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BellaDonna Nyghtshade
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
10
   |
Posted - 2012.02.06 12:50:00 -
[1] - Quote
Noticed something curious as I watched an Incursion intel channel for a few days. I thought what I was seeing was just a local anomaly, so I went to several other incursion areas as they hatched and sure enough, the same behaviour repeated over and over like religious clockwork.
A regular Joe/Jane in anything other than billions worth of foolishness hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of getting into a Vanguard fleet.
"Shiny" rules the day.
Seems more than just a bit elitist and snobbish, tbpfh.
Seems to me there are vested interests in keeping it this way, for the "farming".
Now, I have no dog in this hunt. I make me ISK by the probe and analyzer and am damned glad and happy to do so.
I also don't necessarily disagree with what I see; EvE is, after all, a sandbox, a free-for-all, where both industry and treachery are equally lauded.
What I do see, from a strictly social point of view, is a wicked case of the "haves" and the "have nots".
As in real life, naturally, the "have nots" vastly outnumber the "haves", yet again, as in real life, fail to recognize their potential power as a cohesive group.
Imagine, for a moment, if the average Chinaman and Chinawoman figured out what the rest of the world sees; that they outnumber their oppresive "keepers" by orders of magnitude. If they were to rise up in unison, and understand that many would die but fight anyway...................
I can see the same here, but economically. And I'm absolutely certain this isn't an original idea, but oh, what fun it could be!
It would be a knee-slapping laugh riot if all of the shunned were to band together, locate the Mothership, destroy it and put to an early end the farmer's looting.
What would the "haves" in their shiny ships do? Laugh at first, perhaps, but keep that income stream throttled and the tears would soon flow....................................
I seem to recall a group of players who could do this at one point in this game..........before they got fat and lazy.
Perhaps it is time for a new "spoiler regime"?
I have me popcorn ready...............
 |
Demolishar
The 57th Overlanders
231
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 12:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
No. |
BellaDonna Nyghtshade
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
LOL!
Vanguard farmer on radar.
|
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
189
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yes.
And btw, if you had payed attention you would have seen the tears already when Krissada and Darius III and co intervened by killing off the incursions ASAP so they were not farmable anymore. |
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
435
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
What shocking discrimination! How dare these people not let you into their clique and play internet spaceships with you! You should definitely contact your local humanitarian agency and inform them of these heinous crimes being incurred upon you. |
Alexandra Alt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
90
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Ye it's true, pretty much why I never tried incursions, gave up on it a long time ago... One of the reasons I'd like to have them nerfed to the ground tbh, although I don't think game wise they need to. |
Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
231
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
So make a fake loadout in EFT and link it.
Stuff Goes here |
BellaDonna Nyghtshade
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
10
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
St Mio wrote:What shocking discrimination! How dare these people not let you into their clique and play internet spaceships with you! You should definitely contact your local humanitarian agency and inform them of these heinous crimes being incurred upon you.
Reading comprehension not high on your list of abilities I see.
I don't so Incursions, as I clearly stated.
I could care less, personally.
It is merely a social observation.
*MY* shiny ship does very well, thanks.
 |
Honnete Du Decimer
40
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
BellaDonna Nyghtshade wrote:I have me popcorn ready...............
PMS |
Citizen Smif
Comply Or Die
69
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
BellaDonna Nyghtshade wrote:What I do see, from a strictly social point of view, is a wicked case of the "haves" and the "have nots". As in real life, naturally, the "have nots" vastly outnumber the "haves", yet again, as in real life, fail to recognize their potential power as a cohesive group. Imagine, for a moment, if the average Chinaman and Chinawoman figured out what the rest of the world sees; that they outnumber their oppresive "keepers" by orders of magnitude. If they were to rise up in unison, and understand that many would die but fight anyway................... I can see the same here, but economically. And I'm absolutely certain this isn't an original idea, but oh, what fun it could be! It would be a knee-slapping laugh riot if all of the shunned were to band together, locate the Mothership, destroy it and put to an early end the farmer's looting. What would the "haves" in their shiny ships do? Laugh at first, perhaps, but keep that income stream throttled and the tears would soon flow.................................... I seem to recall a group of players who could do this at one point in this game..........before they got fat and lazy. Perhaps it is time for a new "spoiler regime"? I have me popcorn ready...............
I find it slightly concerning that your applying clear Marxist ideals to what is perhaps THE most fair capitalist society in existence. This is a meritocracy, not some socially engineered bourgeois system of oppression.
There is no proliteriat, there are no bourgeois and there is no inequality. There are simply geeks who live in the mum's basements and people with lives.. Invested time = Return. Simple.
Ludicrous analysis & conclusion. Hang your head in shame... comrade. |
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
435
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
To me it's not so much being snobby and elitist, and more about being efficient. There's only so much space in your incursion fleet, and that guy bringing a T2 fit Drake is going to be bringing down the entire team to the point that no one in fleet is going to make any money. And that's what Incursions are about, making money, not about bringing all your buddies along and having fun or donating to charity and uplifting the community.
And as for your noble intentions of rallying the oppressed masses living in poverty and squalor to drag down the rich to their level, good luck with that. You're going to be trying to convince the most apathetic and unmotivated of players into a plan that involves Godlike levels of cat herding. And if you managed to get together a group organized and disciplined enough to finish the Incursions early, surely those poor starving pilots could just... run the Vanguards themselves and not be poor anymore?
Don't get me wrong, I think that highsec incursions have a horribly skewed risk/reward ratio, and I loved all the drama last year when HTIDRaver went around running mom sites while BTL/TDF had their agreement. It's just that the cynicist in me finds the whole "horde of lower class citizens rioting and sticking it up to the rich 1%" thing laughable at best. |
Citizen Smif
Comply Or Die
69
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
St Mio wrote:To me it's not so much being snobby and elitist, and more about being efficient.
This quote pretty much sums it up. Why would you take a newer player in a 500 dps Maelstrom that can barely fit a tank when you can take a 1100dps Mach? The answer is - you don't.
Don't over-exagerate the problem though. I had no problem getting into fleets in a maelstrom. If you can fit T2 ACs and a T2 tank then most fleets (bar the shiny fleets you so love) will take you. If you can't do that then you shouldn't really be running incursions since your not much of a help to your fleet anyway. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4819
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
BellaDonna Nyghtshade wrote:I have me popcorn ready............... Here are some nice new stats to heat the oil:
In January, 27.03 trillion ISK in bounties and 4.37 trillion ISK in mission rewards were paid out for a total of 31.4 trillion ISK (which, incidentally, lines up very well with the old faucet/sink day slice). Not all of this was done by mission-runners, of course, since those bounties also include ratting, complexes, and anomalies. Still, with 176,862 characters running missions, this gives us at most 177M ISK on average per character over those 31 days (5.7 M ISK per character per day). Since they're not the only source of that bounty ISK, the number will actually be lower than that.
During the same period, 8.13 trillion ISK was paid out in the form of incursion rewards GÇö about -+ of what's being paid out through other forms of NPC murderGǪ
GǪexcept that, in one single day, 302 billion ISK (and 4.7M LP) was paid out to a mere 1,800 incursion runners for an average income of 169.5 M ISK per character for that day alone. They make on average as much in a day as an average mission runner does in a month GÇö maybe even more since the comparative mission runner number is inflated by other bounty-paying activities.
I can't imagine why they'd want to keep this activity contained within the confines of a very small group of peopleGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
189
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 13:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
St Mio wrote:And that's what Incursions are about, making money, not about bringing all your buddies along and having fun or donating to charity and uplifting the community.
And some just run incursions and that is what they do in ... the one with the biggest pile of ISK when EVE dies wins. |
BellaDonna Nyghtshade
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 14:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Citizen Smif wrote:St Mio wrote:To me it's not so much being snobby and elitist, and more about being efficient. This.
I won't argue this at all. It makes perfect sense. Game designs and mechanics are meant to be exploited to the fullest extent, and just as your statement above is true, so it also applies to my own profession.
The faster and more efficiently I run my plexes, the less chance and opportunity for the so-inclined to come along and spoil my fun by either ganking me or worse, stealing my goodies.
The difference that I see is that I can manage to make my fortunes with me various and sundry alts and not rely on the charity, goodwill or even remote cooperation of others in a fleet, corporation or alliance..
From my viewpoint, therein lies the disparity.
Now, I could be completely wrong in my assumptions. I don't run incursions. I have looked at the fleet size requirements for your average Vanguard site, and it seems to me to fall outside the capability of even a triple-boxer to manage, thus forcing one into a fleet-with-others mode.
Certainly, there reaches a point in exploration where the sites are too difficult to multi-box "solo", and I pass these by, but there do not seem to be any correlation between, say DED 5 or 6/10 sites that are soloable and any similar payout in an Incursion site that could be soloable.
And yes, before the harpies chime in, I get it....this is an "MMORPG" and social interaction is encouraged and even demanded at certain levels.
The basic point, however, remains, that when it comes to incursions, a few are able to completely control access to the goodies over the vast masses.......solo play is simply not a possibility.
I struggle to find any other area of EvE where this is true on such a general scale.
Certainly alliances hold the keys to specific moon assets, but they do not control the entire production line; it is simply not possible.
Certainly some have cornered various markets in trading, but they do not control the entire fiscal game; it is simply not possible.
Even Alliances holding sovereignty are subject to the likes of me sneaking about nibbling away at their assets while they laze about, unalert and not paying attention.
A solo player has NO chance, however, at anything other than the most basic, low payout ( read that as not worth the effort ) entry incursion sites.
That is why I think it would be pisser silly to watch a coordinated, repeated effort by those regularly shunned to shut down the incursions at the earliest possible moment, depriving the farmers and their elitist ( efficient, whatever ) cliques their due.
Seems to be perfect EvE play to me. Skewer the other guy, as early and as often as possible.
My best loots, my most savory conquests, come from thieving sites in sov held space. The thrill of taking from the fat and lazy hoarders is....................................... exhilarating.
I could imagine that for those who yearn to run incursions, the same feeling would be had by doing the ultimate incursion site at the expense of those who have relegated them to the dust-bin, and to do it at every opportunity.
Sadly, though, as I said earlier, while there was once an entity in this game who would jump at the chance, they have faded into posturing, blustering bravado, riding on past success and slowly dissolving away into that very "common" melting pot they used to so regularly upset.
Again, I await the rise of a new, vital organization, willing to take on the establishment and assert the will of the masses in unity anew.
I even have Kraft Mac n Cheese flavored salt ready for me bowl of popcorn when it happens.
|
Valei Khurelem
269
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 14:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
St Mio wrote:What shocking discrimination! How dare these people not let you into their clique and play internet spaceships with you! You should definitely contact your local humanitarian agency and inform them of these heinous crimes being incurred upon you.
I love these kind of sarcastic comments, every time I see one it just shows me how far the EVE community has fallen, I should make a collage of them and the people who say them!
"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP." -á - CCP Ytterbium |
Dust Fourtwenty
Dust 515
7
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 14:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Just import a fake fit and use that in your advertisement at the "shiny" racists, everyone does it and nobody will notice. |
BellaDonna Nyghtshade
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 14:50:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dust Fourtwenty wrote:Just import a fake fit and use that in your advertisement at the "shiny" racists, everyone does it and nobody will notice.
Call me wierd, but that's lying, and that's dishonest.
Don't ask me to explain why I think that stealing plexes from alliances in their sov space isn't.
I'm a hypocrite, I guess.
But, in the immortalized words of Doc Holliday, as spoken by Val Kilmer, "My hypocrisy only goes so far."
|
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 15:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
BellaDonna Nyghtshade wrote:Dust Fourtwenty wrote:Just import a fake fit and use that in your advertisement at the "shiny" racists, everyone does it and nobody will notice. Call me wierd, but that's lying, and that's dishonest. Don't ask me to explain why I think that stealing plexes from alliances in their sov space isn't. I'm a hypocrite, I guess. But, in the immortalized words of Doc Holliday, as spoken by Val Kilmer, "My hypocrisy only goes so far."
Yes, you are wierd....... |
Serene Repose
Perkone
Caldari State
218
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 15:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
What the Chinaman's Chance in Hell theory fails to take into account is, a few million Chinese have to die before the takeover is complete. They don't seem to have a lot of volunteers for that duty.
Smokestack lightnin' shinin' just like gold. |
J Kunjeh
371
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 15:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
BellaDonna Nyghtshade wrote:
It would be a knee-slapping laugh riot if all of the shunned were to band together, locate the Mothership, destroy it and put to an early end the farmer's looting.
Well, you're about 2 weeks late to that party. Krissada, Darius III and crew did just that for a few weeks and it worked wonderfully, until they got bored and started getting risk averse and turning into "kill the mom's bears".
"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)"
(The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
211
|
Posted - 2012.02.06 15:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
I disagree OP.
It is not snobbery.
As an FC when I start looking for a fleet of course I take shinnies first...they increase MY isk per hour. Thats all I care about it MY isk per hour. If taking you lower that I do not choose you.
If there is no shinnies and taking you will mean I can run sites and thus increase my isk...I will.
If you want to run inccursions and get picked.
1)Look at the ships that are taken a lot. Not all are supper shinny, and even then some ships like rohks seem to do okay. If I lack shinny dps I take the best of the non shinny.
2)become an FC...you know what is evem more rare than shinies? An FC!
Web sites tell you what ships to call primary and such. Often there is a fleet waiting in the incursion channel with no FC....all you have to do is build up your fleet out of what is there!
You bemoan seeing the incursion channel full of ships not getting taken....well form up and take em out...make some isk and have fun!
Need more-ádecent content a casual player can access in a 1-2h play period that is actually fun and contributes to long term personal and corp goals. This applies to PvE and PvP. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex
Cosmic Consortium
949
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 04:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
How to get your "revenge": take part in assault and HQ fleets instead of trying to get into vanguards. Then when the inevitable vanguard nerf occurs, you will be part of the assault community, and the ex-vanguard shiny fleets will disperse with the winds because assaults are too hard to organise. |
Cipher Jones
300
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 05:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
Lexmana wrote:Yes.
And btw, if you had payed attention you would have seen the tears already when Krissada and Darius III and co intervened by killing off the incursions ASAP so they were not farmable anymore.
Agreed.
What was even funnier is when PL popped some null sec ones just to spite the dbag mom poppers.
Also, the big tough mom popper fleets are scurred to pop the hi sec island incursions. A billion a day running VG's uncontested is good for the soul.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Nephilius
Grey Legionaires
314
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 05:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
Good reason to play solo.
To stand before a man at an inquisition, knowing that he will rejoice when we die, knowing that he will commit us to the stake and its horrors without a moment's hesitation or remorse if we do not satisfy him, is not an experience much less cruel because our inquisitor does not whip us or rack us or shout at us. |
Yummy Tears
The Red Circle Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 05:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
Very little to do with snobbishness and everything to do with people being whiners imo. If you want a fleet, then form one. Gather up all these other "poor" masses and form an 11 man fleet and run some sites.
I taught the class for E-Uni and still Incursion with them for fun. They literally take ANYTHING someone wants to fly so long as it has a tank. Drake with T1 launchers, Brutix with no damage mods in an armor fit. Anything that can tank a site gets accepted and they still manage to make isk from incursions. Certainly a lot more then a random whiner bitching about not being able to get a fleet all the while refusing to FC himself.
FCing incursions are ridiculously easy. All it takes is a minor amount of motivation and you can run sites for as long as you can keep pulling people in. |
Cyzlaki
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
235
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 05:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Thanks, I will. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
330
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 05:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dust Fourtwenty wrote:Just import a fake fit and use that in your advertisement at the "shiny" racists, everyone does it and nobody will notice.
Seriously. I saw a dude posting a shiny vindicator fit so I ship scanned him. He had T1 meta 1 guns and had cargo expanders in his lows.
CARGO EXPANDERS |
Yummy Tears
The Red Circle Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 05:57:00 -
[29] - Quote
I'll even make this easier for you. If you want to FC, but are unsure how, I'll be giving a general incursion class + FCing class for Eve University next weekend (likely saturday or sunday). Feel free to message me in game, and I will give you details on how to attend the class.
Failing that, you can message me and I will provide you a link to an updated audio recording on the class to listen to if you want once it's complete. |
Magnificent Beast
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.13 10:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
i saw a guy in a badly fitted t1 drake, before we left to do incursions, he was given fitting advice, t2 modules to use, and then we took of with him.
i see groups of t1 battleships doing vg's on occassion, they would be happy to take you i guess. they usually dont win contests but they probably do ok, and end up in shiny ships soon enough.
your personal experience may vary. |
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