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Mouji AlMefel	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:29:00 - [1] Are Missiles viable in PvP or is it really a Gunnery game?
Trevor Warps	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:31:00 - [2] You tried pvp yet ?
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:32:00 - [3] Outside fleet sniping etc, missiles are fine. Perceived problems tend to be more to do with the missile platforms themselves, and the modules that people fit on those ships.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:33:00 - [4] Depends really. Torps are incredible on the Raven for solo PvP. Missiles will generally hit most targets for at least some damage which is an advantage. The closer range fights tend to go to the gun boats, but when you move to the outer edgeds of reasonable range for a ship class missiles tend to do better damage. As a side note it's generally eaiser to fit missiles on a ship than guns, which gives you room for better non gun gear.
Ap0ll0n Gallente Pikfjaes	Posted - 2008.01.04 19:56:00 - [5] With the recent torp boost/nerf, torps are ideal for lowsec gatecamping, because of the quite heavy dps, and the ability to switch damage type. A T2 fitted Raven with 4 BCS II and T2 siege launchers does beautiful dps, with my skills, just about 900 dps, and thats without drones.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:18:00 - [6] I'd like to see a cruise missle speed increase. But that's probably a little biased. I like the idea of Stealthbombers you see Would help sniping Ravens though. Not that I use them.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:29:00 - [7] They're usable. A solid midrange weapon, which happens to be usable at both short and long ranges. Damage isn't stunning in most cases, but it's not bad, and the ability to switch damage types is a useful PvP asset. At extreme range, missile flight time is a nuisance, and at short ranges you're trading fire with people with 'point blank gank', but ... well unlike the gunnery alternatives, doing so is actually an option. Oh, and have different problems with fast moving ships than turrets - explosion velocity and explosion radius serve to reduce your effectiveness against smaller, _or_ faster ships. (Turrets also have problems against smaller/faster ships, but are situationally better or worse) -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
AnKahn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.01.04 20:59:00 - [8] Missiles are damage over time, so actual numbers are not stunning. Most extreem high DPS by guns is at point blank range. You must factor in travel time MWDing tward the target with a gun ship. However when you get there most targets melt pretty fast under the gun. The advantage of the missile boat is it's ability to change targets quickly. So if you add up all the damage on the killmails from a medium sized fight you will probabaly find that the missile boats are very competitive with regards to damage over a fight. The longer the fight the better missile boats do, unless it's a carrier *****where tracking and travel is negated. You just will not usually be first on the killmails. But consistantly second or third if gangmates are the same class as you.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:04:00 - [9] They're not very useful in large fleet combats because the target would often be dead before your missiles arrive. They're not very good against nano gangs because all a ship has to do to be immune to missile fire is go fast enough. (Unlike turrets, where someone matching your transversal or far enough away can still hurt you). So, good for med/small gangs where nanos aren't involved. They're not useless at all, just disadvantaged in a few areas. And hey at least if you're a missile boat you can shoot out FoF missiles even while jammed, for some visual interest and distraction.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:08:00 - [10] One other bonus is it's easier to train for a T2 launcher than a T2 turret. Plus missiles are more flexible weapons. They work at any range and don't really lose effectivness. You basically trade outright damage for overal usefulness.
Sean Faust	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:17:00 - [11] Missiles are fine in PvP as long as you understand their limitations and don't try to make them do something they're not good at. First thing to understand is that missiles, like guns, are divided into short range and long range variants. The short range ones deal significantly higher DPS but generally mandate the use of an MWD and a webber, which can hurt your survivability if you're a shield tanker. Long range missiles cannot match the DPS of blasters, autocannons, and pulse lasers, and rightfully so. They're meant to be compared to Railguns, Artillary, and Beam Lasers. One of a missile's strengths is that as long as the target is not out of the missile's range, and is not moving faster than the missile itself can travel, then the missile is guaranteed to hit its target. If you've played world of warcraft or any other MMORPG then you'll understand what I mean when I say that missiles are like DoTs or poison/bleed effects. The damage isn't spectacular, but is consistent and reliable. They cannot score wrecking blows but cannot miss either. They are highly impractical for fleet sniping as it takes missiles a long time to reach their target and, when firing on primaries, the target will likely already be dead from your fleet mates before your first volley even reaches them. Long range missiles are: Light missiles, Heavy missiles, and Cruiser missiles. These sacrifice damage for range. Short range missile are: Rockets, Heavy assault missiles, and Torpedos. These sacrifice range for a significant damage increase and are generally more preferable for PvP. The problems missiles experience in PvP are generally attributed more to Caldari ship bonuses and the fact that they're shield tankers than missiles themselves. Because Caldari ships are shield tankers, they cannot spare the mid slots for the 3 necessary PvP mods that go along with close range weapons (MWD, Web, Scram). Also, many Caldari ships have bonuses that apply to long range missiles but not short range ones, meaning that even if they did fit them, their DPS would be higher with the ranged ones than short range. It is very hard to make a shield tanking missile ship work in solo or small gang PvP as you need dedicated tacklers. However, the Amarr Khanid missile ships rock. Just my opinions.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.04 22:17:00 - [12] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 04/01/2008 22:19:03 I find missiles to be relatively nice in PvP; I fly almost exclusively Minmatar ships, and they require both gunnery and missile skills to really shine. That said, guns do have certain advantages: - no damage reduction versus smaller ships as long as you track (which can be insured by maneuvering/webbing) - instantenous damage - typically somewhat higher point-blank DPS excluding torpedoes which are very competitive DPS wise - slightly better long-range T2 ammo for short range guns (while javelins nerf your speed) - better chances of hitting fast ships (provided you know how to fly and have decent gunnery, applies only to short-range weapon systems due to their better tracking - unlike missiles, for guns target straight-line speed is of no concern) Missiles have a few advantages of their own (talking mostly about short-range weapon systems, don't personally use long-range missiles): - full damage up to optimal range (whereas guns often fire at their optimal+falloff for reduced DPS) - typically better optimal range - very very good optimal range with T2 long range ammo (better at range then short-range gun T2 long range ammo at the expense of significantly less DPS) - full damage type selection (all missiles do equal DPS regardless of damage type unless you have specific ship bonuses, something no gun has) - damage isn't instanenous (an advantage if someone's pursuing you; you get more effective range out of missiles that way) - slightly more DPS boost out of overheating due to getting a ROF bonus instead of a damage bonus Rifters!
Mouji AlMefel	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:25:00 - [13] "The longer the fight the better missile boats do, unless it's a carrier *****where tracking and travel is negated." I don't understand what this means? How are carriers different? No, I haven't really done any PVP yet where I wasn't being ganked in my little miner anyway.
cal nereus Hobos of War Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:55:00 - [14] Missiles are just fine for PvP. Torpedoes are among the highest damage weapons for close range combat, and the amount of time missiles spend en route to their target is negligible in non-sniper situations. --- Join BH-DL Skills
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Sp00t	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Mouji AlMefel "The longer the fight the better missile boats do, unless it's a carrier *****where tracking and travel is negated." I don't understand what this means? How are carriers different? No, I haven't really done any PVP yet where I wasn't being ganked in my little miner anyway. Guns don't have any problems hitting such a massive target; plus any close range ships will have to be there for a while to take down a large target, so, they'll manage to deal out quite a bit of damage (not a lot of target switching). --- Amarr/Caldari, and proud of it. Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Belce Caldari ADAMA Corps Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.05 01:12:00 - [16] The important thing in PvP is winning the engagement. Using missles correctly does contribute to winning engagements. To be clear, there is a difference between winning and killing ships, there is such a thing as a phyric victory. A fleet commander looking to use missles and guns does need to the difference speed of impact of the two systems. Asking missle ships to fire on targets destroyed before they arrive when multiple targets exist is to be blunt stupid. A fleet commander should want to see results that are beneficial for the engagement from all of their members. As you know missles take time to arrive and in some cases the target could leave before they arrive or be destroyed. There is no advantage to having missles arrive at dead ships, but there is an advantage when a ship leaves local due to incoming missle fire. If a few missle boats can force something like a logistics cruiser to leave local and make the primary target easier to pop, then job well done. It is just foolish in a multi ship encounter to apply a cookie cutter response to it. Truth is Truth
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2008.01.05 03:24:00 - [17] Torps are fun in PVP with the last change. I would recommend them to anyone. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu I'd like to see a cruise missle speed increase. But that's probably a little biased. I like the idea of Stealthbombers you see Would help sniping Ravens though. Not that I use them. I always wondered why bombers didn't get a boost to cruise missile velocity.. _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:25:00 - [19] Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 05/01/2008 04:25:36 There is one thing that really irks me about missiles and its the fact that close range launchers like HAMs and Torps use more powergrid than the long range versions. But the short range high damage turrets use less powergrid than their long range counterparts and that sucks tbfh and Caldari ships dont have great PG to start with. ----------------------------------------------- My new years resolution is to give up nonconstructive posting
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2008.01.05 04:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon Originally by: Atsuko Ratu I'd like to see a cruise missle speed increase. But that's probably a little biased. I like the idea of Stealthbombers you see Would help sniping Ravens though. Not that I use them. I always wondered why bombers didn't get a boost to cruise missile velocity.. I wouldn't trade any of the current bonuses for a speed bonus anyway, unless I'm in empire, then the bomb bonus can be swapped.

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