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FastLearner
Fury Holdings
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.04 21:46:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: SiJira
no public ipos should have any offering without either collateral for full and one months pay held by a trusted party or someone really trusted stating publicly that they will pay the full amount and one months pay if anything goes wrong
this can mean an alt with ceo status in the corp and the person running would be director so that the security holder knows the shareholders and can not get roles removed - leniency would be a hot topic
this doesnt mean that everyone should invest just because an ipo is secure or that reporting isnt required anymore - these things are important and should be encouraged to separate the successful ipos from the less successful ones - what it does mean is that people dont have to sign away all their private information to get trust and funding
--anyone asking for money should not get it without a solid form of security held by a trusted member with undisputed trust
this rule is not up for discussion only the enforcement of it - small ipos under 1 billion can be secured by many members here without a second thought and large ipos should have some collateral or connections as proof that they know how everything works and that they can gain a lot of trust and money on their own
a lot of the md regulars want to get more people of the general eve population to invest - it wont happen if 1 out of 4 of the ipos that dont sell out within an hour are scams - and if anyone has kept score thats about the ratio of all the ipos that dont sell out quickly meaning what the average player can invest in since they dont check the md three times a day
no offense to ebank since it is a great service but there are people not affiliated with ebank that are trusted and can hold the collateral - all eggs cant be in one basket
What's a trusted person?
Who decides what a trusted person is? What if the person running the IPO doesn't trust anyone?
What if a trusted person wants to run an IPO - can they hold their own collateral?
Why on earth would anyone want to run an IPO if they had to provide full collateral (other than scammers and people trying to build reputation)? Wouldn't a loan be cheaper, easier to get and less onerous in terms of reporting requirements (though with the crappy reports some IPOs get away with, that last point may not be all that valid)?
What about Bonds? Or are they the same as IPOs in your eyes?
Can 2 trusted people hold collateral for one another? Think about that one a bit.
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FastLearner
Fury Holdings
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.05 02:20:00 -
[2]
Edited by: FastLearner on 05/01/2008 02:20:55
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: SiJira
im not calling anyone a scammer - i pointed out that a scammer has no reason to like my proposal at all
I dont like your proposal at all, ergo I fit at least part of your definition of a scammer.
TBH, IMO your proposal would make it easier for a scammer, because then they only need to fool 1 person to gain public acceptance for their "plan". Its a lot easier to fool 1 person in private than it is to fool a bunch of people in public as far as im concerned.
dont take it personally i play the devils advocate sometimes too
if you can fool someone like dark shikari or chribba with constant work and audits of your isk then have fun
even if you did fool someone so huge this proposal allows the average guy with only a billion in his pocket and a yarr to his name to keep investing
Quote:
I also find it telling that none of the "big names" have so far bothered to acknowledge this thread. While by scanning other threads in MD they have been active since you started this one.
so how can a scammer get past this?
a scammer can have an alt several years old that is very active on the forums and has helped dozens or hundreds of people in game and out and has the general trust of the community and have this alt vouch for his big scam - he still loses because once that big name scams it isnt coming back and as eve gets older the age and activity of a character requirements will become larger
a scammer can convince an eve guru of his good intentions with constant honest playing and then he can scam for one or two billion isk - an amount that should be the maximum for any new ipo
a scammer can put in the work just like a regular ipo and after a few successesful ipos he can scam 20 billion - thats a lot of work for a measly 20 billion especially since people would expect a very good plan for that much
Capitlaisation (with a z for our American friends I guess) is your friend. I've used Chribba a few times on transactions (buying two motherships) and his service was always prompt and professional. Why you name him and DS as examples of trustworthy people remaibns, however, a mstery to me. Until (and unless) you identify how "trust-worthy" people are defined you have about zero chance of getting any credibilty (even IF you learn how to use the shift key to obtain capital letters in your posts).
Most of us here couldn't care what you think. Me more than most - as if people don't invest because they think I'm a scam (becaue person X's alt with no litercy didn't approve of my lack of collateral) then it's X less Pms per day asking mehow they can invest that I have to deal with.
It's a seller's market because there's a lack of sellers able to make decent profits AND willing to share them. That happens to suit me fine - as I have no desire to run some charity event giving ISK out to the incompetent. I also don't care who I offend with my comments after I've got back from the pub. And I specifically don't care what someone with no history and no apparent ability to use their shift key thinks of what I do. I'd wait up to handle rthe rish of withdrawals except, sadly, I doubt theyre'll be one: despite me offering no colllateral and no gurantee beyond my word. But my word's that good - and that's what all the nameless alts (like yourself) can't understand.
The reason I ONLY have 170 million deposited is because I've gone out of my way to avoid accepting more, No doubt the same applies to ther other well-known financial institutios such as EBank and Ionia. What we all have in common is that we've all got the ISK we're after pretty swiftly. OK, EBank had to spam the forums a lot - but that's just the way they work :) If you want a serious repky then I suggest you learn some basic grammar (beginning with what a shift key is - and what a capital letter means) and then I'll find ome reasong to totally ignore your view-point.
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FastLearner
Fury Holdings
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.05 02:41:00 -
[3]
I fear my previous reply may be a little unclear to the OP. So let me clarify my position:
When you learn to use proper capitalisation (yeah - change the s for a z if you're American) then I still won't take you seriously. Your view has approximately zero interest to me (I'm erring on the side of caution there). Doubtless EBank feels similarly - though they'd need a committee vote before they could say so :)
The best returns on the marklet are provided by people who have competence - not by people who have their assets secured. Possibly the three largest active investment sinks are Fury Bank, FRPB and EBank - all of whom probably control over 100 billion of player ISK. And none of them ahve their assets secured with a thrid party - yet all can get more ISK easily. Trust is earned by demonstrating you're trust-worthy, not by acting in some sterile environemnt where trust is irrelevant. That some people are gullible enough to invest in fairly obvious scams is amusing - but hardly a major issue for the market at large. Riether gained over his half scammed ISK AFTER I'd pointed out in his thread that his math did't add up. Maybe more than half judging by Jita local. If the terminally stupid and the terminally greedy lose some ISK becaus of their failings then I'm certianly losing no sleep over it. Are you? And if you are, then maybe use some that sleep-less time to learn what a capital letter is used for?
Sorry if it sounds like I don't care what your opinion is. Hmmm. Actually I DON'T care what your opinion is - so I restract that apology. How about you ask everyone you know with money in Fury Bank to withdraw their funds? If I'm lucky you may actually know someone and the balance I owe will lower. Try for people with HIAs if you can.
if it souds liek I'm not taking you seriously then at last you have some perception. And the same's likely true for the other major players in the market - just EBank have a committe running them so a vote is neeced to express an official view (though if you're "lucky" La Vista won't have been sent to bed yet and can give his input).
try again with capitalisation and credibility - and at least your thread may get some consideration before it's shut down.
I'll be online with Fury Banker for the next hour or so in case I'm lucky enough that anyone wants to withdraw because I make posts after a few beers.
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FastLearner
Fury Holdings
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2008.01.05 03:42:00 -
[4]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Monty Kvaran
Trying to eliminate high return investments helps no one, and there is always a tradeoff between risk and reward...
they wont be eliminated - they will be clearly unsecured and no one will leave the md because most of the isk they earned in the past 6 months is gone
and im way ahead of you on the other points
High-return investments aren't going to exist in a fully-secured environemnt. Return is usually tied to risk - and with no risk (eliminatd by IPOs being secured) there's no need for IPOs to ofer high returns. I'd like more high risk/high return investments - not less. Where we have common ground is possibly in that I'd like the risk to be unforeseen market movements, rather than the IPO owner getting bored/stressed and giving up on trying (or being a scammer from the start).
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