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Have you all forgotten the #1 rule of EVE? Adapt.

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Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:16:00 - [1] Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes. That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them.
Dirk Magnum FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:19:00 - [2] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/12/2007 08:22:22 With all due respect to the current lineup of devs, the game that was originally envisioned was a sandbox, unbound by the conventional classing or leveling of other MMO's. This concept, the one that made us "feel uncomfortable and slightly angry" (or whatever the exact words of that wise quote were) when we logged in is what we came to love. Homogenization is killing this vision. To a large extent of course this original vision still rings true in the game. Those of us taking time out of our day to partake in that most likely useless act that is forum whining/etc don't want to see inroads made against that by Devs whose vision apparently deviates from the original. It's our opinion that the sandbox is best, so we are stating it whenever the need arises, regardless of what the prevailing mood of the Devs is.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:28:00 - [3] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/12/2007 08:27:07 With all due respect to the current lineup of devs, the game that was originally envisioned was a sandbox, unbound by the conventional classing or leveling of other MMO's. This concept, the one that made us "feel uncomfortable and slightly angry" (or whatever the exact words of that wise quote were) when we logged in is what we came to love. Homogenization is killing this vision. To a large extent of course this original vision still rings true in the game. Those of us taking time out of our day to partake in that most likely useless act that is forum whining/etc don't want to see inroads made against that by Devs whose vision apparently deviates from the original. It's our opinion that the sandbox is best, so we are stating it whenever the need arises, regardless of what the prevailing mood of the Devs actually is. We know that as a minority of the overall subscriber base, combined with the fact that we don't actually work for CCP, what we say here may well amount to zip all in regards to the decisions they make. But hey, they gave us this forum to voice our opinion so we are going to make use of it. Yep.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:35:00 - [4] Edited by: Hannobaal on 26/12/2007 08:35:16 Originally by: Zeknichov Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes. That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them. I say let the competent devs that used to shape this game shape it. I used to have great faith in CCP to shape and balance this game and make great, intelligent changes. Then we got Zulupark that spews out statements you expect from poorly informed forum trolls, not from devs.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:37:00 - [5] wow, you people make me feel sad... just leave eve is a sandbox. you know what wait let me issue an example... how is this? Quote: With all due respect to the current lineup of devs, the game that was originally envisioned was a sandbox, unbound by the conventional classing or leveling of other MMO's. This concept, the one that made us "feel uncomfortable and slightly angry" (or whatever the exact words of that wise quote were) when we logged in is what we came to love. Homogenization is killing this vision. different form what moo said once they boosted conchord? You sound just liek the guy who said that not letting anyone shot someone else was destorying the sandbox blah blah blah. Is your perfect version of eve a game with jsut stronger and stronger ships that you can fit to do what YOU want? that's not how the universe works. different tech does different things. this game would be SOOOOOOOOOO boring with only bigger and bigger ships. I love having new ship classes, which by the way was basicly what happen with interdictors. they took out interdictors and replaces them with a new class of ship. IT"S AN MMORPG IT HAS CLASSES. it has from day one it's called the sand you moron. you know some might say "go back to WoW" but I think GO BACK TO 2ND LIFE would be appropriate in this situation. adapt or DIE. I for one love that all the ships don't fit nos anymore. or damps. it's like you actully don't know what our fighting anymore! before you knew what you were fighting. basicly tech 2 ships are better in a field however you are better at this field but only but giving away your role in combat. thus tech 1 ships are still useful. a rifter should go faster than a tech 2 interdictor. OMG. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/12/2007 08:28:32 With all due respect to the current lineup of devs, the game that was originally envisioned was a sandbox, unbound by the conventional classing or leveling of other MMO's. This concept, the one that made us "feel uncomfortable and slightly angry" (or whatever the exact words of that wise quote were) when we logged in is what we came to love. Homogenization is killing this vision. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but IMHO that while concept of harsh unforgiving place was thrown away to the garbage with all different methods of resource gathering metagaming. It may still be a harsh place.... for those who can't afford/don't want to metagame their way to unlimited ISK.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 26/12/2007 08:35:16 Originally by: Zeknichov Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes. That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them. I say let the competent devs that used to shape this game shape it. I used to have great faith in CCP to shape and balance this game and make great, intelligent changes. Then we got Zulupark that spews out statements you expect from poorly informed forum trolls, not from devs. IT"S NOT ZULUPARK! ZULUPARK IS THE NEW PAPER MAN! wow hey while were at it want to sign this paper to stop women suffrage? Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:40:00 - [8] Originally by: MotherMoon IT"S NOT ZULUPARK! ZULUPARK IS THE NEW PAPER MAN! And his job is what? To make clueless statements about Eve's game mechanics?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:41:00 - [9] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MotherMoon IT"S NOT ZULUPARK! ZULUPARK IS THE NEW PAPER MAN! And his job is what? To make clueless statements about Eve's game mechanics? no his job is to take what the team desides on and tell us what CCP is going to do. DO you really believe that he is single handily controlling the direction of the game? do you know how CCP works on EvE? Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Dirk Magnum FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:42:00 - [10] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/12/2007 08:42:51 Originally by: MotherMoon early part of post I wouldn't call rank incompetence of the in-game police force disruptive of the sandbox. High sec was meant to be safer, if not totally safe. It was neither safer nor safe when the guardians of that area could be tanked by players, which was clearly not in line with the idea of high sec. I'm sure CCP would have boosted Concord before m0o was tanking them had they known such tanking would be possible.
Lupra Nermona	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Zeknichov Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes. That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them. /signed __ ...vote for Zulupark... Let the dinosaurier die!
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:46:00 - [12] I don't like the term sandbox to describe MMOGs. I always attribute sandbox to restrictions and EVE is the least restrictive of any MMOG. I also do not support the changes the devs are making but I understand them. They wish to increase their player base. Players do not enjoy losing their time. A death is a loss of time. I had this character the day EVE came out. I remember when losing a cruiser meant something. The money supply has increased exponentially since then but the price level does not adjust in the EVE economy to compensate for the amount of money in the economy. With changes to low-sec, gate camping, instas and concord safety has increased. Due to this the real isk that people lose when they are killed is substantially lower than back in 2003 although the nominal is the same. Not only that people who do not wish to engage in PvP are finding it much easier to avoid PvP. This increases player base. The devs do not wish to correct the economic problems of EVE because they want to increase their player base. The vast majority of players want WoW PvP where they can die and lose no investment of time at all. This is what I wish to avoid because the EVE I envisioned at back in 2003 was an EVE where I as a player could potentially "KILL" another player by ruining him financially. It is becoming much harder to do so now. Alliances can fight for months and although they will lose isk the amount of isk they lose can easily be replaced. All they lose of value is land and players that seek safety. The devs are making the wrong changes but the changes the whiners want are just as bad if not worse. So I do what I always do, adapt to the changes or quit the game and wait for changes that I like then resubscribe.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/12/2007 08:42:51 Originally by: MotherMoon early part of post I wouldn't call rank incompetence of the in-game police force disruptive of the sandbox. High sec was meant to be safer, if not totally safe. It was neither safer nor safe when the guardians of that area could be tanked by players, which was clearly not in line with the idea of high sec. I'm sure CCP would have boosted Concord before m0o was tanking them had they known such tanking would be possible. but that logic is why they are nerfing speed on interdictors because they didn't know they would be able to go 13km/s and basicly never be killed ever. I for one believe going 13km is fine as long as you can't do any damage, or not much. the interdictor could go that fast and still have full 100% effect. not like it matters a good pilot will still just go 6000m/s and have a WCS or 2 on dorp and warp out to safe spot near by and come back in. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:49:00 - [14] paying customers are like shareholders and eventhough ccp has the 51% of the corp votes giving it veto, it won't do something that will permanently mess up the player base what you are missing though is that sometimes ccp ****s up about certain things and if not properly informed of their mistakes will not correct them. and in many cases these cases that state where ccp are wrong, the ones that are well argumented and prooved with sufficient amounts of data, are done such to help ccp make the game better, not the other way around. as for the narrowminded evolution/random coincidence perspective; take your douglas adams, his 42, and the rest of his entertaining and humerous but i dare say narrowminded and oftentimes stupifying rubbish, and go sell crazy somewhere else happy new year to everyone btw.
Riethe	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Zeknichov I don't like the term sandbox to describe MMOGs. I always attribute sandbox to restrictions and EVE is the least restrictive of any MMOG. Well then you're dumb and that doesn't make sense. Think about it like this: In game terms, a SANDBOX game refers to a game that is not restrictive. As in, if you were in a sandbox, you can do anything you want, build castles, bury little children, play army man, ANYTHING. I don't know how you can think that refers to restrictions at all, unless you have like, "Playground games" and "sandbox games," so like, there's no monkeybars in eve, or what? You're confused, there are tons of monkeybars in eve.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:52:00 - [16] Originally by: Zeknichov I don't like the term sandbox to describe MMOGs. I always attribute sandbox to restrictions and EVE is the least restrictive of any MMOG. I also do not support the changes the devs are making but I understand them. They wish to increase their player base. Players do not enjoy losing their time. A death is a loss of time. I had this character the day EVE came out. I remember when losing a cruiser meant something. The money supply has increased exponentially since then but the price level does not adjust in the EVE economy to compensate for the amount of money in the economy. With changes to low-sec, gate camping, instas and concord safety has increased. Due to this the real isk that people lose when they are killed is substantially lower than back in 2003 although the nominal is the same. Not only that people who do not wish to engage in PvP are finding it much easier to avoid PvP. This increases player base. The devs do not wish to correct the economic problems of EVE because they want to increase their player base. The vast majority of players want WoW PvP where they can die and lose no investment of time at all. This is what I wish to avoid because the EVE I envisioned at back in 2003 was an EVE where I as a player could potentially "KILL" another player by ruining him financially. It is becoming much harder to do so now. Alliances can fight for months and although they will lose isk the amount of isk they lose can easily be replaced. All they lose of value is land and players that seek safety. The devs are making the wrong changes but the changes the whiners want are just as bad if not worse. So I do what I always do, adapt to the changes or quit the game and wait for changes that I like then resubscribe. \\ wait what change is making it easier to PvP? and I agree with you after months of fighting the other allaince will still have more than ennough money. I think eve is working towards making this not as easy by doing thinds like possible removing the isk cap on minerals. making ships would be more expensive. losing one in 0.0 would mean more. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:56:00 - [17] Edited by: Zeknichov on 26/12/2007 08:56:21 Originally by: Riethe Originally by: Zeknichov I don't like the term sandbox to describe MMOGs. I always attribute sandbox to restrictions and EVE is the least restrictive of any MMOG. Well then you're dumb and that doesn't make sense. Think about it like this: In game terms, a SANDBOX game refers to a game that is not restrictive. As in, if you were in a sandbox, you can do anything you want, build castles, bury little children, play army man, ANYTHING. I don't know how you can think that refers to restrictions at all, unless you have like, "Playground games" and "sandbox games," so like, there's no monkeybars in eve, or what? You're confused, there are tons of monkeybars in eve. In computer science sandbox refers to a restrictive environment. In the sandbox you can do whatever you want? I usually look at it in terms of the sand is held in by restrictive walls and sandboxes are usually small controlled environments.
Riethe	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:59:00 - [18] Edited by: Riethe on 26/12/2007 09:00:49 Everyone cover your eyes, incoming wikipedia: Originally by: Wikipedia A sandbox game (or a video game with an optional sandbox mode) is a video game with an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay, or a mode of gameplay within a game that is more often played in a goal-directed manner. The sandbox analogy is used to describe this style of gaming because, as with a physical sandbox, the user is simply allowed to do what he or she wishes (with the available game elements and within the limitations of the game engineù the metaphoric toys within, and boundaries of, the sandbox). Sandbox (Video Game) edit: Just wanted to mention that your definition, in that case, is correct, but for this context, it does not mean what you think it does.
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Riethe Edited by: Riethe on 26/12/2007 08:59:09 Everyone cover your eyes, incoming wikipedia: Originally by: Wikipedia A sandbox game (or a video game with an optional sandbox mode) is a video game with an open-ended and non-linear style of gameplay, or a mode of gameplay within a game that is more often played in a goal-directed manner. The sandbox analogy is used to describe this style of gaming because, as with a physical sandbox, the user is simply allowed to do what he or she wishes (with the available game elements and within the limitations of the game engineù the metaphoric toys within, and boundaries of, the sandbox). Sandbox (Video Game) Oh I know the definition I just don't like the term being used because more or less in anything other then MMOG descriptions sandboxes refer to restrictive environments.
Riethe	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Zeknichov Oh I know the definition I just don't like the term being used because more or less in anything other then MMOG descriptions sandboxes refer to restrictive environments. Okay well just because you don't "like" something, doesn't mean that it's not the proper usage of the term in what we're discussing. You can't just go around making things up to suit your needs. I guess though if you knew that, you wouldn't make a post demanding everyone to stop complaining about concerns that are pretty well justified.
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:07:00 - [21] Hmm? I just stated I didn't like the term. I never said don't use it. However if my train of thought ever caught on then the term would cease to be used. That is after all how the term was first developed. Someone used it to describe an open ended environment and it caught on.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:26:00 - [22] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MotherMoon IT"S NOT ZULUPARK! ZULUPARK IS THE NEW PAPER MAN! And his job is what? To make clueless statements about Eve's game mechanics? no his job is to take what the team desides on and tell us what CCP is going to do. DO you really believe that he is single handily controlling the direction of the game? do you know how CCP works on EvE? If so, the entire team has gotten all clueless all of a sudden, which I find hard to believe considering what I've seen before he came on the scene. I don't believe he is behind all current changes, but it does seem that any change that I find difficult to understand seems to be associated with him in some way.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MotherMoon IT"S NOT ZULUPARK! ZULUPARK IS THE NEW PAPER MAN! And his job is what? To make clueless statements about Eve's game mechanics? no his job is to take what the team desides on and tell us what CCP is going to do. DO you really believe that he is single handily controlling the direction of the game? do you know how CCP works on EvE? If so, the entire team has gotten all clueless all of a sudden, which I find hard to believe considering what I've seen before he came on the scene. I don't believe he is behind all current changes, but it does seem that any change that I find difficult to understand seems to be associated with him in some way. maybe because all changes are associated with the person put in chrage of the team that does it? every patch someone says EvE is becoming SWG I'm sorry but it didn't hapen when they put cap ships in and it's not happening now. and next patch a whole new team of forum warriors will pop up and they too will say that everything is wrong rawr! not that I agree with al of the changes just that I understand this is indeed the whole dev team. thay all play the ... ok riddle me this. if zulupark doesn't play the game but changes stuff alone he would there for ** off the playerbase no? now the rest of the devs in his office are playing eve, as we know the devs play eve. so wouldn't the devs in the office be ed too? I mean they know how the game works and they have been laying for 6 years, AND they are a 1 min walk away form zulupark. it's not like the whole dev team doesn't know about it. even if they didn't have a say the man wouldn't need US ***ing at him as the whole dev office wold allready be giving him REAL hell for us. but becuase this is just another 1% of the player base is alienated thing it's ok. its just all silly. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Vaal Erit	Posted - 2007.12.26 11:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Zeknichov Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes. That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them. Yup, I thank CCP everytime I log in that they continue to make changes and tinker with the game mechanics trying to improve them. Whether they completely break the ship I love to fly or give out new ship types, the game is constantly changing and it would absolutely suck if it didn't. I'm also very suprised that sometimes the devs don't make perfect design decisions, I mean CCP employees have ascended to another plane of existence where they never make mistakes and don't have to worry about money.
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.12.26 12:45:00 - [25] Sandpit. I am not backing down. _
Riethe	Posted - 2007.12.26 12:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Neon Genesis Sandpit. I am not backing down. If it's anything like quicksand, I don't think you have a choice.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.26 13:29:00 - [27] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/12/2007 08:42:51 Originally by: MotherMoon early part of post I wouldn't call rank incompetence of the in-game police force disruptive of the sandbox. High sec was meant to be safer, if not totally safe. It was neither safer nor safe when the guardians of that area could be tanked by players, which was clearly not in line with the idea of high sec. I'm sure CCP would have boosted Concord before m0o was tanking them had they known such tanking would be possible. The problem with this statement is that it is a slippery slope. For one mechanic change you claim "I'm sure CCP would have [changed this feature anyway]". Then for others you claim that they are killing the sandbox. Many feel the same way about recent changes as you do about the previous CONCORD changes. What makes one change "correct" and the other one "incorrect"? The forums are for discussing the game. One factor in these discussions will always be opinions on how to make the game better. It sounds like the OP wants people who don't agree with him to "stfu". Sorry not how the world works. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
MenanceWhite Antesignani Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.26 13:45:00 - [28] By "adapt" did OP mean the same thing as "spend some weeks idling while character trains other skills" because I'm a newbie character with not so many mill SP and the once "uber" ship/setup I specced for became below average from recent patch? allright I can still pvp/carebear/whatever fine in basic stuff but LOL SPs
Pheonix Kanan Caldari Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.26 13:58:00 - [29] Edited by: Pheonix Kanan on 26/12/2007 13:59:35 Originally by: Dirk Magnum Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/12/2007 08:28:32 With all due respect to the current lineup of devs, the game that was originally envisioned was a sandbox, unbound by the conventional classing or leveling of other MMO's. This concept, the one that made us "feel uncomfortable and slightly angry" (or whatever the exact words of that wise quote were) when we logged in is what we came to love. Homogenization is killing this vision. To a large extent of course this original vision still rings true in the game. Those of us taking time out of our day to partake in that most likely useless act that is forum whining/etc don't want to see inroads made against that by Devs whose vision apparently deviates from the original. It's our opinion that the sandbox is best, so we are stating it whenever the need arises, regardless of what the prevailing mood of the Devs actually is. We know that as a minority of the overall subscriber base what we say here on the forums may well amount to zip all in regards to the decisions they make. But hey, they gave us this forum to voice our opinion so we are going to make use of it. Agreed. Edit: He's correct. Might as well say it again. It's our right to forum whine. But only I get the cheese. -----
Zeknichov Life. Universe. Everything.	Posted - 2007.12.26 14:01:00 - [30] Originally by: MenanceWhite By "adapt" did OP mean the same thing as "spend some weeks idling while character trains other skills" because I'm a newbie character with not so many mill SP and the once "uber" ship/setup I specced for became below average from recent patch? allright I can still pvp/carebear/whatever fine in basic stuff but LOL SPs That's the way it has always been since 2003. Did you know there was a time when everyone trained Amarr because they were the best race? I know, it's CRAZY!

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