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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.04 20:56:00 -
[1]
no public ipos should have any offering without either collateral for full and one months pay held by a trusted party or someone really trusted stating publicly that they will pay the full amount and one months pay if anything goes wrong
this can mean an alt with ceo status in the corp and the person running would be director so that the security holder knows the shareholders and can not get roles removed - leniency would be a hot topic
this doesnt mean that everyone should invest just because an ipo is secure or that reporting isnt required anymore - these things are important and should be encouraged to separate the successful ipos from the less successful ones - what it does mean is that people dont have to sign away all their private information to get trust and funding
--anyone asking for money should not get it without a solid form of security held by a trusted member with undisputed trust
this rule is not up for discussion only the enforcement of it - small ipos under 1 billion can be secured by many members here without a second thought and large ipos should have some collateral or connections as proof that they know how everything works and that they can gain a lot of trust and money on their own
a lot of the md regulars want to get more people of the general eve population to invest - it wont happen if 1 out of 4 of the ipos that dont sell out within an hour are scams - and if anyone has kept score thats about the ratio of all the ipos that dont sell out quickly meaning what the average player can invest in since they dont check the md three times a day
no offense to ebank since it is a great service but there are people not affiliated with ebank that are trusted and can hold the collateral - all eggs cant be in one basket
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.04 22:18:00 -
[2]
Edited by: SiJira on 04/01/2008 22:21:55
 Originally by: Robacz
So IPO holder takes 100% risk and shareholders none? That doesn't seem to be right. Risk vs. reward, if you want free work-less ISK, you have to risk a bit.
by wrong i meant scam - note that you took my post out of context and you need to read this Quote:
this doesnt mean that everyone should invest just because an ipo is secure or that reporting isnt required anymore - these things are important and should be encouraged to separate the successful ipos from the less successful ones
that means if the plan sucks you should be well aware of the risks and the security isnt released to you just because one of the risks became reality
Originally by: Kirjava
Just something I need to point out, it seems a bit off to give isk to someone to give that isk out after. Similarly, a BPO can be bought with a percentage of the initial investment.
Ie a 10M ipo is increased to 12M, 2 of which are used to buy a Kesstrel BPO to act as collateral.
thats why you can get a trusted member to state explicitly that they will pay the entire amount back and the promised returns for the month if you - unexpectedly - never log on again - no isk is left idle but the security is there
this shouldnt be a problem for anyone that isnt a scammer - it might require some planning and making real friends - im sure anyone that trusted the ipo issuer would be glad to know about the ipo before it goes public and get a chunk
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.04 22:35:00 -
[3]
Originally by: FastLearner
What's a trusted person?
Who decides what a trusted person is? What if the person running the IPO doesn't trust anyone?
you are a trusted person - most market regulars are trusted persons
if you dont trust someone like shadarle then its up to you not to invest - generally trusted people are obvious and some dont even frequent the market forum
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What if a trusted person wants to run an IPO - can they hold their own collateral?
they can if they want to - even a trusted person can get more security by having another trusted person explicitly say they will pay everyone if the ipo issuer dissapears
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Why on earth would anyone want to run an IPO if they had to provide full collateral (other than scammers and people trying to build reputation)?
a scammer cant scam if no one trusted will provide security for them - and if they give collateral then it would be a great scam since everyone gets paid anyways
this means anyone thats honest can spend an extra month or two proving their trust and loyalty - its up to the security holder to decide if its genuine - if you cant handle the risk dont do the job
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.04 22:36:00 -
[4]
Originally by: FastLearner
Wouldn't a loan be cheaper, easier to get and less onerous in terms of reporting requirements (though with the crappy reports some IPOs get away with, that last point may not be all that valid)?
What about Bonds? Or are they the same as IPOs in your eyes?
Can 2 trusted people hold collateral for one another? Think about that one a bit.
no - these types of details are not hard to find and the dilemma wont happen if everyone keeps their eyes open
Originally by: Auri Hella
Originally by: Riethe
The thread title alone is enough to disregard this entire post.
Agreeing with this.
caught your attention 
Originally by: Coconut Joe
Nucon anyone?
asked for the security to be held by them
if you cant see the difference between a market regular like hexxx and some unknown then i cant help you
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.04 23:07:00 -
[5]
scamming cant exist if we go with this because no big name will sell out for a few billion
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 01:02:00 -
[6]
in response to both posts above
im not going to accuse anyone of anything but a scammer replying here would post exactly what you guys did
if someone is honest and has no intention to scam those who trust them and are richer can vouch for them - saying no more public ipos are need is ridiculous because scammers wont get explicit statements by known people saying theyll repay the entire amount in case of a - dissapearance - lets call it and honest people will usually want to do a public ipo and not get all their isk privately
little guys that have great ideas can still play the game if they can get a big name to support their ideas - remember that no one should be investing in a bad plan just because there is security - and if its a good plan security wont be hard to obtain
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 01:36:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: SiJira
little guys that have great ideas can still play the game if they can get a big name to support their ideas - remember that no one should be investing in a bad plan just because there is security - and if its a good plan security wont be hard to obtain
If the "big name" is going to support their idea with providing 100% security for this, why should he even bother to let it go public in the form of an IPO?
If the "big name" trust the "little guy" enough to secure his venture 100%, why then not do all the venture capital himself,
the big name doesnt just trust anyone but those he feels wont ever make him have to cover the security - the big name might be able to cover half the ipos if they go scam but not all of them - do you just trust anyone?
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keeping all the rewards for himself since he is taking on all the risk. In so doing killing off the "public" investment market.
big names can usually do things that make a lot more money than even good ipos can and they keep some of their money to do the those things
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I see no benifit as "big name" to risk my assests securing something 100% and then have to share the fincial gains with those that didnt put up security.
you might not - but consider this - your money isnt going anywhere unless the guy you support scams - if you really want to invest you just might grab it all or at least 50% since you will hear about it first
im not calling anyone a scammer - i pointed out that a scammer has no reason to like my proposal at all
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 01:57:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: SiJira
im not calling anyone a scammer - i pointed out that a scammer has no reason to like my proposal at all
I dont like your proposal at all, ergo I fit at least part of your definition of a scammer.
TBH, IMO your proposal would make it easier for a scammer, because then they only need to fool 1 person to gain public acceptance for their "plan". Its a lot easier to fool 1 person in private than it is to fool a bunch of people in public as far as im concerned.
dont take it personally i play the devils advocate sometimes too
if you can fool someone like dark shikari or chribba with constant work and audits of your isk then have fun
even if you did fool someone so huge this proposal allows the average guy with only a billion in his pocket and a yarr to his name to keep investing
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I also find it telling that none of the "big names" have so far bothered to acknowledge this thread. While by scanning other threads in MD they have been active since you started this one.
so how can a scammer get past this?
a scammer can have an alt several years old that is very active on the forums and has helped dozens or hundreds of people in game and out and has the general trust of the community and have this alt vouch for his big scam - he still loses because once that big name scams it isnt coming back and as eve gets older the age and activity of a character requirements will become larger
a scammer can convince an eve guru of his good intentions with constant honest playing and then he can scam for one or two billion isk - an amount that should be the maximum for any new ipo
a scammer can put in the work just like a regular ipo and after a few successesful ipos he can scam 20 billion - thats a lot of work for a measly 20 billion especially since people would expect a very good plan for that much
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 02:32:00 -
[9]
Edited by: SiJira on 05/01/2008 02:33:31
Originally by: FastLearner
Capitlaisation (with a z for our American friends I guess) is your friend. I've used Chribba a few times on transactions (buying two motherships) and his service was always prompt and professional. Why you name him and DS as examples of trustworthy people remaibns, however, a mstery to me.
Until (and unless) you identify how "trust-worthy" people are defined you have about zero chance of getting any credibilty (even IF you learn how to use the shift key to obtain capital letters in your posts).
The reason I ONLY have 170 million deposited is because I've gone out of my way to avoid accepting more, No doubt the same applies to ther other well-known financial institutios such as EBank and Ionia.
those are at the top of the trustyworthy names list - you would be on the list somewhere
i dont expect any credibility - im not here to talk about successful ipos like your own
this is about using everyones best attributes to provide the switch to open the floodgates of isk to the market environment - securing ipos allows more isk to flow into and around the market - when this happens more isk will go to you - to ebank - to traders - less isk to scammers if everyone adheres to reason instead of emotion
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 02:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Carpii Diem
I do not see how security will be an end all to scamming. If someone needs 5 billion for an IPO and they have to put up the 5 billion, why do they even bother dealing with the public and having to give out profits?
it might be an item that changes in price a lot and they would rather not deal with selling and buying it again
if they dont have experience dealing with a billion they shouldnt go near 5 billion - another option is that a trusted name will pay isk to the investors in the event that they run - if that doesnt happen there is no wasted isk anywhere - if you dont have any rich players trust or collateral of your own you dont deserve to be near public isk
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Usually it seems that those that start out small just want to issue a bigger IPO at a later date. Inorder so they want people to know them and more importantly trust them.
if the issuer doesn't want to go through the hassle to sell the collateral for the needed capital because they think they will need the items used as collateral at a later date.
exactly - dont forget that a battleship wont be built on trust - an ipo that will get isk to buy one will and the only collateral there is your reputation - if your reputation is weak and you have a bad plan no one with a lot of isk and a sane mind will provide security for you anyways
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Plus there is always the possibility of the person holding the ISK being in on the scam.
there are a limited number of characters that are big enough to provide security - if the pay is made from the security holders wallet there is no scam - and if it doesnt that big name can never provide security again
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 02:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: FastLearner
The best returns on the marklet are provided by people who have competence - not by people who have their assets secured. Possibly the three largest active investment sinks are Fury Bank, FRPB and EBank - all of whom probably control over 100 billion of player ISK. And none of them ahve their assets secured with a thrid party - yet all can get more ISK easily.
they all have huge reputations - and ebank isnt based on one reputation alone Quote:
Trust is earned by demonstrating you're trust-worthy, not by acting in some sterile environemnt where trust is irrelevant.
good reporting timely dividend payments and solutions to problems that arise will all prove that people are trustworthy
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 02:53:00 -
[12]
Originally by: FastLearner
That some people are gullible enough to invest in fairly obvious scams is amusing - but hardly a major issue for the market at large. If the terminally stupid and the terminally greedy lose some ISK becaus of their failings then I'm certianly losing no sleep over it.
I'll be online with Fury Banker for the next hour or so in case I'm lucky enough that anyone wants to withdraw because I make posts after a few beers.
if there are more secure investments the market as a whole will grow faster and larger
every guy with only a billion from mission running that quits the md forever because of one scam is a possible depositor to your bank - you should care
im not attacking any previous ipos
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 03:30:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Monty Kvaran
Trying to eliminate high return investments helps no one, and there is always a tradeoff between risk and reward...
they wont be eliminated - they will be clearly unsecured and no one will leave the md because most of the isk they earned in the past 6 months is gone
and im way ahead of you on the other points
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 15:35:00 -
[14]
Edited by: SiJira on 05/01/2008 15:36:19
trustworthy people include a lot of people that are already running big ipos and are generally helpful
no one is trying to kill the unsecured ipos - but not everyone person needs to run an unsecure ipo to build up trust - if they have a solid plan to make money they can secure it and they wont need any more ipos after the first - most people have already realized that being secure gets your ipo sold out faster
to those who are against the idea - why dont you invest in all the high interest unsecure ipos at 8-20% and ill invest in all the secure ones at 6-10% and then we can compare notes when i get all my money back and you only get half
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.05 23:32:00 -
[15]
Edited by: SiJira on 05/01/2008 23:34:38
Edited by: SiJira on 05/01/2008 23:33:09
Originally by: Shadarle
The idea that people should only invest in secured IPO's is ludicrous.
why would anyone get that idea? risk vs reward means i dont mind taking a few percent less for full security
most people dont need to run multiple ipos or have some type of ipo running at all times so they wont care much about building up reputation - but those that do the security will have a better reputation for every ipo they secure by word or management of collateral - everyone wins because the security holder has a first pick on the ipo that is to be secured
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The choice between 6-10% secured and 11-20% unsecured is false.
i dont mind taking a 6% ipo when its secure because you can have 20% ipos and when a third of them scams im better off
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.06 13:33:00 -
[16]
to be against this idea is to actively support scamming
no where was it said that investments with no security and higher returns cant be offered
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.06 14:58:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Treelox
Originally by: SiJira
to be against this idea is to actively support scamming
Let me get this right, earlier in the thread you insinuated that I might be a scammer, and now your saying that I "actively support scamming"?
If you knew me at all you would be laughing at this point.
Anyways if your so in need to see this plan of yours work, I suggest you step up, and be the first "big name" to 100% underwrite the next "great idea" that comes along.
AKA money where your mouth is.
i dont hold enough reputation and it certainly wouldnt be the first time a big name has provided security for someone else
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.06 16:06:00 -
[18]
the point is that people that have not enough or no assets to put up for collateral might not realize that they have publicly respected friends who can put up their promise of repayment in case of wrongdoing as collateral
those who really dont know anyone or have very little but have a great idea need to know where to go to put up some collateral or have a rich friend put up a blueprint for collateral
if you were someone who has never come to the eve forums before and then you came to the market discussion and were smart enough to know you need more than your promise and a good plan to start an ipo - would you be able to find fury-ebank-bmbe and know they provide collateral - without trying to read most posts in the first two pages of the md first? thats a lot of reading if you wouldnt
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.07 01:15:00 -
[19]
make it easier to get security for those who dont know they can even get it
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.07 02:00:00 -
[20]
Edited by: SiJira on 07/01/2008 02:04:56
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Even some of the aforementioned tools have been used successfully by scammers in the past, and more tools would only make it easier.
a link for those that do have collateral to show them where to put it for security would help scammers?
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.07 02:09:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: SiJira
Edited by: SiJira on 07/01/2008 02:02:00
Edited by: SiJira on 07/01/2008 02:01:28
Originally by: Daeva Vios
Even some of the aforementioned tools have been used successfully by scammers in the past, and more tools would only make it easier.
a link for those that do have collateral to show them where to put it for security would help scammers?
A link where? People don't read the stickied stuff anyhow.
As soon as they post their IPO/Bond people will ask if they have security if people think they need it thus it will be handled then. This is how it works now and it works just fine.
lets make it work better because i havent noticed any changes regarding people sending isk as soon as they can unless the op strictly states that its just a discussion
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.07 02:23:00 -
[22]
Edited by: SiJira on 07/01/2008 02:23:13
Originally by: Shadarle
If people send money that is their own concern. If they treat their money in this manner why do you care if they get burned?
if its made easier to find secure investments because people have an easier time finding how to secure them then there is more isk in the general market community
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You remind me of another poster that has been absent as of late from these forums. Absent about as long as you've been here. I'll not name names, but I'm sure a few other people here may have a name popping into their head.
can you explain this quote because i cant tell who came before me if i wasnt there
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.07 02:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: Ricdic
I remember a person who once said "If you don't disclose shareholder names you are a scammer/poor business manager."
This is what I remembered as well 
who once said it? id like to meet them
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.07 02:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ricdic
Are we all scammers?
no but some of you have said before how you cant secure every ipo - your name can if you trust the people offering them
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.07 02:56:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Ricdic
Are we all scammers?
no but some of you have said before how you cant secure every ipo - your name can if you trust the people offering them
We don't want to! I am not putting my name behind anyone, especially not my money. If I want to put my money behind them I will buy out their entire IPO/Bond. If I am not willing to do that, then I may buy a few shares... but there is no way I will back their entire IPO's.
You are looking at this from the perspective of a person who wants 100% secure investments to put his money in without having to do any work yourself. From the perspective of a person who might be doing all the hard work for you I can tell you that I am not even remotely interested in providing you a risk free investment and taking all the risk myself.
ill do it when i can then
answer my other question
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.01.11 19:34:00 -
[26]
gambling it is then
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