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Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:09:00 - [31] Originally by: ISD Serathu Ashk 49-U6U, Querious Region The Interstellar Correspondents are receiving reports of a major fleet engagement involving at least one Titan class starship belonging to Evolution of the Band of Brothers alliance in the system 49-U6U, the sovereignty of which is held by Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate. It is rumoured that a Doomsday weapon has been fired twice however the number of ships lost in this conflict is not known. We will provide updates with more information as it is received. I don't believe leaving the location out would have detracted anything from the original article.
Kylegar Caldari Shadow Of The Light	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:11:00 - [32] Edited by: Kylegar on 06/01/2008 08:12:19 Edited by: Kylegar on 06/01/2008 08:11:46 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Matrixcvd Large scale fleet combat is unplayable, clearly devoid of any type of play experience which can be characterized as fun, and practically makes everyone want to quit the game before they realize there are no other internet spaceship games like this one. Phone your isp. Even though you might get good latency on a shooter or some sharded mmo with 60ish players max in the same instance trying to sync up almost a thousand players when isp like tiscali are actively fudging up the latency and bandwith for eve is nigh impossible. This is not CCP's fault its your isp for limiting its service to eve and other larger games. Didn't anyone notice that fleet combat really started to go crappy about the time the tiscali threads started showing up? If eve players got priority service then the latency issues would go away for the most part though even if every isp let eve get the lowest latency paths I still don't think we will ever see a lag free battle over 500ish players total. Its simply too much to expect with everyone scattered over the globe with the wildly different latencys that such a diverse spread of geographic position incurs. Why is there so many people that think that other players locations have to do with lag? FYI, It Doesnt. You are only getting information from the SERVER, therefore, other player's bandwidth/latenct/location on earth/anything has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the speeds or quality of the data you get from the server. The issue is, you have 800 people in system on a node that handles a few other constallations. That node (Read: its a server) has to track EVERYTHING about those players, position, shiptype, ammo they have in thier guns, thier skills so it can take into account damage, ETC. when you have 10 people, thats no big deal, 100, the Node (Its a server essentally) starts to bog down (not much). after you hit the 200 mark, it really starts having trouble. 800 people are going to crash the node, no doubt about it. Just think of all the data that has to be tracked between 800 people shooting at eachother. Then, find me a server that can handle 800 people. TQ is AMAZING in its ability to handle so many people, but, sometimes, technoligy just isnt there to handle such a massive fight. Not yet atleast. Also, there is multiple types of "Lag", FPS lag is watching a slideshow, its because your computer cant keep up with the ammount of ships/effects/lighting etc. Theres "Modual Lag", and thats The Server bogging down because of so much happening. Your computer is getting updates, and it is rendering the picture fine, but the updates dont contain any actuall updates, and thats because the server is having a hard time processing it. "RubberBanding" is due to latency, because the client is predicting where the rubberbanding object is, but the server is saying "wait, no, its over here" so the client puts it there. -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:14:00 - [33] Originally by: kanojo1969 This issue has absolutley NOTHING to do with the network. If you got the same number of people plugged directly into CCP's LAN it would do exactly the same. I think I just lost a few brain cells lmao. Latency is everything in any online game ever made. If part of your fleet has crappy latency then the server has to take extra time to sort it all out with client lag being the result. Add in that now most of the lagged out players are franticaly spamming modual buttons in frustration and it goes from bad to worse even quicker due to the server having to do a complete recalc of the grid and then the server rolls over and the node dies. WTS basic network theory. Also how do you know that 100 players plugged directly into the server would lag? Originally by: Richard Phallus Come live with the common idiot, it's more fun down here.
kanojo1969 Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:15:00 - [34] Originally by: Ungdall That little article is what I was referring to. Information like that instantly available to everyone including many who are hostile to both sides can make things difficult in many ways. God only knows what I'm allowed to say or what I'd be throttled for saying, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would prefer a total black-out on events like this till after they are done. If this was a real conflict, the reporters would have been held without trial or perhaps just shot on sight. That little article was posted 40 minutes AFTER your own alliance (using an alt, of course) reported exactly the same info on the forums. Please direct your nerdrage elsewhere.
Jennai The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:16:00 - [35] Originally by: Shreddog With 800 people in the same system fighting eachother inluding drones and ****, no wonder the node crashed. Thats ALLOT of data to process and transmitt to each player. Each action/position/speedchange/heading/etc the individual player does has to be transmitted to each of the other 800 players in the area. No MMORPG can support this at decent speeds. lag was terrible even when there were only 250 in local with no capitals. ISD shouldn't post news articles for battles in progress when there's a good chance that the node will die.
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:16:00 - [36] Edited by: Verite Rendition on 06/01/2008 08:19:49 Edited by: Verite Rendition on 06/01/2008 08:19:00 Matrixcvd, I think you're complaining to CCP about the wrong thing, you're complaining about the lag while thinking you're complaining about a news item. The fact that ISD had a news item ready for this so early is great. Usually news on a big battle is what, a week old? Here we got an announcement about a battle as the battle was going on and then a good writeup after the fact. It's unfortunate that ISD can't say "and then the node crashed" because they have to be in RP-mode, but that's about the only thing wrong with the articles posted today. It's nice to see these big battles getting exposure, so that the rest of the universe can figure out what that giant red blob on the map is. Edit: I'm not sure why anyone is complaining that ISD posted a mid-battle report. All of the players in this fight and most of 0.0 already knew about the battle going on before the article was posted, so I don't see it contributing to the load problem (if you were going to come, you were coming before the article was even posted). Similarly there wasn't anything in that post that BoB/Goon/RA/etc didn't already know that would be a strategic issue. I mean FFS, the EVE map already tells you there's a giant battle going on there because of the big red blob. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:19:00 - [37] /signed.. ffs at least WAIT TILL IT IS DECIDED before you put up neon sign inviting more people to an already overloaded cluster... bad bad form.. *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*
kanojo1969 Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:19:00 - [38] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: kanojo1969 This issue has absolutley NOTHING to do with the network. If you got the same number of people plugged directly into CCP's LAN it would do exactly the same. I think I just lost a few brain cells lmao. Latency is everything in any online game ever made. If part of your fleet has crappy latency then the server has to take extra time to sort it all out with client lag being the result. Add in that now most of the lagged out players are franticaly spamming modual buttons in frustration and it goes from bad to worse even quicker due to the server having to do a complete recalc of the grid and then the server rolls over and the node dies. WTS basic network theory. Also how do you know that 100 players plugged directly into the server would lag? I completed my Novell CNE qualification in 1993, and have worked in large commercial networks and ISPs for the last 14 years. You?
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:20:00 - [39] Not nearly as long but long enough to lol at forum credientials. Originally by: Richard Phallus Come live with the common idiot, it's more fun down here.

ISD Serathu Ashk ISD Interstellar Correspondents	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:21:00 - [40] Originally by: Verite Rendition Matrixcvd, I think you're complaining to CCP about the wrong thing, you're complaining about the lag while thinking you're complaining about a news item. The fact that ISD had a news item ready for this so early is great. Usually news on a big battle is what, a week old? Here we got an announcement about a battle as the battle was going on and then a good writeup after the fact. It's unfortunate that ISD can't say "and then the node crashed" because they have to be in RP-mode, but that's about the only thing wrong with the articles posted today. It's nice to see these big battles getting exposure, so that the rest of the universe can figure out what that giant red blob on the map is. Thank you! My job in IC is to bring about a situation where events that we see as news worthy that the players themselves create are covered as soon as possible. News should be fresh, dynamic and engaging - just like the events that it covers. Expect to see more of this. Serathu Ashk Vice Admiral, IC Interstellar Services Department \| [email protected] \|

Kylegar Caldari Shadow Of The Light	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:21:00 - [41] Edited by: Kylegar on 06/01/2008 08:22:33 Edited by: Kylegar on 06/01/2008 08:21:44 Originally by: Zeba Originally by: kanojo1969 This issue has absolutley NOTHING to do with the network. If you got the same number of people plugged directly into CCP's LAN it would do exactly the same. I think I just lost a few brain cells lmao. Latency is everything in any online game ever made. If part of your fleet has crappy latency then the server has to take extra time to sort it all out with client lag being the result. Add in that now most of the lagged out players are franticaly spamming modual buttons in frustration and it goes from bad to worse even quicker due to the server having to do a complete recalc of the grid and then the server rolls over and the node dies. WTS basic network theory. Also how do you know that 100 players plugged directly into the server would lag? Again, that has nothing to do with latency or the internet. The SERVER is having trouble handling so many people. Have you ever ran a Gameserver? For any game, any multiplayer Gameserver has to do the same tasks, keep track of ALL players connected, Handle ALL Interaction, and Update ALL the players of Every Other players actions. Thats ALOT of work. The processor load spikes through the roof, and, it lags. Its not because Person 23 has 56k or is downloading movies, because, it only effects that person, not the entire server. If the server doesnt get an update, it assumes your doing the same thing you were doing the last frame, because you havent told it you moved/shot/whatever. Quote: Also how do you know that 100 players plugged directly into the server would lag? In theroy, it would lag the server more because its getting updates that it has to process faster. WTS basic Gameserver theory -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:21:00 - [42] Originally by: kanojo1969 That little article was posted 40 minutes AFTER your own alliance (using an alt, of course) reported exactly the same info on the forums. Please direct your nerdrage elsewhere. because ofc everyone is shown EVERY THREAD IN COAD ON LOG IN :P *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*
Jennai The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:21:00 - [43] Originally by: Verite Rendition Edit: I'm not sure why anyone is complaining that ISD posted a mid-battle report. All of the players in this fight and most of 0.0 already knew about the battle going on before the article was posted, so I don't see it contributing to the load problem (if you were going to come, you were coming before the article was even posted). if they do this on a regular basis then they're gonna look pretty stupid when most of their articles end up being "and then the node crashed and someone reset standings to KOS because everyone hates them"
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:23:00 - [44] Edited by: Estephania on 06/01/2008 08:23:14 Ppl participate in fleet battles because they have no choice. Sov mechanics make it hard to wage territorial war with anything less than 400 pilots with a fair bunch of capitals; naturally, the defending side has no other option but to match the numbers or lose. Fleet battles never worked, never were fun, always were laggy as hell and in most cases the decisive factor was the good will of the lag monster. Until sov mechanics change pilots will have to attend black screen sessions or Eve sideshows to try to take or defend their space.
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:23:00 - [45] Originally by: ISD Serathu Ashk Expect to see more of this. expect alot more flaming if CCP insist on advertising ongoing battles to every otherwise uninvolved party.. when its over FINE. while its in progress keep your reporters off the battlefield and stop making a bad situation worse by proxy. *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*
Daqinson The Abyss Corporation Abyss Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:27:00 - [46] for those who were writing that the node should not crash with 500 people on it, and that it is an ISP problem, dont forget all of the pop up boxes we get saying stay away from jita with only 400ish people in it, and they are not all in close proximity and activating modules repeatedly. and 9:1?? geez I think bob needs to do some recruiting. ----------------
kanojo1969 Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:28:00 - [47] Originally by: Jennai if they do this on a regular basis then they're gonna look pretty stupid when most of their articles end up being "and then the node crashed and someone reset standings to KOS because everyone hates them" First goon post of the day that contains truth, not tears.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:32:00 - [48] Edited by: Zeba on 06/01/2008 08:34:10 You guys are so full of ** I'm simply amazed that you dare to post it. Eve is not a shooter server. Those have all sorts of built in sauards to keep lagging players from mucking it up for eveyone. Eve however is not* a shooter server. If player X dies or seems to drop out due to a disconnect then gang bonuses have to be recalced for everyone nad this is one of countless things that need to be updated. The server can handle this as far back as 2004 if sufficient resorces were preallocated to the nodes. Now what will muck up the server is hundreds of players are all sending info to the server at different speeds. It will appear to the server that x state is in effect when its really y state. then everyones packest come in againg with a totally differed state to be recalced this starts to strain the server past its limits and when the lag hits and everyone starts spamming modual buttons it simply puts too many variables into play to keep up. This has everything to due with latency not the servers raw power. Eve is run as a single world simulation that requires every simgle player to be synced up. No other gaming server has to do that on the scale eve has to handle. WTS Eve server theory. Originally by: Daqinson for those who were writing that the node should not crash with 500 people on it, and that it is an ISP problem, dont forget all of the pop up boxes we get saying stay away from jita with only 400ish people in it, and they are not all in close proximity and activating modules repeatedly. and 9:1?? geez I think bob needs to do some recruiting. Jita sucks because everyone and his trade alt is in the system constantly spamming the market for a refresh. If you don't realize the ginormous load that creates then you need to abandon this thread. Originally by: Richard Phallus Come live with the common idiot, it's more fun down here.
Kylegar Caldari Shadow Of The Light	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:35:00 - [49] Edited by: Kylegar on 06/01/2008 08:43:01 Edited by: Kylegar on 06/01/2008 08:38:02 Originally by: Zeba Eve is run as a single world simulation that requires every simgle player to be synced up. No other gaming server has to do that on the scale eve has to handle. WRONG. Why didnt the node crash today boot EVERYONE off TQ? Because TQ is a collection of MULTIPLE SHARDED Servers, Called...Guess it...Nodes. There is no way that One server box can handle 30k people at peak times. Quote: WTS Eve server theory. You might want to keep it. -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
kanojo1969 Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:42:00 - [50] Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 06/01/2008 08:34:10 Eve is not a shooter server. Those have all sorts of built in sa**uards to keep lagging players from mucking it up for eveyone. Eve however is not* a shooter server. If player X dies or seems to drop out due to a disconnect then gang bonuses have to be recalced for everyone nad this is one of countless things that need to be updated. The server can handle this as far back as 2004 if sufficient resorces were preallocated to the nodes. Now what will muck up the server is hundreds of players are all sending info to the server at different speeds. It will appear to the server that x state is in effect when its really y state. then everyones packest come in againg with a totally differed state to be recalced this starts to strain the server past its limits and when the lag hits and everyone starts spamming modual buttons it simply puts too many variables into play to keep up. This has everything to due with latency not the servers raw power. Eve is run as a single world simulation that requires every simgle player to be synced up. No other gaming server has to do that on the scale eve has to handle. Oh boy. You almost made sense, but I bolded the part where you leapt from sense to nonsense. It has nothing to do with latency. Everything else you say is correct. The server just can't handle it. Even so, lets just pretend for a moment that you are right, it's the internet's fault. In that case, CCP as just as culpable for advertising gameplay which is impossible. So, epic fleet battles are either impossible due to the internet (still pretending here) or due to CCP's server/code not being architected appropriately... Either way, CCP has a cheek advertising this game the way they do given current conditions. (and seeing as you know so much about the inner workings of the server....Devs should post with their mains)
cal nereus Hobos of War Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:44:00 - [51] Originally by: ISD Serathu Ashk Originally by: Ungdall I don't care about bad press from a terribly broken and hardly playable game, I'd just prefer if they didn't broadcast in real time information that could be in any way strategic. It wouldn't kill you to hold off till the fight is over. As the editor in chief of the Interstellar Correspondents and as the person who wrote the article, I'd just like to clarify something here. We're players who volunteer our time to write in-game news based on events that happen in the world of EVE. Although we're overseen by CCP and work within their framework, we're not CCP employees and are not paid to do this. Our objective is to bring news to players, we're not involved in advertising the game. The article that was produced during the conflict was based on information that was available to us at the time, that was in the public domain. All of what was written before the battle finished could be found in the forums. Afterwards, we interviewed both sides and produced the final article that you can now see. Continue what you're doing, Serathu, knowing that some of us appreciate you for your time, effort and interest. o7 --- Join BH-DL Skills
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:49:00 - [52] Edited by: Zeba on 06/01/2008 08:50:48 @kanojo. To a point yes moar raw power would help compensate for the need to do several recalcs before sending the state to the clients but latency is what causes the problems and even if CCP were to install the most bad arse server cluster known to man if everyone is sending data out of sync before it even gets to the server then it will still have to constantly do recalcs. Ex. You have 20/20 vision in each eye. But one eye sends data to your brain slighly slower or sporadicaly. Now try to draw a picture. Get the picture now? I guess the real question is can CCP afford to or is it even possible install the power needed to overcome that brick wall? Originally by: Richard Phallus Come live with the common idiot, it's more fun down here.
General Cane Federation of Synthetic Persons	Posted - 2008.01.06 08:52:00 - [53] holy shi... they advertised this ?! omg.. next time write "if you want to get disconnected and stuck 2 hours in a loading screen come to system XY ... and if you got luck and are in dont worry when your modules dont work"
Kylegar Caldari Shadow Of The Light	Posted - 2008.01.06 09:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 06/01/2008 08:50:48 Ex. You have 20/20 vision in each eye. But one eye sends data to your brain slighly slower or sporadicaly. Now try to draw a picture. Get the picture now? I guess the real question is can CCP afford to or is it even possible install the power needed to overcome that brick wall? You forget. Prediction. The server (and client) Assumes that you are doing the same thing until something tells it otherwise. If it takes 500ms for a client to tell the server it just activated its guns, then, during that 500ms, it assumes the guns are off. It doesnt "wait" for the client to tell the it what the client is doing. And thats where your entire argument falls flat. The server breaks for noone, It assumes that you are doing what you did the last second, even if you F1-F8ed, and you were on 56k and downloading stuff, that 10 seconds it takes for you to send your update, the server predicts that you are still doing what you did before, not shooting. And for your last question: More hardware may or may not fix it. Methinks its time to stop making the nodes stronger, and start optimizing the code. If data transfers are cleaner, or less data is being handled by the server, then they will lag less. Reduce load, reduce lag. -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.01.06 09:03:00 - [55] Originally by: General Cane hmm how do you write this? "and what is believed to be an unexplained solar event." oh... yeah well. But however nice to have news anyway Hehe. Come to the forums like everyone else. Tbqfh I have my own pet peeves with CCP over several issues but lag just isn't one of them. Originally by: Richard Phallus Come live with the common idiot, it's more fun down here.
kanojo1969 Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2008.01.06 09:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Zeba even if CCP were to install the most bad arse server cluster known to man Which they are in the process of doing. And I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be doing that if the problem was client latency. Personally, I believe that stackless python was a poor choice from day one; not just from a pure performance perspective, but also in that it seriously limits the number of genius-level brains available to look at problems. Compared to, say, C++. However, and I'm sure CCP has been banking on this since day one, Moore's law will save them, they probably only need this new server to last a year or so. CPU performance per dollar increases exponentially and their playerbase doesn't. Quid pro quo, etc...
LadyOfWrath Valhalla Navy Technical Institute	Posted - 2008.01.06 09:08:00 - [57] I would related the article being posted as it was during the fight the same as when CNN released information on a Special Forces op on national television causing half of that unit to be killed. Seriously WTF were you thinking. When i was in Iraq we had journalists but they were told strictly what they could and couldn't write about. Releasing information unwanted by the people engaged in a conflict does nothing but get people killed. Use you brain before you write something.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.01.06 09:15:00 - [58] Originally by: Kylegar You forget. Prediction. Prediction will have limited effect on lag for eve and could concievably make it much worse. Again this is not a shooter with only a few variables to consider from a small group of players between each packet. Originally by: Kylegar And for your last question: More hardware may or may not fix it. Methinks its time to stop making the nodes stronger, and start optimizing the code. If data transfers are cleaner, or less data is being handled by the server, then they will lag less. Reduce load, reduce lag. This assumes its completely the fault of the code. I don't beleive this is the case. Moar power will have the effect of reducing the time needed to do a relcalc and give a higher overhead to compensate for latency. However once you reach a certain point then yes the gains from moar power will be less than the cost efficiency of purchasing it. So yes it might give a 10% boost but if it bankrupts CCP in the procces then we all lose. Eh but we could argue all day I guess. Lord knows theres been enough threads about it. Originally by: Richard Phallus Come live with the common idiot, it's more fun down here.
Kylegar Caldari Shadow Of The Light	Posted - 2008.01.06 09:27:00 - [59] Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 06/01/2008 09:17:13 Originally by: Kylegar You forget. Prediction. Prediction will have limited effect on lag for eve and could concievably make it much worse. Again this is not a shooter with only a few variables to consider from a small group of players between each packet. Yea, but, by your theory, the server waits for the client to send an update. Prediction is everything in this enviorment, because it keeps you doing what you were doing before, rather than having to wait. Quote: Originally by: Kylegar And for your last question: More hardware may or may not fix it. Methinks its time to stop making the nodes stronger, and start optimizing the code. If data transfers are cleaner, or less data is being handled by the server, then they will lag less. Reduce load, reduce lag. This assumes its completely the fault of the code. I don't beleive this is the case. Moar power will have the effect of reducing the time needed to do a relcalc and give a higher overhead to compensate for latency. However once you reach a certain point then yes the gains from moar power will be less than the cost efficiency of purchasing it. So yes it might give a 10% boost but if it bankrupts CCP in the procces then we all lose. More hardware doesnt help when its doing more work than it has to. Quote: Eh but we could argue all day I guess. Lord knows theres been enough threads about it. Agreed, this is going to be my last post in this topic. -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.06 10:14:00 - [60] Me and a couple of thousand of Empire players support the action of of CCP to broadcast battle as this since it gives us a rare opportunity to see a Titan live, not to mention lots of Capitals in action. ( Will make sure to bring coke and popcorn next time). Best thing is that the pirate camps tends to freeze with pilots saying; (can¦t f*cking move...) when the horde of newbie ships, shuttles and pods makes their way to the said battle using autopilot. Making the journey so much safer. Thumbs up CCP! Yours Victor Forge

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