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Twiagon
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Posted - 2004.03.19 02:21:00 -
[1]
Since all the bug testing is done on Chaos, by the few that can get on and yet effect the many that either can't or can't be bothered......
Why not release the patches for 7 days, then make them mandatory?
That way, 1) you get to double check for bugs, you hit only some of the players (those willing to try them out for possible advantages) 2) you get to test that the patch is resiliant on TQ 3) you let people know what is coming....
and what would be really sweet if you could do this? if we could back the damn patch out until you resolve the issues!
Just a suggestion, to aid in QA, as it seems more help is needed....
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MindBender
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Posted - 2004.03.19 04:58:00 -
[2]
How about CCP try something even MORE novel, like testing their OWN code. This BS of having old bugs (like the docking and missle spinning ships bugs) is getting LAME.
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phrenesis
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Posted - 2004.03.19 08:44:00 -
[3]
This is often impossible because of the server side changes which makes the old version incompatible. Changing the code to except both versions would be asking for more bugs and we have enough of those, havn't we?
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Sicori Malaki
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Posted - 2004.03.19 12:06:00 -
[4]
hmm, have you considered how LARGE and COMPREHENSIVE the source code for eve is, it's not something you can just roll back easily. think the real problem considering patches is that Chaos is run on 1 machine and Tranq on a server cluster, different mechanics.
anyhow, isn't that already done with the optional patches ? ______________ Only in the Tales that humans tell, do the hunters kill the wolf in the end.
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PropanElgen
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Posted - 2004.03.19 12:10:00 -
[5]
Quote: hmm, have you considered how LARGE and COMPREHENSIVE the source code for eve is, it's not something you can just roll back easily. think the real problem considering patches is that Chaos is run on 1 machine and Tranq on a server cluster, different mechanics.
anyhow, isn't that already done with the optional patches ?
No, that is NOT the reason why they introduce old bugs with new patches. They have obviously poor control of their source-code, and as good as no QA. It still amazes me after this is happening EVERY PATCH, that they seem to do nothing about it. They thought it would get better by splitting the development into Castors and Shivas and whatnot, but as we see with every new patch it is just as bad as before.. They must have made enough money by now to hire a QA-Manager.
All the angels and the puny men of god looked away... Frightened to death by the evil that was born on that day!
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EveJunkie
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Posted - 2004.03.19 13:32:00 -
[6]
Quote: we see with every new patch it is just as bad as before..
Sorry but I really cant agree with you on that one, the patches in the past were terrible. They're really pretty good now. Sure we have a few problems and some bugs crop up again after being fixed but this is a horrifically complicated game being developed by a tiny dev team in a extremely short space of time. Its surprising that they manage to create what they have.
The fact the that Chaos is run on 1 machine and Tranq on a server cluster does have a lot to do with it. Some bugs really don't show up on chaos and don't surface until they hit the big TQ cluster.
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Bandus
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Posted - 2004.03.19 14:14:00 -
[7]
If you expect patches to be released in any MMPORG that has constantly evolving content you have to understand there are going to be bugs. It's just impossible for there not to be. If you don't like it...get the hell out of the game and go find a PACMAN machine or something...
Captain Bandus, Human Resources Officer
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MindBender
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Posted - 2004.03.19 15:05:00 -
[8]
Quote: If you expect patches to be released in any MMPORG that has constantly evolving content you have to understand there are going to be bugs. It's just impossible for there not to be. If you don't like it...get the hell out of the game and go find a PACMAN machine or something...
No one said we expected patches to be bug free. But a bug that was fixed in the last patch should NOT be re-introduced in the next patch. This shows VERY poor Source Code Control and a total lack of regression testing on CCP's part.
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Robert Fi'ania'Tharius
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Posted - 2004.03.19 16:24:00 -
[9]
As I've been an admittedly multi game pers. world mmorpg player, AC, E&B, EQ, UO, EVE, and others. I can easily say, eve has done well by patch/bug ratio...heh, UO, early on had some major crazy problems when updating. EQ, I don't know how many times and patches came about that I would still randomly walk about and fall 10,000,000 feet through solid ground and hear "oh thought we fixed that".
The problem lies in that with any large multi-dev code operation, such as eve, they often take old code, copy and reuse, sometimes with minor annoyance bugs in place, with so many devs working on the same software things arise. Every single code that exceeds 2 pages is almost guaranteed a bug or 50. They don't typically test EVERYTHING, with chaos testing, just notice there's usually 10-30 players at most on there, they don't attempt every possible feature, usually they simply play with the new ones. When introduced to a group of 7000 players at one time however, small anoyance "features" readily appear as with this size group people are bound to do small things that no one on chaos regularly test. Things arise, they try to fix it. Evolving worlds cannot evolve without problems often times. I'm sure I'll get fanboy flamage here, but it's not the case, it's just simply it's the same here as everywhere, trying to implement enough new content to keep us happy, is assuredly going to introduce bugs, quit crying and whining, and simply politely tell them they'll fix it soon enough. They work hard I'm sure trying to make this the best game they can, and so far I'm happy with eve, the docking thing is annoying as hell though ;-0....but it's not going to make me mad.....as far as releasing patches for 7 days and then making them mandatory, that would cause problems as you cannot have a multi-version client -> single version server setup, even MORE bugs then when people use features included in the new client and not the old that run client side...
Robert Fi'
Axiom Technologies Incorporated - [Axi] on your stock ticker _______
Justice for the Intaki People
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Hellmar
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Posted - 2004.03.19 17:05:00 -
[10]
Just to give you an idea: EVE source code is about 0.5 million lines and about 100 GB of database state. Different bugs often manifest themselves in different ways, so even if the effect might look the same the cause is not.
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voogru
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Posted - 2004.03.19 17:38:00 -
[11]
Quote: Just to give you an idea: EVE source code is about 0.5 million lines and about 100 GB of database state. Different bugs often manifest themselves in different ways, so even if the effect might look the same the cause is not.
Is this the client and server? How many lines is the server-side end alone? ------- Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes Guardian Enforcer, wrecking for 827.3 damage. |
Azondi
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Posted - 2004.03.19 18:26:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Azondi on 19/03/2004 18:27:37 Hellmar, Perhaps a mini-cluster should be setup for Chaos. One that allows something like 100 users or so to test on it at once. Also, you guys had said that patchnotes would be released a few days in advance of the patch being released, but that has not happened the last 2 patches. Also, there are those annoying little surprises, such as the Miner 2 requirements going up, or the Torp/Cruise missile skill requirements going up, that should be well documented in the patchnotes, and well communicated in advance
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Michel Licari
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Posted - 2004.03.22 03:34:00 -
[13]
I have to agree with Azondi... it is the sneaking in of changes and insufficient advance notice.. that really bugs me...
'To fight when others fold, pursue while others retreat. conquer while others quit and make right when all else is wrong' |
Murple
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Posted - 2004.03.22 18:14:00 -
[14]
I agree, please warn us in advance.
Gotta love my city-sized roid vacuum cleaner! |
eXcs
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Posted - 2004.03.24 12:41:00 -
[15]
I agree too, we don't like silent changes
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.03.24 13:31:00 -
[16]
yeah, I also hate the silent changes, the example which sucks most for me: Removing high mins from T2 components without telling players in advance. its like devaluating your money and not fair.
I can understand that its hard to test patches enough but it should not be hard to announce changes before doing them. 2 times I almost quit eve because of such surprises, its not funny to loose hundreds of millions of isk because of such changes.
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Peek Aboo
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Posted - 2004.03.24 22:52:00 -
[17]
I'll stick my oar in here, this is probably very unfair, but whatever.
The perception I have of some of the bugs goes like this:
Dev: Hmmm. Monday morning. Tum ti tum. What to do??? Dev: I know, <insert feature here> seems to have been working fine for months Dev: /Loads up <insert feature here>.py Dev: clickety clickety tap tap (random source code edit) Dev: Presses "port to server" button Dev: Sorted! That'll learn 'em.
Like I say, this probably very unfair, but I do have to wonder. I mean, the graphical stutter-glitch during warp. Why was that code changed? How deeply do you have to test the game to spot it?
Anyway, I still love the game, (most) bugs and all, so don't go getting paranoid Dev
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Rymar Vortox
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Posted - 2004.03.25 03:10:00 -
[18]
Quote: Just to give you an idea: EVE source code is about 0.5 million lines and about 100 GB of database state. Different bugs often manifest themselves in different ways, so even if the effect might look the same the cause is not.
!!! Sounds like fun :P
but what does that have to do the with Chaos and TQ having different config setups? How can code that runs bug free on Chaos using it's own config be guaranteed to run bug free on TQ using a different config?
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Daytrader
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Posted - 2004.04.13 03:13:00 -
[19]
So basically it boils down to US the th "customers" paying for a substandard product. Alright stop spamming me already -it has outstanding potential BUT ~ 1 yr later I am still having SAME bugs as then yet im paying for 2 accts. Nver had this prob with any other MMORG.
As for the QA comments- I have to say they SUCK- still have an intermittent login bug which a few other also have experienced too. Pann said they (QA) would contact me ASAP then thgey started releasing patcxhes after Castor and I never HEARD FROM THEM.
fyi CCP this is a crappy way to run a business |
Expert Newbie
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Posted - 2004.04.13 11:09:00 -
[20]
If you're so discontent with the game, go play another game, like Ultima Online, oh wait that's boring, or maybe Everquest, oh wait that's full of hacks, ok perhaps Planetside, oh wait that's unbalanced like crap. Bottom line is, people don't realize how hard programming really is. I've taken a basic C++ programming course and we would have the weirdest bugs on the simplest of programs. You can't honestly expect them to make a bug-free game from 500,000 lines of code when things are constant being tweaked, edited, and added upon. And it's like the Dev guy said, the same bugs have different causes. If you're think you're so hot and you can do way better than the Devs, go and find some big Linux program (like OpenOffice) and fix every single bug in it. An entire TEAM of developers couldn't make the program bug-free, what makes you think you can? Or the CCP Devs for that matter?
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Cydrone
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Posted - 2004.04.14 04:51:00 -
[21]
*Cheers Expert Newbie on* ------------------------
Greed is Eternal
It doesn't think, It doesn't feel It doesn't laugh or cry All it does from dusk till dawn Is make the soldiers die.
Currently Training: Folding Space Level 5 |
Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2004.04.14 08:45:00 -
[22]
Quote: If you're think you're so hot and you can do way better than the Devs, go and find some big Linux program (like OpenOffice) and fix every single bug in it.
Nonono, I want an ALSA support in MythTV
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Zoriander
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Posted - 2004.04.16 15:31:00 -
[23]
I've been designing, building, testing and supervising complex systems (mmorpg's included) for some odd twenty years now. No matter how hard you try it's absolutely impossible to deliver a bug free system.
Sure some of the current bugs maybe annoying but in the last nine months I've experienced an enormous increase in game quality and stability (which is not a small undertaking by any measure for a highly complex system as eve is).
What we players need to do is notify CCP about bugs we encounter and the situations under which they occur. It's CCP's responsibility to prioritize and solve the bugs. *****ing and whining about defects and/or the quality of devs does not serve any purpose.
But there's one thing I'd like to see and that's a decent bug/feature tracker where we can comprehensively post our incidents/problems and keep informed about the state of defects and features.
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Gravimetric
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Posted - 2004.05.10 03:31:00 -
[24]
Hellmar,
How does the code line count split-out between C++, Python, and SQL?
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Phoenix ShadowDancer
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Posted - 2004.07.21 17:55:00 -
[25]
Change some pic attribute and oh there you go it overruns buffer A, fix buffer A not its not being read correctly by procedure xyz, fix procedure x and now the dam thing is out of scope for class B, and so on. A bug free system is a pipe dream that will never happen. I'm just glad they do look into root causes and try and fix things as they crop up. When you work with systems on a daily basis it's not if they will crash, it's when and long it will be down for.
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Phoenix ShadowDancer
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Posted - 2004.07.21 17:55:00 -
[26]
Change some pic attribute and oh there you go it overruns buffer A, fix buffer A not its not being read correctly by procedure xyz, fix procedure x and now the dam thing is out of scope for class B, and so on. A bug free system is a pipe dream that will never happen. I'm just glad they do look into root causes and try and fix things as they crop up. When you work with systems on a daily basis it's not if they will crash, it's when and long it will be down for.
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Jettison
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Posted - 2004.07.24 05:56:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jettison on 24/07/2004 05:58:38
Originally by: MindBender How about CCP try something even MORE novel, like testing their OWN code. This BS of having old bugs (like the docking and missle spinning ships bugs) is getting LAME.
Im not a programmer, and I can bet you are not either. So how about you drink a big ole can of STFU!!! and enjoy the game!!
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Jettison
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Posted - 2004.07.24 05:56:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Jettison on 24/07/2004 05:58:38
Originally by: MindBender How about CCP try something even MORE novel, like testing their OWN code. This BS of having old bugs (like the docking and missle spinning ships bugs) is getting LAME.
Im not a programmer, and I can bet you are not either. So how about you drink a big ole can of STFU!!! and enjoy the game!!
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2004.07.24 06:46:00 -
[29]
ugh, let the old thread die. locky please?
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Aitrus
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Posted - 2004.07.24 06:46:00 -
[30]
ugh, let the old thread die. locky please?
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