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My opinion on speed (nerf)

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General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:17:00 - [1] The big problem with speed in my opinion isn't one vaga that ganks my alt in a belt when I forget looking at him. It isn't the great soloing ability of a vaga thats the problem. Leave the vaga alone. Let it keep its role and usefulness. If speed mods gets nerfed give the vaga some love back (and give it to the lachesis and arazu at the same time ) The problem I see with speed is the nano gangs consisting of something like vaga, rapier, ishtar, curse. That can pick targets, avoid camps and even if they do go into a fight they never have to commit to it. If things get to rough they just mwd away and warp out. The only way to kill (notice I say kill not counter) a gang setup like this is to bring a nano gang yourself and THAT is what makes speed overpowered at the moment. Nerf HACs ability to nano, leave vagas ability alone.
Kurogauna	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:25:00 - [2] Another (heavy) solution to kill a nano gang is to bring a specialized capacitor neutralizer battle ship. No capa, no MWD. So the inties can tacle with web and scramble and the vaga can't go away. Then, let your gang finish the job. It won't take a long time.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:25:00 - [3] How do you propose to do this? -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:50:00 - [4] Edited by: General Coochie on 03/01/2008 00:51:13 Sorry for not suggesting anything. I see ppl posting complaints about the vaga or "how to counter a vaga" threads as arguments for and against a speed nerf when its not really the problem IMO. Increase the stacking penalty on speed modules by making all speed increasing effects stack? The problem might come from the fact that there are more then 1 variable affecting MWD speed. Mass and speed. Make the speed increase that comes from mass reduction stack with speed increase from overdrives. I dunno tbh.
Tensa	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:55:00 - [5] Solution? Interceptors... Interceptors should get a role bonus that makes their webs increase ship mass by a certain percentage. I love the changes they have done to them so far. Keep it up! Oh and to be fair, only the Tackling inties should have this bonus.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.01.03 00:55:00 - [6] the only nerf that I would accept, and I'm being the devil's advocate here since the speed nerf is mostly a cry of people that cannot adapt or stick their heads too deep in EFT, is to nerf the polys and snakes. otherwise Zulupark should drop whatever he's doing and start playing the game more and see how a nanogang can be easily defeated with the right tools, like everything else in this game. --- planetary interaction idea!
VB Sarge The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:07:00 - [7] I do have to agree that with the recent changes to modules that "effect more than 1 thing" and the cry that they are overpowered, hence the introduction of scripts, that a stacking penalty of all speed items combining might be a good introduction. Say nano's reduce ship mass but the cargo penalty really isn't a negative factor. Overdrive's, maybe introduce a slight (very very very slight) reduction in agility istabs, maybe, should have a very slight (again, very very very slight) reduction in overall speed to keep the agility up Poly's, I think, are the biggest issue here when it comes to speed mods. Take them away, and you'll see speeds decreasing tremendously at the top end. Give them some sort of speed penalty to keep them more in line with modules, and you should see some radical but legitimate changes. This would be the item that I would focus on if it were on my shoulders to make a change. I'm not in game right now so I can't toss out any numbers or anything. I still am not a fan of any sort of change of speed, as I think the ripple effect any change would have would be felt tremendously more than people realize. There was a module that was suggested that would increase the effective mass of a ship, something like a target painter but adds mass instead of sig radius. This would work wonders as an anti nano gang module, but I can't remember much of the discussion on that module, or even my own opinion at the time on it. I do have to agree with the point I think you were making at the end Coochie, that the Vaga's tank is its' speed, and as soon as you take that away the ship loses a LOT of it's effectiveness. However, the curse can't get much faster than 3.5k and neither can the rapier I don't think off hand. Still fast, but not a complete damage mitigator like the Vaga's 5.5km/sec realistic achievable speed. Time for work, sorry I'm not more clear here, had to rush it :p www.the-bastards.com
Kurogauna	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Grimpak see how a nanogang can be easily defeated with the right tools][/u]. What are the right tools?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Kurogauna Originally by: Grimpak see how a nanogang can be easily defeated with the right tools][/u]. What are the right tools? We get tired of spewing them over and over again. Someday I'll make a copy and paste list for this. A quick list, from memory: - Your Brain - Neutralizers - Your surroundings (gates, asteroids, stations, etc) - Ewar - Webs (Faction, otherwise) - Overheated MWDs (they work for you too!) - Manually flying to lower transversal, and/or escape - A Gang BTW, if it's you versus more than one.. you didn't get killed by nano - no matter how fast they're going. You got killed by a gang because you were caught solo. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:16:00 - [10] Edited by: General Coochie on 03/01/2008 01:24:59 Its just that most of those tools enables you to fight a nano gang and survive it, not kill it. If you want to have a chance of getting revenge you need a nano gang. Let the vaga nano, and rapier and huginn. Its like with all other nerf threads where ppl often argue that, take damps as an example, shouldn't be used on almost any ship. Well nanoing is done on most HACs. Its simply the best solution at the moment for most situations. Nano ishtar, nano sac, nano zealot Liang?, nano curse. The T2 cruisers that nano badly are the least used. The T2 cruisers that nano are used the most. sry for late edit
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:21:00 - [11] Originally by: General Coochie Its just that most of those tools enables you to fight a nano gang and survive it, not kill it. Clever use of any combination of these net you kills instead of losses. Killing them all isn't the only way to win, you know? Also, when it's you versus three of them and you manage to kill one... that is a success. Remember, when you die to a nano gang, you died to a gang. Also, most of the time, even when to fairly largish gangs clash, not everyone dies on one side (even when one side is clearly outmatched). -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.01.03 01:37:00 - [12] Edited by: Grimpak on 03/01/2008 01:38:07 Originally by: General Coochie Its just that most of those tools enables you to fight a nano gang and survive it, not kill it. by the nth time, winning doesn't imply blow up ships. a nano gang of 3 vagas attacks you for example. you managed to dock/escape/scare them off. what happened? you survived. mission accomplished. what about the gang? they didn't get any kills. mission failed. net result: you won, they lost. --- planetary interaction idea!
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.01.03 02:32:00 - [13] I want to kill a gang consisting of 3 nanod HACs cause they are disturbing my mining OP. they constantly come back. My only real defense is to permanently take care of them. I wanna setup a trap, gatecamp, something to take em out. what do I do then? If thats my goal, I can't achieve it within reasonable effort IMO except by using nanos myself off course.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 02:40:00 - [14] Originally by: General Coochie I want to kill a gang consisting of 3 nanod HACs cause they are disturbing my mining OP. they constantly come back. My only real defense is to permanently take care of them. I wanna setup a trap, gatecamp, something to take em out. what do I do then? If thats my goal, I can't achieve it within reasonable effort IMO except by using nanos myself off course. Well the problem is what you define as reasonable - because that's a very subjective description. So... what do you define as "reasonable" effort to take out a gang of specialized HAC's? -Lian -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
3nkil The Chocolate Factory	Posted - 2008.01.03 02:41:00 - [15] Edited by: 3nkil on 03/01/2008 02:42:30 Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 03/01/2008 02:37:28 I want to kill a gang consisting of 3 nanod HACs cause they are disturbing my mining OP. they constantly come back. My only real defense is to permanently take care of them. I wanna setup a trap, gatecamp, something to take em out. what do I do then? If thats my goal, I can't achieve it within reasonable effort IMO except by using nanos myself off course. I guess we have different opinions when it comes to that T2 cruiser gangs should be able to operate with extreme low risks compared to other ships in this game. Simple- 1) get a rapier/hugin 2) battleship with remote reps / heavy neuts 3) things that spam HEAVY MISSLES (heavy missles OWN nano ships at speeds where they can actually do dmg to you) 3.5) add in any kind of Jamming ship- vagas have horrid signal strength and you can fit racial jammers because well...they will be flying either vagas or ishtars.... 4) profit
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.03 02:54:00 - [16] Originally by: General Coochie I guess we have different opinions when it comes to that T2 cruiser gangs should be able to operate with extreme low risks compared to other ships in this game. If there's three nano HACs: - Put your miners in the belt INSIDE THE ASTEROIDS - Put 2-3 close range sniperthrons/tempests outside the belt by 50-70km. - Put a Hurricane or similar close range ship in the middle of the miners to take out drones. For added bonus points: put faction heavy neuts on your battleships, or have the BC in the middle of the roids running a gang mod (interdiction maneuvers, lock range, sensor integrity, etc). -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Semore Butts	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:01:00 - [17] Oh my god shut the ** up with speed nerf already. Nanoed ships are fine the way they are. Learn how to play the ***** game damnit.
Pickled Egg	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Semore Butts Oh my god shut the ** up with speed nerf already. Nanoed ships are fine the way they are. Learn how to play the ***** game damnit. You make a strong argument for nano pilots everywhere.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Pickled Egg Originally by: Semore Butts Oh my god shut the ** up with speed nerf already. Nanoed ships are fine the way they are. Learn how to play the ***** game damnit. You make a strong argument for nano pilots everywhere. Right on, I fell off my chair laughing. For real. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Semore Butts	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:50:00 - [20] Quote: You make a strong argument for nano pilots everywhere. Well what the hell do you expect me to say. It's been said sooooo many times already in this thread and other threads to use ECM/Webs/Neuts/Ceptors against nano ships ffs.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Semore Butts Quote: You make a strong argument for nano pilots everywhere. Well what the hell do you expect me to say. It's been said sooooo many times already in this thread and other threads to use ECM/Webs/Neuts/Ceptors against nano ships ffs. The point is, and youre still missing it, that there is too little risk with nano-ing. Yeah alot of stuff can scare it away but its still a win or draw situation and not a win or lose like for everyone else. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
ElCholo Minmatar The SMITE Brotherhood Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.04 03:59:00 - [22] Originally by: Semore Butts Oh my god shut the ** up with speed nerf already. Nanoed ships are fine the way they are. Learn how to play the ***** game damnit. Can I have your stuff when you quit after the next speed nerf?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 04:03:00 - [23] Originally by: ElCholo Originally by: Semore Butts Oh my god shut the ** up with speed nerf already. Nanoed ships are fine the way they are. Learn how to play the ***** game damnit. Can I have your stuff when you quit after the next speed nerf? Can we share his stuff? --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Syn G	Posted - 2008.01.04 04:13:00 - [24] Edited by: Syn G on 04/01/2008 04:14:38 its not that speed is overpowered. you just need to react. no miner should really ever be caught off guard. miners should be aligned if there isnt any support around. thats when you go to station and get out your nano pwning bs. domis with drone navigation links and neuts look promising to me. or if you can get 2 domis with 5x drone nav links and each with 4 energy transfers, youll be able to tank forever and... there are endless possiblities to counter these guys. you keep mentioning 3 hacs so im going to assume this happens on a regular basis and is not hypothetical. watch local! thats the best weapon you have against local belt pirates, you see them coming before theyre even there.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2008.01.04 04:21:00 - [25] Originally by: Semore Butts Quote: You make a strong argument for nano pilots everywhere. Well what the hell do you expect me to say. It's been said sooooo many times already in this thread and other threads to use ECM/Webs/Neuts/Ceptors against nano ships ffs. Keep setting up that straw man argument that the bulk argument is that people can't survive nano gangs. Ignore the fact that there is little to no risk to the nano gang which is not what many people want EVE to be about. Also ignore that nano gang combat isn't fun for many involved. There are opinions about these things that don't match your own. These have nothing to do with: -Keeping an account with CCP -Adapting and succeeding in game -Knowing "how" to play -Losing ships to nano ships/gangs The argument to change things are as selfish as the arguments to keep it the way it is. They are both opinions on how players want the game to be, but keep thinking there is some absolute that you are arguing and "correct" about. I would agree that nano ships aren't "overpowered" however. In the sense that nano ships are too "powerful". Also the issue is not very frustrating for me overall, but I think my gameplay would be slightly improved if speed was changed in a way that encouraged more engagements. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Miranda Moneybags	Posted - 2008.01.04 05:19:00 - [26] What is the speed nerf, and where can I read (officially released) info about it?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.04 05:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Miranda Moneybags What is the speed nerf, and where can I read (officially released) info about it? Here --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice

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