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Khanid Kutie
I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp
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Posted - 2007.12.26 14:50:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: MotherMoon
IT"S NOT ZULUPARK! ZULUPARK IS THE NEW PAPER MAN!
And his job is what? To make clueless statements about Eve's game mechanics?
You guys do realize that Mothermoon is the biggest fanboi/gurl of eve and will do anything to defend his/her future employer without prejudice?
It's sickening, and ridiculous how much ass he/she will kiss and not badmouth a product which is developed by CCP. Don't believe me? Read the sig of that char.
Arguing with him/her is nothing less than frustrating, and his/her posts are laced with "OMG LEAVE THEM ALONE I LOVE THEM SO MUCH" trash.
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StarRanger
Gallente
Royal Star Ranger Family
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Posted - 2007.12.26 15:10:00 -
[32]
Been playing from Beta-6 now, and firmly adapted to the changes CCP makes over time. Tho still some bugs keep making me angry (stuff that ones was working normal and suddenly gets broken), and hate the thought that CCP is going to fix it SOONÖ... 
Overall, the game is excellent. I love playing every day for at least 4 hours. It is the best game I've seen after I did Elite some years ago and will stick to EVE for many more years as its only gets better and better!
Just pleaseeeeee dont make to many unnecessary bugs, kthx!   
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.12.26 15:22:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Zeknichov
Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes.
That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them.
Step 1: Hire some devs who are more interested in subs than quality gameplay.
Step 2: 'Let the devs shape EVE into the game they envision'.
Step 3: Enjoy WoW in space.
Not saying this is what it currently happening, just a possible future.
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DesuSigs |
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.26 15:26:00 -
[34]
A sandbox is still a sandbox even if some of the sand has changed.
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Treelox
Amarr
Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party
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Posted - 2007.12.26 15:45:00 -
[35]
I wish the devs would adapt to the way we play this supposed "open sandbox" game is player by us the players.
If all these changes were a matter of balance then they should have addressed the issues when these percieved unbalances first became apparent to them. Nerfing things 1-3years after they have been in game means the sandbox is not as open as it has been advertized.
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Shinori
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.12.26 15:45:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Shinori on 26/12/2007 15:45:14
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
A sandbox is still a sandbox even if someone defecated in it.
fixed
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Victor Vision
Central Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2007.12.26 16:01:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Victor Vision on 26/12/2007 16:04:09
The weak adapt. The powerfull make others adapt.
Power is in the mind. It is your choice.
EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki |
Enve'la
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Posted - 2007.12.26 16:13:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Shinori
Edited by: Shinori on 26/12/2007 15:45:14
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
A sandbox is still a sandbox even if someone defecated in it.
fixed
That is usually the sign that it is time to leave the sandbox and go play on the jungle gym. Of course, the kid who eats rocks and can't keep his pants on will still play in the sandbox. |
Sisco Deivas
Omen Incorporated
CODE RED ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2007.12.26 16:18:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zeknichov
Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes.
That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them.
Old saying but... The customer is always right.
Sisco had a Raven, a Raven, a Raven,
Sisco had a Raven, a Raven that flew,
It flew in the morning, It flew in the night,
and when it came back it was covered in... |
Sharupak
Minmatar
Knights Of the Black Sun
Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2007.12.26 16:51:00 -
[40]
Agree with op. Unfortunately, this forum has been hijacked by newcommers that want game balance based off of traditional leveling mmos. They cant fathom being a 2 year old with the uber gear and get bested by a 1 year old character with the better setup.
And thats really the problem. Nobody ever says it, but thats where the whining comes from. After the whiner gets his head kicked in by someone with less sp (sometimes it happens multiple times)and assesses how he/she was beaten, they decide to go to the eveo forums and cry nerf speed, vagabonds, carriers, sensor damps, suicide ganking, Gallente, drones, NOS, snake sets and on and on. If we actually nerfed all of the things that there have been 10 or more threads about...there would be no game.
Remember when this game first came out? THE PLAYERS PRACTICALLY INVENTED THE GAME! Gate Camps/piracy was invented by players. The stock market was invented by players. Alliances were invented by players. And tons of other stuff. For most of the games life, the Devs have been making the software fit the natural evolution of the game created by the players. Other than suicide ganking, it just doesnt happen anymore because any aspect of the game that evolves, used to be embraced by CCP as a new aspect of the game, now gets nerfed due to incessant whining.
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RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
Lazuran
Gallente
Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.26 17:08:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Sharupak
Agree with op. Unfortunately, this forum has been hijacked by newcommers that want game balance based off of traditional leveling mmos. They cant fathom being a 2 year old with the uber gear and get bested by a 1 year old character with the better setup.
And thats really the problem. Nobody ever says it, but thats where the whining comes from. After the whiner gets his head kicked in by someone with less sp (sometimes it happens multiple times)and assesses how he/she was beaten, they decide to go to the eveo forums and cry nerf speed, vagabonds, carriers, sensor damps, suicide ganking, Gallente, drones, NOS, snake sets and on and on. If we actually nerfed all of the things that there have been 10 or more threads about...there would be no game.
Remember when this game first came out? THE PLAYERS PRACTICALLY INVENTED THE GAME! Gate Camps/piracy was invented by players. The stock market was invented by players. Alliances were invented by players. And tons of other stuff. For most of the games life, the Devs have been making the software fit the natural evolution of the game created by the players. Other than suicide ganking, it just doesnt happen anymore because any aspect of the game that evolves, used to be embraced by CCP as a new aspect of the game, now gets nerfed due to incessant whining.
Make up your mind ... either it's good to have the players shape the game and that would mean also listening to the "nerf X" whiners, or it's good to have CCP do what "they envision the game should become".
Myself, I'd argue that while new content is good, totally screwing up years old tactics, fittings and even Faction ships is just a nuisance and adds nothing to the game. You want to improve the game and take focus off old stuff? Then add new stuff that is worthwhile, not new stuff that is shiny junk while nerfing everything that's good. That goes for the Devs as well as the players.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
Sharupak
Minmatar
Knights Of the Black Sun
Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2007.12.26 17:14:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Sharupak on 26/12/2007 17:14:43
Make up your mind ...
Quote:
For most of the games life, the Devs have been making the software fit the natural evolution of the game created by the players. Other than suicide ganking, it just doesnt happen anymore because any aspect of the game that evolves, used to be embraced by CCP as a new aspect of the game, now gets nerfed due to incessant whining.
Its not in conflict if you scrap with us or against us ideology. Piracy and pirate hunting for example has had both sides whining about the other since their inception. CCP chose to created tools in the game to solidify both professions in the game instead of nerfing them out of existence.
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RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
Drizit
Amarr
Lonely out here
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.26 18:10:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
A sandbox is still a sandbox even if some of the sand has changed.
There's a big difference between a sandbox and a rock garden. Changing the sand into rocks destroys the original idea that made Eve unique. The nerfs over the last year or two have turned the game into a parody of itself.
Pretty much gone is the ability to fit a ship the way you want, now it's just deteriorated to tank or gank setups and in some cases, both. You can pretty much guess what setup any particular ship is using now because the diversity has gone along with the usefulness of the mods that once made up the variations in setups. Now, almost all setups are standardized for any given ship.
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Lazuran
Gallente
Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2007.12.27 15:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Drizit
You can pretty much guess what setup any particular ship is using now because the diversity has gone along with the usefulness of the mods that once made up the variations in setups. Now, almost all setups are standardized for any given ship.
This is my main gripe with all these nerfs... Yes, 5km/s Dominixes were silly, but at least they got some fights because people underestimated them. Nowdays you fit ship X and the enemy will know what your fitting is when your gang is reported, so most fights never happen if the gang composition alone suggests that you will win.
So: no diversity = fewer fights happen and those that do are too predictable.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois. |
Zeknichov
Life. Universe. Everything.
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Posted - 2007.12.27 16:05:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Lazuran
Originally by: Drizit
You can pretty much guess what setup any particular ship is using now because the diversity has gone along with the usefulness of the mods that once made up the variations in setups. Now, almost all setups are standardized for any given ship.
This is my main gripe with all these nerfs... Yes, 5km/s Dominixes were silly, but at least they got some fights because people underestimated them. Nowdays you fit ship X and the enemy will know what your fitting is when your gang is reported, so most fights never happen if the gang composition alone suggests that you will win.
So: no diversity = fewer fights happen and those that do are too predictable.
Are you familiar with macroeconomics? The classical theory of macroeconomics holds true for the most part over the long run but not the short run. This is applied the same to ship setups. After changes are made over the short run you will see deviations in setups but eventually in the long run no matter what people will use the best setup and over longer periods of time the best setup is more pronounced and easier to support with evidence and experience. CCP has actually been taking steps to increase diversification when they nerfed ECM, NOS and Damps. Modules that were very much overused and to be expected fit on nearly every ship.
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.12.27 17:04:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Drizit
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
A sandbox is still a sandbox even if some of the sand has changed.
There's a big difference between a sandbox and a rock garden. Changing the sand into rocks destroys the original idea that made Eve unique. The nerfs over the last year or two have turned the game into a parody of itself.
Pretty much gone is the ability to fit a ship the way you want, now it's just deteriorated to tank or gank setups and in some cases, both. You can pretty much guess what setup any particular ship is using now because the diversity has gone along with the usefulness of the mods that once made up the variations in setups. Now, almost all setups are standardized for any given ship.
My point wasn't to claim the changes were good or bad. Merely that the people brandishing the word "sandbox" around don't seem to understand it.
The sandbox can indeed be full of crap and leave no one willing to play in it. But since clear goals are not provided it is still a sandbox.
Whether EVE is good or bad, whether it has one type of sand or every grain is different does not change this aspect of the game.
As for the homogenizing of set-ups, it happens in every game, word spreads and a lot of people simply don't want to risk using an unproven set-up. But it's similar to many trading card games, there are a lot of decks that players have designed over the years. Still every now and then some innovative bright spark comes along with something new.
The only solution to this problem is to constantly provide or change modules, rigs, and implants. Even tweaking them to the point where various options are made viable, which is my ideal solution, will still mean there will be cookie cutter set-ups the balance can never be perfect and someone will always find the best way to do things (but at least there would be several ways to do things).
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MITSUK0
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Posted - 2007.12.27 18:10:00 -
[47]
CCP suck at balancing and they always have, they nerf to hard/boost too much (allthough we haven't seen much of a boost patch for how long?).
This does not bother me so much but was does bother me is that the game is stagnating. As much as everyone likes to brag about how hard eve is, it's really not. A ton of ships can be flown simply by ctrl+clicking on the right name then turning everything on. *snore*
Fucvk balance, they are crap at it anyway, lets get sub system targeting, combat environments, more work on heat, formation flying ect...
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.12.27 18:40:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Drizit
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
A sandbox is still a sandbox even if some of the sand has changed.
There's a big difference between a sandbox and a rock garden. Changing the sand into rocks destroys the original idea that made Eve unique. The nerfs over the last year or two have turned the game into a parody of itself.
Do I once again have to bring out my Wikipedia reference on sandbox gaming? People keeping throwing around "Classes of ships make it not a sandbox" or the like. Well, no, I'll just paraphrase it this time.
Sandbox gaming means there is no in-game mechanism or construct that makes the game about you must do x, y, and z in order to progress or in order to play. When you log on, you can do whatever the heck you want. Missions are the closest this game comes to being non-sandbox, but even then, you don't have to do them if you don't want to. If you want to sit in empire and mine Veldspar all day, go ahead. If you want to own half of 0.0, well, you can take your best shot at it, use your own ingenuity to form your corp/alliance. You can do whatever you want to achieve whatever goals you have set for yourself. That is pretty much the definition of sandbox gaming.
Now, you can only do this within the constructs of the game, and using the toys CCP has given you. (This is also in that article I was talking about.) These toys, like Marauders and Battlecruisers, that CCP gives us are like a shovel in a sandbox. A kid can use a shovel in a sandbox to throw some dirt around, or scoop it up in nice piles, or whatever he wants. But if he starts digging down to the clay or rock bed beneath, the parent might say, hey, that shovel wasn't designed to do that, so he takes it away and hands him a shorter shovel that can't reach that far. The sandbox hasn't changed, the kid just has to adapt and learn how to use his new toy in a new way. (Yeah, so sue me if you've read this same illustration yesterday in another thread.)
Did CCP change your favorite ship? Did they add a new class of ships that no longer makes yours the best for what you were using it for? First, go in the corner and cry about it, then come back to Eve and learn how to play with the new toys that are out there. But please, please, people, stop misunderstanding "sandbox gaming". You say they're turning Eve from a sandbox into a rock garden? Then maybe you just need to learn to grow up; the bigger you are, the more like sand it will seem again. Sand is just tiny pieces of rocks after all.
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My sig taken from this site, so thoroughly explains the people I speak with on the forums. |
Iyanah
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2007.12.27 18:45:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Zeknichov
Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes.
That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them.
i thought the #1 rule of EVE was "screw them as hard as you can, as often as you can!"
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that's no moon... oh, wait, yes it is, the space station's out the other window. |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.27 19:57:00 -
[50]
Indeed. Does Eve Online make you feel uncomfortable and slightly angry? If so, then apparently at least one dev is happy. 
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Join BH-DL
Skills |
Turin
Caldari
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.12.28 01:10:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Khanid Kutie
Originally by: Hannobaal
Originally by: MotherMoon
IT"S NOT ZULUPARK! ZULUPARK IS THE NEW PAPER MAN!
And his job is what? To make clueless statements about Eve's game mechanics?
You guys do realize that Mothermoon is the biggest fanboi/gurl of eve and will do anything to defend his/her future employer without prejudice?
It's sickening, and ridiculous how much ass he/she will kiss and not badmouth a product which is developed by CCP. Don't believe me? Read the sig of that char.
Arguing with him/her is nothing less than frustrating, and his/her posts are laced with "OMG LEAVE THEM ALONE I LOVE THEM SO MUCH" trash.
Have to admit, he does have a point. Your sig hardly leaves you with an voice of neutrality in the conversation. Go brown nose Zul some more. Maybe they will let you sweep up the paper shavings in the art room.
_________________________________
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Nyx Avatar
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Posted - 2007.12.28 01:19:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Nyx Avatar on 28/12/2007 01:20:12
Originally by: Zeknichov
Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes.
That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them.
Sorry man, I get what your saying but this concept is wrong. If enough people hate the "vision" the current devs have about the game guess what happens? EvE dies and no one gets to play.
If you think ONLY the devs should have a say as to where the game goes, thats your opinion, personally I feel that is VERY wrong but none the less it is your opinion.
Only thing I truely dislike about the current state of EvE is this need to kill the fun everyone has been having for a long time with ships by removing their abilities, instead of doing other things to curve down certain advantages a certain ship or mod may have they just kill it. IMHO thats the lazy way out and they opt for it everytime.
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Tellenta
Gallente
White-Noise
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Posted - 2007.12.28 02:39:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Zeknichov
Let the devs shape EVE into the game they invision. If you don't like it then quit. Otherwise adapt to it and take advantage of the changes.
That has always been the way of EVE. Exploit changes, stop *****ing about them.
I thought the #1 rule was dont grow attached to your stuff, and dont attach all your stuff to you.
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Sandor Krejaa
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Posted - 2007.12.31 19:04:00 -
[54]
Speaking as someone who has played a bunch of MMOs and listed to the nerf/balance talk on all of them, I am well past the point of caring even a little bit about what gets nerfed and game balance dicussions.
I only have one thing to say when it comes to nerf/balance issue talk.
"Uff Da"
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2007.12.31 19:15:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 26/12/2007 08:28:32
With all due respect to the current lineup of devs, the game that was originally envisioned was a sandbox, unbound by the conventional classing or leveling of other MMO's. This concept, the one that made us "feel uncomfortable and slightly angry" (or whatever the exact words of that wise quote were) when we logged in is what we came to love. Homogenization is killing this vision.
To a large extent of course this original vision still rings true in the game. Those of us taking time out of our day to partake in that most likely useless act that is forum whining/etc don't want to see inroads made against that by Devs whose vision apparently deviates from the original. It's our opinion that the sandbox is best, so we are stating it whenever the need arises, regardless of what the prevailing mood of the Devs actually is. We know that as a minority of the overall subscriber base what we say here on the forums may well amount to zip all in regards to the decisions they make. But hey, they gave us this forum to voice our opinion so we are going to make use of it.
Werd.
Boost Amarr
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