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Chauneko Sakyou	Posted - 2007.12.25 20:26:00 - [31] you know, I've poked a few of these. I have to say, the vargur does less dps than any of it's T1 equivalents straight out of the box. reason? it doesn't come with enough PG to even fit 4x 1200's let alone the 1400's that I favor. so, my choices are to either fill slots with absurd amounts of +PG modules and not be able to fit a couple gyros/tracking enh/etc or else fit AC's and get in hugging range with everything. hugging range = lots of time getting shot at with no return dps. as for the golem, it's great in theory but, even with defender missiles working as badly as they do, unless you're under 40km range or so it's incredibly easy to cut down on your dps. instead of each missile lost being only 17% dps lost at most, it's now 25%. sure, all of them can tank pretty much anything better than their T1 equivalents, but, I believe almost any T2 ship can do that when compared to T1. as far as that goes though, even a stealth bomber will tank better than its T1 equivalent. imo, that does not justify the T2 tag in and of itself. T2 is supposed to be better. maybe not in requirements, but, performance is supposed to be better. so far all I have seen these ships do is increase the length of combat really. sure they allow us to fit a few odd highs, but, the paladin and kronos are the only ones who really out-dps their T1 cousins. even then though, I only fly a kronos for looting. mayhaps that was what ccp was after? so many players whining for a good salvage ship, ccp decided to give it to us? tractor bonuses, good number of highs, decent cargo bay, lots of cap to MWD around for those 150km kills. sounds like what we really got was a new class of salvage ships. O.o ----------------------------------------------------------------
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar Storm Legion THORN Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.25 20:31:00 - [32] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 25/12/2007 20:35:28 Marauders are brand new, give it time for the price to drop. I doubt they'll stay 800 mil..
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.12.25 20:31:00 - [33] Higher resists, better damage output (Kronos=), twice as many cap charges, spare highslots, faster, better for overloading weapons, nice web bonus (yeah because that's 'pvE'..) T2 Wang? For sure, but then most T2 stuff is... Merry Christmas. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Nightsheir	Posted - 2007.12.25 20:46:00 - [34] The first things that come into mind are usualy right. "There is something teribly wrong with marauders"
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.25 21:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Raven DeBlade Edited by: Raven DeBlade on 25/12/2007 16:46:29 Originally by: FraXy Edited by: FraXy on 25/12/2007 16:02:26 Originally by: Raven DeBlade Marauders are a joke, who came up with the idea for these ships?! Skill req are high, they are very expensive AND they are plain and utter crap. i can do most things better with other ships for alot less cost. fitting them are a pain even with 75M+ Skill points. So what IS THE POINT with them?! Don`t fly them and stfu? Or use your creativity with the knowledge you are getting that they are not meant to be solopwnmobiles and stfu? Third alternative is to hop in a Geddon or Active-tanked Megathron and realise that Marauders are jokingly easy to fit and stfu? Conclusion: Stop whining, stfu and adapt. Edit: Merry Christmas btw. stfu thats all you have to say... why am i not surprised at all... Either say whats so GOOD with them, or BAD or you follow your own "intelligent" advice... Hes right,these ships arent bad for what they are designed for and if you dont like doing what their designed for then dont use them. Whining about them is like whining about shuttles having the inability to fight. Signature removed. Contains no Eve content. Navigator ([email protected])
Skeiron	Posted - 2007.12.25 21:34:00 - [36] Originally by: goodby4u Hes right,these ships arent bad for what they are designed for and if you dont like doing what their designed for then dont use them. Whining about them is like whining about shuttles having the inability to fight. The 100% damage bonus + less weapons was to reduce ammo need and free up slots for other modules (tractor beam). However, the Vargur has not enough pg to fit their long range high damage weapons, so it has to be fit with the autocannons which deal more dps, but over a shorter range and need WAY more ammo. I do not see how this ship was meant to function, but it doesn't do artillery which is the primary weapon for ratters / mission runners, which leaves autocannons, but it has no sensor strength to pvp. Call me crazy but this ship has either no design focus, or it doesn't do what it's desinged for. ------------------------- When EvE Online meets Real Life
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.25 21:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Skeiron Call me crazy but this ship has either no design focus, or it doesn't do what it's desinged for. I bet the design focus was to make a time & ISK sink... They're very good at that. (you'd think that I'd use them but no, I have about 3m SP invested in skills to fly a passive Drake and run pretty much every L4 with it) Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Felony Assualt The Diabolic Abstraction	Posted - 2007.12.25 22:38:00 - [38] To the op, your an idiot!
Steyr Daghan thx for all the fish Minuit.	Posted - 2007.12.25 22:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Felony Assualt To the op, your an idiot! /signed
Hans Angry Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii	Posted - 2007.12.25 23:26:00 - [40] Originally by: Raven DeBlade Marauders are a joke, who came up with the idea for these ships?! Skill req are high, they are very expensive AND they are plain and utter crap. i can do most things better with other ships for alot less cost. fitting them are a pain even with 75M+ Skill points. So what IS THE POINT with them?! in the famous words of Mr. T, quit yo jibba jabba, if you dont like the ship, dont fly it, dont ***** about it Sig removed, lacks Eve-related content. And it was ten times too big :p If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Benedic The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.12.26 00:20:00 - [41] They are crap, don't fly them, and blow up people that do. Then feast on their delicious tears on these forums.
Helen Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.26 00:49:00 - [42] Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou as for the golem, it's great in theory but, even with defender missiles working as badly as they do, unless you're under 40km range or so it's incredibly easy to cut down on your dps. instead of each missile lost being only 17% dps lost at most, it's now 25%. Paging Akita T, Akita T to the thread please! Meet me behind the bushes at midnight! - Cortes
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.12.26 01:02:00 - [43] Originally by: Helen Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou as for the golem, it's great in theory but, even with defender missiles working as badly as they do, unless you're under 40km range or so it's incredibly easy to cut down on your dps. instead of each missile lost being only 17% dps lost at most, it's now 25%. Paging Akita T, Akita T to the thread please! LOL. Helen- I just read that and heard it in my head as Cypress hill's 'Dr. Greenthumb'- "Dr. Greenthumb, paging Dr. Greenthumb!..." lol. Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
Helen Eve Innovative Technologies	Posted - 2007.12.26 01:04:00 - [44] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Helen Originally by: Chauneko Sakyou as for the golem, it's great in theory but, even with defender missiles working as badly as they do, unless you're under 40km range or so it's incredibly easy to cut down on your dps. instead of each missile lost being only 17% dps lost at most, it's now 25%. Paging Akita T, Akita T to the thread please! LOL. Helen- I just read that and heard it in my head as Cypress hill's 'Dr. Greenthumb'- "Dr. Greenthumb, paging Dr. Greenthumb!..." lol. omg u too Meet me behind the bushes at midnight! - Cortes
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.26 01:11:00 - [45] Originally by: Skeiron Originally by: goodby4u Hes right,these ships arent bad for what they are designed for and if you dont like doing what their designed for then dont use them. Whining about them is like whining about shuttles having the inability to fight. The 100% damage bonus + less weapons was to reduce ammo need and free up slots for other modules (tractor beam). However, the Vargur has not enough pg to fit their long range high damage weapons, so it has to be fit with the autocannons which deal more dps, but over a shorter range and need WAY more ammo. I do not see how this ship was meant to function, but it doesn't do artillery which is the primary weapon for ratters / mission runners, which leaves autocannons, but it has no sensor strength to pvp. Call me crazy but this ship has either no design focus, or it doesn't do what it's desinged for. The falloff bonus points to giving the acs the range to deal extreme ranges,plus since its a shield tank you can add RCUs where needed. Signature removed. Contains no Eve content. Navigator ([email protected])
Karan Kaldarian Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.12.26 02:17:00 - [46] Edited by: Karan Kaldarian on 26/12/2007 02:18:14 Mbahà..I don¦t know à..I do not know . Golem seems to be my next try , as I fly Caldarià..but : It seems something that can do everythink on the paper but can¦t on the field .It¦s only a first impression so keep it easy. 1 - I do not feel confident that defender missiles won¦t have an impact on your damage 2 - 3 slot for salvaging and tracktor beams aren¦t enough for great numbers of cans, and combined with few low slots this means that velocity of Golem will not be so high. 3 - Golem has a good cargo bay , but , again , not enough for salvaging and looting the whole missions ( AE,EA ). I mean that if you only salvage it¦s ok , but in this case you do not need 1225 m3 of cargo and if you loot everything , this space will not save you from a second trip ( and a third in some cases) . Maybe it is intended for all salvaging and some looting , (only valuable stuff). So In case I¦m going to recover everything from my mission , I think I¦ll go with Rattle , Raven , Nighthawk , Drake, and salvaging/looting with a whole different ship in a second round : better if a 8 high slot , 8 low slot ship and a little drone bay for the structures while looting. Sure think is that Golem is not a love at first sight as it was for my Rattle . But maybe I am wrong......
DigitalCommunist Obsidian Core	Posted - 2007.12.26 02:44:00 - [47] The point of Marauders, more than anything, is to fill a missing gap with the tech 2 lineup without introducing something that is going to utterly negate the 'workhorse' status of tech 1 Battleships in EVE. If you're disappointed with what we got, its because you expected either more damage or more stupid gimmicks. And considering what they did with Black Ops... that is saying a lot. _______________________________ Complex Fullerene Shards; why God? :\|
Skeiron	Posted - 2007.12.26 02:47:00 - [48] Originally by: goodby4u The falloff bonus points to giving the acs the range to deal extreme ranges,plus since its a shield tank you can add RCUs where needed. True, but this will mean less lowslots for gyrostabs etc., which means that the Tempest and also the Mael will outperform it rangewise and might be a tie for dps on medium range. The only thing the Vargur will outperform them will be in close range, where BS rats will generally not be and where frigs and cruisers will still be hard to track even with AC's. If you factor in drones and the launchers on the Tempest, the Vergur doesn't excell at anything compared to the Tempest and Mael in PvE. PVP in it is just crazy for it's price. ------------------------- When EvE Online meets Real Life
Naomi Wildfire Amarr Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2007.12.26 02:56:00 - [49] I have to agree to everyone except the OP. Those ship are nice for what they are made for. 100% DPS, Tackle/Salvage and enough cargo to keep everything in your bay + ammo. A little less whine and more brain please. I bet you would get better answers or its just the wrong thing to post.
Skeiron	Posted - 2007.12.26 03:08:00 - [50] Originally by: DigitalCommunist The point of Marauders, more than anything, is to fill a missing gap with the tech 2 lineup without introducing something that is going to utterly negate the 'workhorse' status of tech 1 Battleships in EVE. If you're disappointed with what we got, its because you expected either more damage or more stupid gimmicks. And considering what they did with Black Ops... that is saying a lot. Even when not expecting more damage, the Vargur is just impossible to fit without RCUs or grid rigs. Considering the time needed to train them they are pretty much a waste of time and isk, getting a Tempest for 1/10th of the price is more effective at everything but the tank. I do not know the stats of the other marauders by heart but the Golem will have significantly less dps when up against defenders than the Raven. Expecting more damage might have been a little abitious, but atm we get nothing but tank. ------------------------- When EvE Online meets Real Life
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2007.12.26 03:33:00 - [51] Originally by: Karan Kaldarian Edited by: Karan Kaldarian on 26/12/2007 02:18:14 Mbahà..I don¦t know à..I do not know . Golem seems to be my next try , as I fly Caldarià..but : It seems something that can do everythink on the paper but can¦t on the field .It¦s only a first impression so keep it easy. 1 - I do not feel confident that defender missiles won¦t have an impact on your damage 2 - 3 slot for salvaging and tracktor beams aren¦t enough for great numbers of cans, and combined with few low slots this means that velocity of Golem will not be so high. 3 - Golem has a good cargo bay , but , again , not enough for salvaging and looting the whole missions ( AE,EA ). I mean that if you only salvage it¦s ok , but in this case you do not need 1225 m3 of cargo and if you loot everything , this space will not save you from a second trip ( and a third in some cases) . Maybe it is intended for all salvaging and some looting , (only valuable stuff). So In case I¦m going to recover everything from my mission , I think I¦ll go with Rattle , Raven , Nighthawk , Drake, and salvaging/looting with a whole different ship in a second round : better if a 8 high slot , 8 low slot ship and a little drone bay for the structures while looting. Sure think is that Golem is not a love at first sight as it was for my Rattle . But maybe I am wrong...... 1) Look up any Eve info database like eveinfo.com, it is called defender shot missile chance and it is a percentage. So if an enemy has 50% defender missile shot chance then it will shoot down 50% of your missiles. So a raven has 6 shots and loses 3 which is 50% of damage and a Golem will have 4 shots and lose 2 for guess what the same 50% damage lost. 2) 3 tractor beams aren't enough? Have you tried looting and salvaging at the same time as killing spawns? Double range and speed of tractor beams make it quite easy to loot without running back and getting a looter/salvager (which takes time which means losing money) 3) Loot the good stuff only then. Kinda like you only salvage BS and maybe cruisers, only pick up the good loot. Mission runners should be very knowledgeable at which loot is good or else you are a sucky mission runner. The Golem is a very good mission running ship. For a missile spammer, DPS doesn't matter, what matters is how many volleys it takes to take down a enemy ship. The Golem has more alpha strike than the CNR in this regard. So like if a CNR takes 3 volleys to kill a BC with a 7sec rof and a Golem takes 2 volleys with a 9.5sec rof, then the Golem kills the unit in 19s while the CNR takes 21s. It also uses a lot less ammo which makes using faction ammo tempting which means another 15% alpha strike onto the Golem. A lot of mission runners are already using pimped out faction ships so yeah to you guys of course a T2 ship is junk. Between the Raven and a Golem, you should fly the Golem hands down. Between CNR and Golem, I'd go for Golem but if you don't have the skills, CNR works like a charm. For PvP, it is hard to justify using a Marauder. I can compare and see that the Vargur will be better than a Maelstrom at PvP but for 700-800M over a fully insurance T1 BS and being a ewar/primary magnet, mmmmm nahhhh. If the Marauders had the grid to fit Neuts/Nos/SBs in those last high slots then they'd be a lot better for PvP. It's nice to have a large cargo for bubbles and ammo for PvP, but there are so many other cheaper ways to do anything a Marauder can do in PvP that Marauders will forever be the mission runner ship and the PvP ship of the crazy.
Karan Kaldarian Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.12.26 06:32:00 - [52] Originally by: Vaal Erit 1) Look up any Eve info database like eveinfo.com, it is called defender shot missile chance and it is a percentage. So if an enemy has 50% defender missile shot chance then it will shoot down 50% of your missiles. So a raven has 6 shots and loses 3 which is 50% of damage and a Golem will have 4 shots and lose 2 for guess what the same 50% damage lost. 2) 3 tractor beams aren't enough? Have you tried looting and salvaging at the same time as killing spawns? Double range and speed of tractor beams make it quite easy to loot without running back and getting a looter/salvager (which takes time which means losing money) 3) Loot the good stuff only then. Kinda like you only salvage BS and maybe cruisers, only pick up the good loot. Mission runners should be very knowledgeable at which loot is good or else you are a sucky mission runner. The Golem is a very good mission running ship. For a missile spammer, DPS doesn't matter, what matters is how many volleys it takes to take down a enemy ship. The Golem has more alpha strike than the CNR in this regard. So like if a CNR takes 3 volleys to kill a BC with a 7sec rof and a Golem takes 2 volleys with a 9.5sec rof, then the Golem kills the unit in 19s while the CNR takes 21s. It also uses a lot less ammo which makes using faction ammo tempting which means another 15% alpha strike onto the Golem. A lot of mission runners are already using pimped out faction ships so yeah to you guys of course a T2 ship is junk. Between the Raven and a Golem, you should fly the Golem hands down. Between CNR and Golem, I'd go for Golem but if you don't have the skills, CNR works like a charm. For PvP, it is hard to justify using a Marauder. I can compare and see that the Vargur will be better than a Maelstrom at PvP but for 700-800M over a fully insurance T1 BS and being a ewar/primary magnet, mmmmm nahhhh. If the Marauders had the grid to fit Neuts/Nos/SBs in those last high slots then they'd be a lot better for PvP. It's nice to have a large cargo for bubbles and ammo for PvP, but there are so many other cheaper ways to do anything a Marauder can do in PvP that Marauders will forever be the mission runner ship and the PvP ship of the crazy. 2) Here we are . Three tractor beams could be enough ....but , tell me , you do salvaging withàà cruise launchers? Do you leave the salvaging ? ...if you leave the salvaging I should think you are one of those sucky mission runners. Golem has 7 hislot , you can divide the remaining three high slot at your wish but any combination of salvagers/tbeams could (will) leave you with a bottle neck . àand yes at the moment there are no level 4 mission really hard to drain your attention 100% ( maybe AE bonus room) and it would be possible to salvage during mission . p.s. and several mission runners do salvaging AND looting.
Steel Dragon Caldari SWAT Spacial Weapons And Tactics	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:56:00 - [53] Having just returned to EvE (wanted to see the new content) I am very disappointed in the marauders. I am a mission runner and while the idea of a ship that fights while salvaging is a nice idea CCP was a long way off on this one. I personally use a Raven or Cerb depending on mission. Once clear I return in a destroyer kitted with 3 tractors rest salvagers this way I can loot fast pull in 3 cans and rotate my salvagers (all on 1 can makes for only 1 attempt) kick in the AB for long range cans and I kill just as fast ( if not faster) than a gollum can and still out loot it. As for the ECM weakness that was just to insure you don't want to PvP in it as your already going to be a MT so lets make it easier to jam them out of the fight. In the gollum's case they can leave the ecm weakness but give it 6 launchers. For a gollum fit FoF missiles and who cares if your jammed. These ships are made for rich players with nothing else to spend there money on. For 800m I will go get a navy issue raven and keep rocking out my lvl 4's Let the slam fest begin
Imaos	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:50:00 - [54] Originally by: Skeiron Even when not expecting more damage, the Vargur is just impossible to fit without RCUs or grid rigs. Considering the time needed to train them they are pretty much a waste of time and isk, getting a Tempest for 1/10th of the price is more effective at everything but the tank. I do not know the stats of the other marauders by heart but the Golem will have significantly less dps when up against defenders than the Raven. Expecting more damage might have been a little abitious, but atm we get nothing but tank. 1) I really don't see what the grid problem is when fitting them. Use the biggest ACs and you get all the range you need and can fit a MWD. I run out of cpu the way I would fit it, but not pg. (No grid rigs and no PDU/RCU, 3 gyros, dcuII). 2) As said defenders are chance based and reduce the damage from every missile ship by the same percentage. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
E Vile Fifth Exiled Legion SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:52:00 - [55] Originally by: Segmentor Has anyone tried to field a gang of 3-4 remote repping marauders? Do full BS dmg and use the 4 free slots for repote reps/offline smartbombs as heatsinks. BINGO! We have a winner! Some don't realize how much of an advantage having those high slots free are.
Imaos	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:00:00 - [56] Originally by: Karan Kaldarian 2) Here we are . Three tractor beams could be enough ....but , tell me , you do salvaging withàà cruise launchers? Do you leave the salvaging ? ...if you leave the salvaging I should think you are one of those sucky mission runners. Golem has 7 hislot , you can divide the remaining three high slot at your wish but any combination of salvagers/tbeams could (will) leave you with a bottle neck . àand yes at the moment there are no level 4 mission really hard to drain your attention 100% ( maybe AE bonus room) and it would be possible to salvage during mission . p.s. and several mission runners do salvaging AND looting. I really don't see a really big bottleneck. If your salvaging skill is high enough 2 tractors and a salvager is enough. Depending on the speed the ships die with you might get away with 1/1. And the argument with not enough crago space: You might want to jettison cap charges and pull the can with a tractor behind you. Imaos ------------------------------------------ Originally by: NoNah My friend, this is EVE, as it's a space oriented game, they couldn't have trolls. We have Caldari.
Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Kraftwerk.	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:20:00 - [57] Originally by: E Vile Originally by: Segmentor Has anyone tried to field a gang of 3-4 remote repping marauders? Do full BS dmg and use the 4 free slots for repote reps/offline smartbombs as heatsinks. BINGO! We have a winner! Some don't realize how much of an advantage having those high slots free are. Sensor strength?? Marauders are way too easy to jamm to be a reliable source of remote repping. If you check their stats you can clearly see that CCP tried everything to avoid the creation of a new pwnage class. Vargur: In my eyes the badest of the lot, but its minmatar, what can you expect? Autocannons just dont cut it when you come out 80km from the npc Battleships or you have BS trying to orbit you at 40-50km (yeah falloff, but that reduces your dps to laughable ammounts...). Golem: Why dont fly a Caldari Navy Raven instead? More DPS and now you have to use cruise missles anyway, so you will definitly prefer the extra launcher instead of a target painter bonus. Kronos: Actually a slight improvement over the Megathron, a bit more dps from guns, a lot less from drones. But with the mixture of the tanking bonus and damage of a hyperion and the tracking stuff of a megathron it has actually a real use in eve. Paladin: Nice ship, kind of an abaddon with less cap usage. Public Noobism
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:32:00 - [58] Originally by: Skeiron Originally by: goodby4u The falloff bonus points to giving the acs the range to deal extreme ranges,plus since its a shield tank you can add RCUs where needed. True, but this will mean less lowslots for gyrostabs etc., which means that the Tempest and also the Mael will outperform it rangewise and might be a tie for dps on medium range. The only thing the Vargur will outperform them will be in close range, where BS rats will generally not be and where frigs and cruisers will still be hard to track even with AC's. If you factor in drones and the launchers on the Tempest, the Vergur doesn't excell at anything compared to the Tempest and Mael in PvE. PVP in it is just crazy for it's price. It has 4 free highs with a tractorbeam bonus...It has 5 lows if i remember correctly which means 2 free lows for reactor controls and 3x gyros(most people dont pack more then 3)...Not to mention the ability to use acs at longer ranges. Signature removed. Contains no Eve content. Navigator ([email protected])
hellwarrior Caldari Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:36:00 - [59] :]
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.26 11:04:00 - [60] Uh oh, are ppl still talking about defenders+Golem? /bangs head on wall Raven m8, you're out of the loop

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