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Remote Sensor Damps - Did they go too far?

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Seven Six	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:01:00 - [1] Ok, this may sound like a whine, but really I just want to get other peoples thoughts on the matter. I know that remote sensor damps were overpowered before the patch, no denying that, however I personally believe they were nerfed a little too hard. Lets take a look at before: On a non-specialized ship they would have 50% range reduction AND the lock time slow down. - 2 damps could lower a BS range to 20km (+/- 5 km depending on said pilot skills, ship, etc). Lets take a look at now: On a SPECIALIZED ship (ie: keres, arazu, lachesis) they have a 46% (or close to this I'm not logged in right now) range (specialized ship trained to lvl IV), and by doing this NO lock time slow down (ie: using the range reduction script). This means you bring an average BS to around 24km(+/- 6km depending on their ship,skills, and your skills). I think CCP did the right thing with the scripts - you get to use one of the bonuses, however I think they should not have decreased the effectiveness of each ability while using the scripts, especially on the ships that were designed to use them. Now this being said, I am a Gallente pilot so I'm a little biased! Anyways as I said I just want to get other peoples opinions on the matter, especially those non-biased players who do not use damp specialized ships!
Kermis Caldari Racketeers	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:04:00 - [2] I agree, but I'm more hurt by the sensor booster nerf... -- Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment.
Naviset	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:11:00 - [3] Originally by: Seven Six Ok, this may sound like a whine, but really I just want to get other peoples thoughts on the matter. I know that remote sensor damps were overpowered before the patch, no denying that, however I personally believe they were nerfed a little too hard. Lets take a look at before: On a non-specialized ship they would have 50% range reduction AND the lock time slow down. - 2 damps could lower a BS range to 20km (+/- 5 km depending on said pilot skills, ship, etc). Lets take a look at now: On a SPECIALIZED ship (ie: keres, arazu, lachesis) they have a 46% (or close to this I'm not logged in right now) range (specialized ship trained to lvl IV), and by doing this NO lock time slow down (ie: using the range reduction script). This means you bring an average BS to around 24km(+/- 6km depending on their ship,skills, and your skills). I think CCP did the right thing with the scripts - you get to use one of the bonuses, however I think they should not have decreased the effectiveness of each ability while using the scripts, especially on the ships that were designed to use them. Now this being said, I am a Gallente pilot so I'm a little biased! Anyways as I said I just want to get other peoples opinions on the matter, especially those non-biased players who do not use damp specialized ships! I don't fly damp ships and I think they went too far. The nerf was the right thing to do but the damp spec ships need some love now. ECM got massive love when it didn't even need it so I can't really expect balance to get any better though :(
Illyria Ambri RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:15:00 - [4] Too far.. this nerf killed the effectiveness of the Arazu ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master Which is worse.. the Carebear or the pirate that whines about them?
Maeltstome Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:22:00 - [5] I think you'll find the nerf also hit snipers hard aswell, the sensor booster change is a real pain. Also, damps are 100% effective in optimal - you CANNOT overlook this. As it stood they where 100% ecm, even on non-bonused ships. ------- [12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.21 16:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Maeltstome I think you'll find the nerf also hit snipers hard aswell, the sensor booster change is a real pain. Also, damps are 100% effective in optimal - you CANNOT overlook this. As it stood they where 100% ecm, even on non-bonused ships. at 42km. (lvl4 skills) sure you have falloff of 80km people tend to forget that damps have a lower optimal than TD's (altho smaller max range). Also the nerf on sensor boosters is not THAT big, compared with dampners. Keep in mind that you can still lock at 250km at the expense of increased targetting speed, and you can use TC's to boost optimal only and not tracking. That's the only nerf that I can see, but let's be honest, a sniper BS is usually more usefull in a fleet battle situation, and in such situation they only lost lock time and tracking, the first being a maulus admittedly, but not as bad as you might think, and the second being a non-issue since shooting stuff at 150-200km away doesn't require that much tracking. now damps? on top of the ARM nerf, they got a 30% nerf, AND the rigs got nerfed aswell. add the fact that the recons weren't boosted at all, and you see why people complain about this. --- planetary interaction idea!
Johncrab Minmatar Typo Corp	Posted - 2007.12.21 17:01:00 - [7] Edited by: Johncrab on 21/12/2007 17:03:21 It was a 17% nerf to effectiveness per module (with my skills)... so yes, I would say they went too far. Using 2 modules, you get near 40% nerf. Meaning that you almost need 3 modules to have the same effect has 2 used to have.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2007.12.21 17:06:00 - [8] yes, but remember BOOST PATCH!!!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.21 17:16:00 - [9] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton yes, but remember BOOST PATCH!!! Any dev blog detailing what's coming? Any word on when it's coming? Any more information than "ummmmm... the entirety of the Eve community is freaking ****ed so we should throw them a bone for a few minutes until they forget all about it"? -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Iria Ahrens Amarr 101st Space Marine Force Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.21 17:27:00 - [10] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton yes, but remember BOOST PATCH!!! Any dev blog detailing what's coming? Any word on when it's coming? Any more information than "ummmmm... the entirety of the Eve community is freaking ****ed so we should throw them a bone for a few minutes until they forget all about it"? -Liang http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=529
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.21 17:32:00 - [11] Originally by: Iria Ahrens Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton yes, but remember BOOST PATCH!!! Any dev blog detailing what's coming? Any word on when it's coming? Any more information than "ummmmm... the entirety of the Eve community is freaking **ed so we should throw them a bone for a few minutes until they forget all about it"? -Liang http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=529 Right, and this is where they said "oh yeah.. people are ed. We're should promise them some boosts (hehe as if we'd ever really boost anything lollerskittles! what noobs!) Haha we call it the boost patch if u can believe that!!!" ........ I'm still waiting for 'more information'. Or Hell, for Zulupark to know more about recons than "oh... gallente recons got **** over in the patch? I didn't realize that any race other than Caldari had recons!" ... -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
joshmorris Ravenous Inc. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.21 18:32:00 - [12] bumping ... more whines on this issue so we can win and get our ships to disable 1 ship like it used to be able to do \o/ Uber idea solves all !!
UrbanCapt Gallente The Diabolic Abstraction	Posted - 2007.12.21 19:36:00 - [13] Please fix this CCP. MY arazu is parked for good til it can @ least take 1 ship out of a battle. Take in mind that other recons have no issue disabling a ship completely. The falcon pwns a ship with 2 modules if not one depending on skills currently. POST PATCH. ARGHHHHHHHH.... MY ARAZU NEEDS ITS REMOTE DAMPENERS OR I'LL POD MYSELF.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.21 19:38:00 - [14] Originally by: UrbanCapt Please fix this CCP. MY arazu is parked for good til it can @ least take 1 ship out of a battle. Take in mind that other recons have no issue disabling a ship completely. The falcon pwns a ship with 2 modules if not one depending on skills currently. POST PATCH. ARGHHHHHHHH.... MY ARAZU NEEDS ITS REMOTE DAMPENERS OR I'LL POD MYSELF. Uh, want me to take care of that for you? -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2007.12.21 20:02:00 - [15] Originally by: UrbanCapt Please fix this CCP. MY arazu is parked for good til it can @ least take 1 ship out of a battle. Take in mind that other recons have no issue disabling a ship completely. The falcon pwns a ship with 2 modules if not one depending on skills currently. POST PATCH. ARGHHHHHHHH.... MY ARAZU NEEDS ITS REMOTE DAMPENERS OR I'LL POD MYSELF. Well you're one of the lucky ones then. I'm still in that delusional stage where "if I just try hard enough or use a different tactic, this Arazu will really really work". It won't though. It sucks. I can't help my gangmates. I can't do any appreciable damage. I can barely even defend myself. If it weren't for that fact that I use a speed tank I'd have lost the ship about 3 or 4 times by now. At some point I'm going to run into a Inty or a Vaga and I'm going to be sad. Taxman IV: Rogue Agent
SloBones mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.12.21 20:04:00 - [16] Yes I'll get flamed for this but with the nerf they just made the arazu worthless. Yes yes it's not meant to solo bla bla bla. But it's unfair that caldari ECM get a boost (i.e. Scorpions gets boost). If you nerf one nerf all. Nerf ECM!!!!!!!!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2007.12.21 20:19:00 - [17] I am annoyed by the nerf because it affected me but I understand the sentiment. Eve players all too frequently are able to make ships that are pretty badass in a huge range of tactical situations by using mods that are quite flexible in in their applicaiton. It seems like the entire idea of Eve is generally geared towards forcing you to work with a group to be effective, and like it or not that's just how it is much of the time. If you think about it, the change makes complete sense from a technological and blancing perspective. Increasing your sensor range is a simple matter of increasing the power being put through your target acquisition system, but this would do nothing to affect your scan resolution. Forcing you to essentially choose between faster lock and longer lock is a legitimate choice to be made. Sensor damps are a totally different story though, but whould theoritically operate on the same principle. Feeding in the reverse of the signal pinging your ship would cut down on it's effective range but would do nothing to it's scan resolution given that your resolution is being handled at the mechanical level (shifting the array across a sweep area in this case). Damps were basically an i win button if your ship was able to outrun theirs AND get the lock first. Splitting the function in two is a great solution to this. I personally found the decreased targeting range to generally be the more useful function, though admittedly once a mega is inside the horrible pain range of it's blasters that longer lock time was nice to have. At any rate, damps are still completely viable ewar. It just takes more of them to get the same effect as before, but to be FAIR it's no worse than using ECM given the need to use multiple jammers on a target ship to have a good chance of jamming. A single damp is always useful (maybe not as useful as we'd like), but a single jammer isn't. Needing at least 2 damps brings it closer in line to ECM in terms of the number of mods needed to be truly effective overall.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.21 20:38:00 - [18] Originally by: Derek Sigres I am annoyed by the nerf because it affected me but I understand the sentiment. I'm not sure you do... more to follow. Quote: Eve players all too frequently are able to make ships that are pretty badass in a huge range of tactical situations by using mods that are quite flexible in in their applicaiton. It seems like the entire idea of Eve is generally geared towards forcing you to work with a group to be effective, and like it or not that's just how it is much of the time. To be quite honest, with an all-out ewar nerf, we're looking at the only 'variety' and 'flexibility' will be in how much tank or gank you can put onto your ship. This is especially true with the promsied speed nerf. Quote: If you think about it, the change makes complete sense from a technological and blancing perspective. Increasing your sensor range is a simple matter of increasing the power being put through your target acquisition system, but this would do nothing to affect your scan resolution. Forcing you to essentially choose between faster lock and longer lock is a legitimate choice to be made. I don't think anyone denies that scripts are a good idea. They're complaining about the nerf to base values. Quote: Sensor damps are a totally different story though, but whould theoritically operate on the same principle. Feeding in the reverse of the signal pinging your ship would cut down on it's effective range but would do nothing to it's scan resolution given that your resolution is being handled at the mechanical level (shifting the array across a sweep area in this case). Damps were basically an i win button if your ship was able to outrun theirs AND get the lock first. Splitting the function in two is a great solution to this. I personally found the decreased targeting range to generally be the more useful function, though admittedly once a mega is inside the horrible pain range of it's blasters that longer lock time was nice to have. Yes, I think we all have round this to be so. I think, however, that you're missing the practical gang related application of the ship. Quote: At any rate, damps are still completely viable ewar. It just takes more of them to get the same effect as before, but to be FAIR it's no worse than using ECM given the need to use multiple jammers on a target ship to have a good chance of jamming. A single damp is always useful (maybe not as useful as we'd like), but a single jammer isn't. Needing at least 2 damps brings it closer in line to ECM in terms of the number of mods needed to be truly effective overall. Actually, they're not as viable as they were (on a base level). You see, previously, you could take a Domi to roughly 6-8km lock range. This makes it possible to put a web on the battleship reasonably safely. However, with the new battleships, you have real trouble taking a Domi to under 15-20km of lock range. There are battleships that are not even fitting sensor boosters that you can't even approach within T2 scrambling range without being locked completely unpenalized. For amusement, you'll notice that damps are 100% ineffective against close range fit ships. There's two reasons for this. A) You must fit at least one lock range damp for your 'tank' (against drones). B) Once a target has a lock, they are completely unpenalized until they lose lock. You see, the only viable use of damps is now to damp/scram a target and warp in ranged damage dealers (snipers) onto him. I was going to go off on this a bit more, but I realized you probably don't care about the actual application of how Damps were effected. =/ Did I just get trolled? =( -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2007.12.21 21:01:00 - [19] I guess I'm not conveying my opinion in a clear manner, but I'll try to restate in order to remedy this. The damp change was a double nerf as has been pointed out in that even with a script it performs a single function less effectively than before. The reduced effectiveness in a single function is what I don't like. I'm fine with the scripting since it brings the modules in line with ECM in terms of how many mods does it take for it to be effective against a single target. Given that I don't fly Gallente I don't have any business offering an opinion on how it affects them, but people never let that stop them on these forums so I'll do it anyway. As a caldari pilot, one of the perks I enjoy is the ability to sling pain further than most. It might not be a lot of pain when compared to other races but being able to reach out and touch someone made damps an attractive prospect for me. Basically I would use them as my primary tank - hack their range down to minimal and run away while spraying whatever weapons I had at them, hoping I'd get them before they got close enough for a lock. This function of damps has been reduced to an extent but it's still there enough to be effective (just not AS effective) Gallente ships on the other hand tend to favor dealing terrible suffering at point blank range or spewing drones and letting them deal the horrible pain. In this case the damps let you hack their range down enough to let you get close enough to bring your own weapons into play. Has the nerf hurt these people more? Probably but I wouldn't know. Incidentaly my response wasn't meant as a troll, just trying to inject my point of view in a thread that wasn't yet chock full of whines.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.21 21:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Derek Sigres Given that I don't fly Gallente I don't have any business offering an opinion on how it affects them, but people never let that stop them on these forums so I'll do it anyway. Indeed. ;-) Quote: Gallente ships on the other hand tend to favor dealing terrible suffering at point blank range or spewing drones and letting them deal the horrible pain. In this case the damps let you hack their range down enough to let you get close enough to bring your own weapons into play. Has the nerf hurt these people more? Probably but I wouldn't know. Yes, the base nerf greatly hurt the ability to bring the ewar to bear in a gang situation. ;-) Quote: Incidentaly my response wasn't meant as a troll, just trying to inject my point of view in a thread that wasn't yet chock full of whines. I apologize then. I'll do my best to organize my thoughts and post them later on in this thread then. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
royal killer Amarr The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.21 21:14:00 - [21] This is pretty much not different from the NOS nerf, but ECM in my opinion is still to powerfull.... --------------------
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.21 21:33:00 - [22] I thought sensor dampeners added a lot of strategy to combat and made it fun. Now they are useless in comparison to their old stats. I'm very much not in favor of this nerf. I like EWAR more than I do the gank+tank norm.
HippoKing Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.21 21:39:00 - [23] Compeltely fine on non-specialised ships now. Specialised ships (Arazu/Lachesis/Celestis/Maulus/Keres) need a boost though. Not up to previous levels of those ships (simply due to Sensor Boosters being weaker now), but close.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.21 22:18:00 - [24] Quote: Remote Sensor Damps - Did they go too far? Yes. 3 damps right now with range dampening scripts reduce a ship's targeting range by a good bit less than what 2 damps used to do. (And keeping in mind that those 2 damps before would have reduced both range and resolution by that amount.)
L70Rogue	Posted - 2007.12.21 22:23:00 - [25] they are fine, 3 t2 damps can still dampen a ship at least 80% with basic skills.
Dray Caldari Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.21 22:27:00 - [26] Edited by: Dray on 21/12/2007 22:28:08 Afaic specialized damper ships should not have to use scripts but use the mod at pre trinity stats. Problem solved for me.
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.12.21 22:44:00 - [27] Anyone who thinks damps are fine in regards to their performance on specialized ships needs a CAT scan. When a specialized ship with full skills performs LESS than what an unspecialized ship with no rigs would do previously, you know there is something wrong. If you think about it, the whole 100% damp effectiveness that even CCP manages to spew only has around a 20km effective range, give or take a few km. The average battleship now can only be damped to around 21-24km, while the optimal range of damps (which ensures that 100% effectiveness) is only around 45km, from which beyond that they become chance based. This leaves a middle-ground range that is too far for warp scramblers and blasters, while being too close to effectively use long range weapons (except missiles). Meanwhile ECM has been boosted back to i-Win status, and gang warfare is starting to reflect this. The coming months will be interesting (and frustrating) indeed. I should probably just cross-train now. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.21 22:47:00 - [28] Originally by: Spenz Anyone who thinks damps are fine in regards to their performance on specialized ships needs a CAT scan. When a specialized ship with full skills performs LESS than what an unspecialized ship with no rigs would do previously, you know there is something wrong. If you think about it, the whole 100% damp effectiveness that even CCP manages to spew only has around a 20km effective range, give or take a few km. The average battleship now can only be damped to around 21-24km, while the optimal range of damps (which ensures that 100% effectiveness) is only around 45km, from which beyond that they become chance based. This leaves a middle-ground range that is too far for warp scramblers and blasters, while being too close to effectively use long range weapons (except missiles). Meanwhile ECM has been boosted back to i-Win status, and gang warfare is starting to reflect this. The coming months will be interesting (and frustrating) indeed. I should probably just cross-train now. I already trained Caldari Cruiser 5 in the place I was going to finish specializing Liang for the Ishtar. =( So now I'm busy finishing off my ECM related skills before returning to Ishtar training. -Liang -- I give up (Make me say whatever you want!): Price Check: Liang Nuren
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.22 01:20:00 - [29] Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: L70Rogue they are fine, 3 t2 damps can still dampen a ship at least 80% with basic skills. No, you absolutely can't do that. It takes a pilot with high skills in one of the damp specialized ships and with range dampening scripts to be able to reduce a ship's targeting range by 80% or more with 3 damps right now. And it's not like reducing a ship's targeting range by 80% is always of a huge tactical benefit. Say you have a battleship in the enemy gang with 100+ km targeting range. You're in a Lachsis/Arazu/Keres and manage to reduce his targeting range, using all your damps, by 80-82%, but most of the battle happens within 20 km range (as almost all smaller battles do). What exactly have you achieved? You've removed a sniping battleship from the battle instantly. wTS reading comprehension But let's assume I was talking about a long-range battle: 1. A sniping battleship has a hell of a lot more targeting range than 100 km. (Still, you can drop him out of sniping range.) 2. Unlike with ECM (where you can sit at 200+ km) you have to get in close with a dampening ship to take out those snipers. 3. If all you can do in a paper thin, expensive, tech 2 cruiser is take a single battleship's sensors out of the fight (before you die) there is no point to ever bring that ship to a fleet fight and you're a complete idiot if you do.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.22 02:52:00 - [30] Edited by: Grimpak on 22/12/2007 02:55:13 Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: L70Rogue they are fine, 3 t2 damps can still dampen a ship at least 80% with basic skills. No, you absolutely can't do that. It takes a pilot with high skills in one of the damp specialized ships and with range dampening scripts to be able to reduce a ship's targeting range by 80% or more with 3 damps right now. And it's not like reducing a ship's targeting range by 80% is always of a huge tactical benefit. Say you have a battleship in the enemy gang with 100+ km targeting range. You're in a Lachsis/Arazu/Keres and manage to reduce his targeting range, using all your damps, by 80-82%, but most of the battle happens within 20 km range (as almost all smaller battles do). What exactly have you achieved? You've removed a sniping battleship from the battle instantly. considering that that sniper BS only targets at 100km (what sniper BS can only target at 100km?), also considering that ALL your 3 damps hit the ship at that range (damps have optimal of 42km with lvl4 skills), then yes, you just dropped the BS to a range of 20km where all the smaller ships are still on risk of being taken out. the problem here is that no matter how you pull it, you will need 3 modules to partially shut down a single ship. now if you compare it with another Ewar module in a Ewar specialist ship (yes I'm talking about ECM, but don't take this as a whining, more like a comparison), we're talking about a high probability of totally shutting down a BS with a single mod. now tell me how good are dampners now? --- planetary interaction idea!

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