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The Tactics of Eve and the Dangers of the Ignorant

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 23:49:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 23:52:03 Remote Sensor Dampeners or ships doing high speed or ECM and unfortunately they often get very bad changes pushed through with a collective howl of whining. The problem here is that this crowd of F1-8ers never even considers the possibility that Eve combat is more than what they think it is. They dont consider that they might be wrong about their perception of combat and seek to learn the difference. Instead they try to push through changes that will babysit thier poorly formed notion of how combat "should be" ... namely that they should be able to "own" anyone in combat if they have the bigger ship. If they werent so successful with this campaign, I wouldnt have bothered with this post. AGONY has been teaching newbies to PvP for 2 years now. We take the player that barely knows how to fly and put them in 0.0 and take them out hunting. We have shattered the myth that you need millions of SP and billions of isk to PvP so many times I have lost count. Why is it that these new players are able to take on people in PvP in 0.0 with such small ships? Teamwork and tactics. Others have tried many things to kill these fleets and have failed. Smartbombs have been tried and almost universally result in the loss of the battleship with minimal if any loss to the fleet. Yet, at the same time a random group of frigates without training would all be killed in a situation when the trained frigates prevail. The difference between the group that gets wiped and the group that succeeds is tactics and training. It has little to do with skillpoints and far more to do with the skills of the players. Within minutes of being in PVP-BASIC, the newbie learns that PVP is a deeply tactical experience. The class takes nearly six hours of instruction and 50k words of reading. Many students come back again and again to pick up what they missed the last time. The opponents that they fight are not contrived or arranged. In fact, often these opponents read our boards and try to take on and kill the class. Sometimes they manage it but most of the time they get wiped or are forced to withdraw. So what is the F1-8er supposed to do? First of all realize that there are five keys to pvp in eve. 1) Teamwork 2) Know your equipment 3) Train your skills 4) Get in your opponent's head and 5) Employ Creativity. Read on in the next post to learn how these principles are applied. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 23:50:00 - [2] First of all, one of the most important things to understand in Eve is the impact of teamwork. The group that works together as a team will prevail over those that are unorganized and poorly led. The team realizes that no one pilot can do everything and that the combination of specializations makes the gang work. Instead of trying to be one-man armies, they depend on their team mates to perform actions that keep them safe or take out the other guy. The battleships depend on the light and fast ships to get the tackles and the interdictors to bubble in the opponent. The frigs rely on the recons to keep enemy frigates off of them or neutralized. Each person in the gang makes up an integral component in the machine and the structure of the machine and the way the parts work together can be instrumental in a battle. Five well skilled and well fitted pilots can defeat 10 poorly organized pilots. Knowing your equipment is a critical component of pvp in that it allows the pilot to understand the capabilities and limitations of their equipment. The newbie in PVP might get killed in his merlin by the enemy interceptor but the superior pilot in the Merlin would kill the aggressive interceptor. They accomplish this not by skill points or isk but by knowing their equipment and training their skills with that equipment. At the same time, the lone interceptor knows enough to avoid direct contact with a Rapier, Curse, or Vagabond. Knowing your equipment means knowing its limitations and its abilites. Two damps from a maulus can effectively remove that enemy vagabond from the fight. Knowing your skills and training them is one of the major keys to PVP. Learning to manually fly that interceptor to avoid the superior pursing interceptor or knowing how to get that interceptor aggressed are critical. So is knowing the right orbit range, the capabilities of other ships and the synchronization of teamwork. If you dont know how to scan properly you can get the whole gang killed. If you don't know when to leave that fight alone and decline the engagement then you will potentially doom your gang to death. Getting in your opponent's head is the most important part of fleet warfare. If you know what they are going to do then you can plan a response. That response may either counter their attack or perhaps choose to avoid the engagement completely. When you see that Dominix warping into your camp and aggressing when you clearly have usperior force, you should be thinking "why is he doing that" instead of the more instinctive reaction of "woot .. target". When you jump away from the obvious bait, ignoring them, you will know you are successful when they start smacktalking you for not fighting in local. Clearly the Dominix in question knew he had enough to take you all on. The 30 player spike in local as you warp away will confirm that. Getting in your opponent's head will give you more power than any single other PvP skill. If you cant do that then training that extra level in HAC is a waste of time. Finally creativity is the cornerstone of tactical development. If your fleet's idea of tactics is to warp in 20 bs and pound then remove your roles right there. That fleet will inevitably get owned by more creative pilots that out think the "me have big gun" crowd. If you want to catch that nano ship or covops, there are ways to do it. All you need to do is come up with creative ways of catching the ships. When you combine that with the knowledge of your equipment, the skills of your pilots and getting in your opponent's head, you get a successful operation. In conclusion, nerfing the game is not the answer except in circumstances where all of the above fails. Nerfs should be few and far between, carefully considered and the 0.0 players should be an integral part of the process, not mere victims to theoretical numbers, ****ed off carebears or stupid and lazy pilots. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 23:58:00 - [3] ah so this is where they kept the cheese Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
jongalt	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:01:00 - [4] his points are valid but... rells' arrogance knows no bounds. who knew he was so vain? -jg.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:10:00 - [5] Originally by: jongalt his points are valid but... rells' arrogance knows no bounds. who knew he was so vain? -jg. Really? Well you are entitled to your opinion. Even if you are a coward enough to not post it with your main. I personally dont need to hide behind an alt. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
jongalt	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:11:00 - [6] yes, we know rells. because you are vain. -jg.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:13:00 - [7] Rells has officially been forum podded tip my hat to you jongalt Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Rells has officially been forum podded tip my hat to you jongalt Really? By what? One moron with a flippant comment hiding behind an ALT char rather than posting with his main? Excuse me if I'm not mortally wounded. For all we know jongalt is your alt and you are posting to stroke your own ego. At any rate I couldn't care less what either of you (f there are two) think. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Danae Melios Azteca Transportation Unlimited	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:20:00 - [9] He's arrogant because he is good and is on a mission to bring Eve's playerbase up to his level of understanding. That demands ego, but that is hardly a drawback when faced with the forum crowd Originally by: game box Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:20:00 - [10] Rells is right. $5 says the devs dont even read it and we still get a speed/ecm/damp/script nerf and all the good PVPers start leaving or flying fleets of remote repping blasterthrons. Oh and everyone starts naming their dictor "disposable" because clearly CCP doesnt want dictors to live. Alt dictor pilots here we come? Why not just have concord jump in and crush any dictor that drops a bubble anywhere? So far thats the next logical step. "Whoever flies the bigger ship" PVP is just like "Whoever has the higher level" PVP. IT SUCKS - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Tortun Nahme Rells has officially been forum podded tip my hat to you jongalt Really? By what? One moron with a flippant comment hiding behind an ALT char rather than posting with his main? Excuse me if I'm not mortally wounded. For all we know jongalt is your alt and you are posting to stroke your own ego. At any rate I couldn't care less what either of you (f there are two) think. actually no, a forum podding comes from your response, not his, and whether you care or not, you've succeeded in killing your own thread Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:26:00 - [12] Originally by: Tortun Nahme actually no, a forum podding comes from your response, not his, and whether you care or not, you've succeeded in killing your own thread Actually you should grow up or go back to wow. Im not going to play your stupid juvenile game. You remind me of little children running around playing stupid word games. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:27:00 - [13] you realize that every time you respond to me you DO play MY game right? or are you REALLY that dense? Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:35:00 - [14] You have some valid points in this thread, but you got trolled here, strange you didn't notice it
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:39:00 - [15] Edited by: Goumindong on 24/12/2007 00:40:49 Its also possible that some tactics and abilities have been stronger than they ought to be, negating tactics and abilities that ought to have been a counter. Negating counters leads to all tactically sound groups flying roughly the same thing, and then the game really is just who brings the biggest and best ships[assuming similar play] You cant have rock, paper, sciscors without the sciscors. Then you only have paper and suckers. Sometimes changes are warranted[scripts on damps, ECM nerf], sometimes they are not[recent ECM boost, current reduction in damp strength and TD strength], and arguements as to why are they are, or are not, and what they should, are not regelated to one group. There is nothing wrong with an interested advocation of balance in the game. But if you are good, as you say, the whiners will not phase you, because you will find the strategies and tactics that are good and then employ them to beat your enemies. Otherwise, you would just one of the whining hordes who doesnt know how to fight. But you arent one of them, now are you?
Kaalen Caldari Symbiote Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:41:00 - [16] Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:42:00 - [17] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 24/12/2007 00:42:32 I will read this novel later... thanks for using actual paragraphs though, that makes my eyes not bleed Speaking of bleeding... it takes firing 20 rounds from my .44 magnum in rapid succession to make my nose start to bleed And it set off car alarms at the range Fun times Originally by: Tarminic Okay, that's it. You are on the KOS list, and you better pray that I don't have access to a locater agent.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Kaalen Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue. you recognize the irony of whining about that right? Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Kaalen Caldari Symbiote Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:47:00 - [19] Edited by: Kaalen on 24/12/2007 00:48:13 Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Kaalen Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue. you recognize the irony of whining about that right? I fail to see how that could be construed as a whine.
3rdD Dave Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:49:00 - [20] Rells i respect your passion for trying to find new ways to create meaningful engagement but this game is simply paper, scissors, stone game play. Those with a better " fit " wins. IMHO you read too much into it, and if Im honest Agony doesn't really have the best PVP record, and that's not a put down. Im just saying m8. Still, i totally respect your mission to find ways to use the game under the pressure of NEEDLESS NERFS
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:49:00 - [21] I could recommend some courses at the learning anex if you think it might help Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:50:00 - [22] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Kaalen Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue. you recognize the irony of whining about that right? The OP has many valid points, and it's guys like you Tortun Nahme that could really do with listening to that advice Keep on trolling, and losing those ships
Kaalen Caldari Symbiote Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:54:00 - [23] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Kaalen Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue. you recognize the irony of whining about that right? The OP has many valid points, and it's guys like you Tortun Nahme that could really do with listening to that advice Keep on trolling, and losing those ships Thank you Flinx, that REALLY made my day.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:54:00 - [24] actually I've lost alot more than that of course the fact that I don't post my kills makes that a rather moot point funny though, tough luck posted most of their loss mails from me but they didnt show up on battleclinic? Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:59:00 - [25] have to agree that the guy has some points, even considering who he is. and: Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Kaalen Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue. you recognize the irony of whining about that right? The OP has many valid points, and it's guys like you Tortun Nahme that could really do with listening to that advice Keep on trolling, and losing those ships you sir just managed to totally wtfpwn the guy, in a way that he better not post any more until he kills at least a BS solo, unless he wants to someone quote him with that Kboard link bye tortun, safe travels in your Hello Kitty account, which is where you should be tbh --- planetary interaction idea!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:01:00 - [26] it would take more than a little epeen waggling to stop me Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:02:00 - [27] Originally by: Rells We have shattered the myth that you need millions of SP and billions of isk to PvP so many times I have lost count. Why is it that these new players are able to take on people in PvP in 0.0 with such small ships? Teamwork and tactics. He speaks truth. _____________________________ Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Flamewave Contempt.	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:03:00 - [28] Rells has some good points, but I do think the player trend of speed tanking just about everything is getting a bit excessive. While it might be more the fault of flavour of the month flock mentality than actual game balance and mechanics (at one point it was gallente blasterboats online, now it's pretty much vagabonds online), it gets kinda boring nonetheless when so many people fit certain ships nearly the same way just about every time. Takes the spice out of it, really. That might be what irks me the most, sameness. So really, is this "sameness" the fault of game mechanics or flock mentality? And what should the devs do? Originally by: jongalt who knew he was so vain? He probably thinks this song is about him. </song reference> __________
L70Rogue	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Grimpak have to agree that the guy has some points, even considering who he is. and: Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Kaalen Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue. you recognize the irony of whining about that right? The OP has many valid points, and it's guys like you Tortun Nahme that could really do with listening to that advice Keep on trolling, and losing those ships you sir just managed to totally wtfpwn the guy, in a way that he better not post any more until he kills at least a BS solo, unless he wants to someone quote him with that Kboard link bye tortun, safe travels in your Hello Kitty account, which is where you should be tbh I think it's the other way around Tortun pwns you guys.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Kaalen Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue. you recognize the irony of whining about that right? The OP has many valid points, and it's guys like you Tortun Nahme that could really do with listening to that advice Keep on trolling, and losing those ships HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Pwnt, tbh. _____________________________ Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:05:00 - [31] Originally by: Franga Originally by: Rells We have shattered the myth that you need millions of SP and billions of isk to PvP so many times I have lost count. Why is it that these new players are able to take on people in PvP in 0.0 with such small ships? Teamwork and tactics. He speaks truth. Have you ever fought an agony gang?
L70Rogue	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:06:00 - [32] Originally by: Cleric JohnPreston Originally by: Franga Originally by: Rells We have shattered the myth that you need millions of SP and billions of isk to PvP so many times I have lost count. Why is it that these new players are able to take on people in PvP in 0.0 with such small ships? Teamwork and tactics. He speaks truth. Have you ever fought an agony gang? all you need is a smartbombing battlesip...
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:10:00 - [33] For Cleric JohnPreston and his uppety self ... Originally by: Rells myth that you need millions of SP and billions of isk to PvP This, my dear and pathetic alt, was what I was referring to. _____________________________ Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:12:00 - [34] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 24/12/2007 01:13:38 Originally by: Cleric JohnPreston Originally by: Franga Originally by: Rells We have shattered the myth that you need millions of SP and billions of isk to PvP so many times I have lost count. Why is it that these new players are able to take on people in PvP in 0.0 with such small ships? Teamwork and tactics. He speaks truth. Have you ever fought an agony gang? Yes, many times near EC. It wasn't pretty for them, but they fought hard, and they tried some decent tactics. I guess lucky for us, we fought their trainees and not their instructors, as we fought them outnumbered. Having said that, I have genuine admiration for the agony guys and Ivy league. They talk sense, and bring more people into pvp. They shatter the elitist myth that only maxed out pilots can compete That means more combat for everyone, how can you not approve Good luck guys, and merry Christmas to you
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:13:00 - [35] Originally by: Rells In conclusion, nerfing the game is not the answer except in circumstances where all of the above fails. Nerfs should be few and far between, carefully considered and the 0.0 players should be an integral part of the process, not mere victims to theoretical numbers, **ed off carebears or stupid and lazy pilots. The same holds true for boosting btw... - - - Originally by:** CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:13:00 - [36] Originally by: L70Rogue all you need is a smartbombing battlesip... If I had a million ISK for every time I've heard that exact thing said... well let's just say I would be significantly richer. Oh, and I believe that every single disco BS brought out against AGONY to date has been destroyed with few losses. (yes, our classes have been demolished once or twice by a smartbomber... but the ISK killed versus ISK lost is always tilted in our favor)
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:14:00 - [37] you know what will be really funny? if flinx gets a forum warning for breaking the rules trying to one up me Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:17:00 - [38] Originally by: Tortun Nahme you know what will be really funny? if flinx gets a forum warning for breaking the rules trying to one up me _____________________________ Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Bacon Flaps	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:18:00 - [39] This is an ALT post, meh, I cba relogging. Actually most of my forums posts recently have been on this char so it's probably my forum main anyway. The OP seems to be making a few valid points: - Good team work will beat bad or no teamwork - Good tactics will beat bad or no tactics - Good creativity will beat bad or no creativity See what I did there? Rells, your posts are just a huge fart in an already unbreathable atmosphere. You state the obvious several times over, and over, and over, somehow not understanding that everybody already knows this. You continually state that there are good tactics against nano-gangs but you have NEVER actually stated what those tactics are. Besides all of that, you consistently post arrogantly using perjorative terms to refer to pretty much everyone who will read your posts. Calling people 'f1-f8ers' and 'howling whiners' who want to be 'babysat' is probably the worst possible way to generate enthusiasm for your ideas. And the irony in this is that it IS possible to get your ideas accepted by the forum and also CCP. You just need the right tactics and some teamwork :) Overall, people whining about nerfs (and you ARE whining) need to realise that this is the game they play. Everyone is going to get nerfed at some point, the only thing to do is use some tactical clues (see, I did it again!) and treat every nerf as a potential for you to adapt before everyone else. See that...every nerf is an opportunity for YOU to demonstrate to US how AWESOMELY flexible and imaginative YOU are. Instead of, you know, what you're doing now, which to be honest just makes you look a lot less awesome than you clearly think you are.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:18:00 - [40] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 24/12/2007 01:18:53 Originally by: Tortun Nahme you know what will be really funny? if flinx gets a forum warning for breaking the rules trying to one up me Ahh bless, report the link if you like You can always link me up...I got 110 losses...what a loser I am. btw, I wasn't flaming you, but if you want to talk about pvp, then please have some experience Merry xmas x Edit..changed to 110..thats how much I suck
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:21:00 - [41] flinx flinx flinx, you really think I would resort to reporting? I said it would be funny As for experience, well, I'm willing to take you on 1 vs 1 any day if you think im such an easy kill Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar Storm Legion THORN Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:22:00 - [42] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 24/12/2007 01:25:43 OPs right on pretty much everything, unfortunately OP is one of the minority. the Rule of the Internet (tm) has proven to us time and time again that everything is dumbed down to the weakest link. Children use the internet? Make it as child safe as can be. There are other examples, but they are all offensive to subjects of the example, so I won't list them. One glaring example is WoW, they made the game so easy a trained monkey could max out a character and lead a guild to success. That is exactly what makes its so popular, most people aren't curious, they aren't creative, they aren't innovative, they don't WANT to have to use their heads to excel.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:26:00 - [43] Originally by: Tortun Nahme flinx flinx flinx, you really think I would resort to reporting? I said it would be funny As for experience, well, I'm willing to take you on 1 vs 1 any day if you think im such an easy kill If you need to prove something, then yeah, I always like a duel. I traveled 25 jmps to fight, last time someone said this on forum so don't think I wont turn up what ship class you fancy btw? But tbh, we can sort this out via evemail, lets not derail topic that much OT Agony provide an excellent service
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:28:00 - [44] I have nothing to prove but you can find me in Heimatar Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Kaalen Caldari Symbiote Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:30:00 - [45] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon most people aren't curious, they aren't creative, they aren't innovative, they don't WANT to have to use their heads to excel. And a select few of us DO want to use our heads to excel, I find it far more gratifying to know that I beat someone using my intellect and clever tactics and/or skill than because I have the biggest guns and the fattest wallet. That's why I joined EVE, it's not perfect but it is certainly the closest thing we've got. I'd hate to see EVE get dumbed down to the "a-monkey-could-play-it-and-succeed" level that is so common in MMOs.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar Storm Legion THORN Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Kaalen Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon most people aren't curious, they aren't creative, they aren't innovative, they don't WANT to have to use their heads to excel. And a select few of us DO want to use our heads to excel, I find it far more gratifying to know that I beat someone using my intellect and clever tactics and/or skill than because I have the biggest guns and the fattest wallet. That's why I joined EVE, it's not perfect but it is certainly the closest thing we've got. I'd hate to see EVE get dumbed down to the "a-monkey-could-play-it-and-succeed" level that is so common in MMOs. Yea, it's the thing I like most about eve. If a game puts a players skill or a group of players teamwork above equipment or gear it's a game that'll keep me playing for years.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:36:00 - [47] Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: Grimpak have to agree that the guy has some points, even considering who he is. and: Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Kaalen Say what you want about Rells, he and the pilots of AGONY taught me a huge amount during my time with them and he speaks the truth, skill and tactics are by FAR more important in EVE than skillpoints or F1-8. That is the way it should stay, I'd hate to see this game dumbed down due to the sheer volume of the whiners on this forum who don't have a clue. you recognize the irony of whining about that right? The OP has many valid points, and it's guys like you Tortun Nahme that could really do with listening to that advice Keep on trolling, and losing those ships you sir just managed to totally wtfpwn the guy, in a way that he better not post any more until he kills at least a BS solo, unless he wants to someone quote him with that Kboard link bye tortun, safe travels in your Hello Kitty account, which is where you should be tbh I think it's the other way around Tortun pwns you guys. Quite true indeed... --- planetary interaction idea!

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