the page: Data Refreshed: Alliance Members & Sovereighty 28-Nov-07. Outpost Ownership 28-Nov-07. New Outposts 18-Nov-07
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:26:00 - [23] Originally by: Cvuos Originally by: Re Mi If you compare charts, there have not been any major changes in the past 30 days for either Bob or Goonswarm I am afraid this observation has a simpler cause than you would expect. Look at the bottom of the page: Data Refreshed: Alliance Members & Sovereighty 28-Nov-07. Outpost Ownership 28-Nov-07. New Outposts 18-Nov-07 Good point, I had an old link bookmarked. I apologize. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Snowden Vel Originally by: Re Mi 2. Bob has not lost membership, and its sovereignty has stabilized. It has yet to be shown that Bob has lost any real combat power. They've kept their numbers stable by hoovering up the membership of their failed pets, which is why so many of the pets have completely collapsed. These days it's not uncommon to see pilots in BoB who were very recently in alliances like RISE, EXE, and CORM. Slapping a [BOB] tag on these people doesn't remedy their ineptitude. Here is a question though. Yes those alliances went down in flames. But what it because they had bad pilots or bad leadership? I have often heard that the leaders were indecisive, like in Youwhat at the end. I have not heard that criticism of Bob. So if Bob has gained a bunch of experienced capital pilots and pvpers, and paired them with really good FC's, won't that make those players fight much better? Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Crimson Ghostly GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Re Mi You have all but declared victory. There are no goons -dbp
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Crimson Ghostly Originally by: Re Mi You have all but declared victory. There are no goons -dbp And by that you mean what exactly. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Elder Bob GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:45:00 - [27] Edited by: Elder Bob on 20/12/2007 17:45:14 Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: Crimson Ghostly Originally by: Re Mi You have all but declared victory. There are no goons -dbp And by that you mean what exactly. I presume itt means that we wouldn't be the only people to declare victory prematurely; over a year ago now, BoB leadership made a post with those words, their claim that our alliance was destroyed. They notably also said that Goonswarm would never be allowed to build up or hold space in 0.0 ever again. I guess in the end, that didn't work out so well. ________________
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.20 17:48:00 - [28] Originally by: Elder Bob Edited by: Elder Bob on 20/12/2007 17:45:14 Originally by: Re Mi Originally by: Crimson Ghostly Originally by: Re Mi You have all but declared victory. There are no goons -dbp And by that you mean what exactly. I presume itt means that we wouldn't be the only people to declare victory prematurely; over a year ago now, BoB leadership made a post with those words, their claim that our alliance was destroyed. They notably also said that Goonswarm would never be allowed to build up or hold space in 0.0 ever again. I guess in the end, that didn't work out so well. LOL OK, I get it. I thought it was a matrix reference. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Ocular Shadows GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 18:34:00 - [29] There is more than just the straight numbers in Bob to take into account. While the RSF+Friends power bloc has stayed the same/grown, the GBC has only been losing member alliances such as Rise, Corm, etc. So just looking at Bob's numbers won't give you a good idea of what is going on, you need to take into account all the alliances that were tossed under the train and lost on the way to this juncture in time. On the matter of getting Tri to help, well other than the reasons already listed Tri themselves. There is the matter of Bob's diplomacy skills have been rather lacking as of late. See M.Pire, MC and even D-L to a lesser degree.
Tnilf X.T.R The Covenant Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.20 19:30:00 - [30] Edited by: Tnilf on 20/12/2007 19:35:18
Natas Dog GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 19:57:00 - [31] Edited by: Natas Dog on 20/12/2007 19:58:41 Just to touch on the 'volatile member count' subject, since someone already mentioned but didn't explain; Goonfleet purges inactive members at regular intervals. I'm not in charge of it, but I believe every 30 days we purge any accounts that haven't bothered to log into the game for over a set period of time (1 month I think, I'm not about to dig up the original announcement). All members that get purged lose their access to 'opsec' areas of our forums and get put into a 'vacationers' group which has access to our general BS and gaming forums. If anyone comes back after being purged they get re-added to the corporation, hence the climb in member count after each purge interval. I'm not so sure BoB has such a mechanism in place to clear their membership of inactive members, and therefore their member count may not wholly represent the number of active pilots in their alliance. As such, I wouldn't read too much into their member count since it's really not in their best interest to purge inactives, as people rely so heavily on the outpost alert site to get a clear picture of how an alliance is faring in this great war. The only time you're likely to see a significant drop in their membership is when a corporation cedes from the alliance at the onset of a failure cascade.
touchvill D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.20 20:01:00 - [32] We have pretty much stayed away from the war since we decided to move away from the coalition attacks (back in March) and focus on personal development. We have done that and we are trying not to get involved in it because as much as it is cool smashing alliances up etc. I feel the scale of which it is taken to is beyond. Battles won/lost are a lot to do with who gets the favourable hand with lag when 500+ are in system. Though I am sure we would not completely rule out fighting for one side or another. I am sure a large isk fee would be needed though to make it worth our while because we are having fun without getting involved. To be honest I don't see why anyone would want/need us to fight with them anyway. ---------- dot the dot then dot the dot then all you have done is dotted two dots. Amazing no?
Louis Lane Minmatar Imperium Holding corp	Posted - 2007.12.20 20:09:00 - [33] Originally by: waferzankko Epic bob alt propaganda there fixed it for you!
Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 20:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Pesadel0 Originally by: Snowden Vel Originally by: Re Mi 2. Bob has not lost membership, and its sovereignty has stabilized. It has yet to be shown that Bob has lost any real combat power. They've kept their numbers stable by hoovering up the membership of their failed pets, which is why so many of the pets have completely collapsed. These days it's not uncommon to see pilots in BoB who were very recently in alliances like RISE, EXE, and CORM. Slapping a [BOB] tag on these people doesn't remedy their ineptitude. This comming from a warrior samurai pvp god goon is priceless. This coming from a guy who makes a point of posting his shuttle kills is priceless.
Laura Baretta Minmatar Cult of the Skulls	Posted - 2007.12.20 20:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Elder Bob It is, of course, completely true that Goons can't deal with losing battles. I understand we collapse at the first sign of hardship. Anyway, history has proven that if we lose Omist, the entire alliance falls apart. Right guys? You can't deny the fact that Goon participation was at an all time low when BoB stood in Omist. The Titan nerf was the point when goons came back and saw their chances increase. Up until that point you could hardly spot goons on CAOD either.
Elder Bob GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.20 20:49:00 - [36] Originally by: Laura Baretta Originally by: Elder Bob It is, of course, completely true that Goons can't deal with losing battles. I understand we collapse at the first sign of hardship. Anyway, history has proven that if we lose Omist, the entire alliance falls apart. Right guys? You can't deny the fact that Goon participation was at an all time low when BoB stood in Omist. The Titan nerf was the point when goons came back and saw their chances increase. Up until that point you could hardly spot goons on CAOD either. Participation was definitely an at all time low then, but we were on the way back before the titan nerf. We retook XGH, and were already making progress in 9-9 before the titan nerf was deployed. However, there was a huge difference between how we reacted to the loss and how most other alliances do. In every other alliance I've seen fall, players have become disillusioned with their losses, they stopped coming on ops and the majority left the alliance. In our case, players because disillusioned, stopped coming on ops and left the game. This meant that as soon as we came out of our leadership crisis (Sesfan is #1) and the rallying call went up, they instantly came back, while in most other alliances, they'd be cowering in Empire by that point. Overall, Goonswarm survived losing Omist completely in tact. The turning point of BoB's Tenerifis invasion wasn't the titan nerf; it was Sesfan taking control of Goonswarm, ending the leadership crisis we'd been in since Remedial went absent. Not saying the titan nerf didn't help - that's probably been the single largest aid to our war effort. As for our CAOD presence, weren't we still in directorate controlled posting then? If they're allowed to, Goons will post on forums (whether we're winning or not), because our alliance is a forum community. Even when we were routing LV, there was no posting by the general GF membership - we simply weren't allowed to.

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