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Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.06 17:54:00 - [31] Edited by: Shevar on 06/01/2008 17:54:44 Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Formulka check the damage type of lasers and resists on most armor-tanking ships (most pvp ships) and compare again .... I never fully understood this whine, for Caldari,Gallente, and Amarr T2 ships EM certainly isnt their highest resist, you typically get to tear through any poor shield tanking person, which of course no one EVER mentions is pretty much the nano ship tank of choice since they dont armor tank.. and once you get to structure its exactly the same for everyone... Try again against t1 ships, nearly every tank setup uses EAM's to augment the silly 60% EM resistance which every ship already has. Also shield tanking isn't popular enough to change that, pretty much only caldari and t2 minmatar shield tank. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
The Djego Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.	Posted - 2008.01.06 17:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Fortuk Monmouth Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Originally by: bldyannoyed Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Originally by: bldyannoyed ... Please check your numbers. Arma has 9.33(3) turrets, mega 7. Mega cap use is 3.37=23.1, Arma cap use is 9.33(3)3.75=35... and 35/23.1 is a bit more than 1.5.... Now see fitting issues, arma will fail to fit full rack of MBt2 without fitting mods. Thinking about mwd makes you say lol. Not to mention you have a lot less fitting room compared to mega. Ok, in general, I can't disagree that Amarr Battleships are competitive, EM damage/fitting issues are there, but otherwise they would simply be too strong. Pulsearma = good. But laser ships such Omen, Maller, Prophecy, Zealot, Harbinger, Absolution quite simply just fail. Many people consider the Harbinger to be one of the best ships in the Amarr line up and one of the best BC's in game. The Absolution is an absolutely stunning ship. Jury is out on the Zealot, but i like so whatever. Omen and Maller have had issues from day one, as has the Prophecy. The point though is not the state of the ships NOW. Its what the ships, and more to the point the lasers, would look like after a flat 50% cap reduction and then the addition of a second ship bonus. If ships are aleady good WITH a cap use bonus what the hell are they gonna be like when that bonus is essentially free and they get another bonus on top. Absolution/Harbringer is absolutely stunning??? What? How? Medicore tank, medicore dps, 3 med slots, em damage... Armageddon, Abaddon, (Revelation, punisher) - are good as they are. Sure they don't need a boost, but the some other lasers ships need a boost. Imo: allow amarr to have a 100% close range crystal. Add a turret to Zealot and absolution, make the maller cap use bonus projectile damage and amarr would be fine imo. I got to that part and fell out of my chair laughing. Now Amarr have to have bonus to other races weapons to make them fair! ahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaa.......... ha Yeah this is quite funny and a old gag. But sadly it is actualy true. The Ship performs with Aks way better than with Lasers because you can outank nealy everthing in the Cruiser Class. You can put the extra Grid and Cap in the tank and still deal a moderate Damage compared to the possible Lasers you can fit because of its Powergridlimit. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:00:00 - [33] Originally by: Shevar pretty much only caldari and t2 minmatar shield tank. Not to mention em resistance on minmatar ships is high no matter if we talk shield or armor tank. Vaga starts off with 75%! Its the worst damagetype to shoot a vaga. Sleipnir 62.5 still worse off than with any other dmg type. Jaguar 75% again. Only on Vargur its pretty good with 25% but not that good.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:06:00 - [34] Originally by: Fortuk Monmouth I got to that part and fell out of my chair laughing. Now Amarr have to have bonus to other races weapons to make them fair! ahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahaa.......... ha But dude. Prophecy, Maller and Punisher just work better with acs. So how is this any funny? Its a disgrace and shows how much is wrong especially on the bc/cruiser level with amarr. On bs level we are pretty competitive if we ignore the apoc. If you haven't flown amarr ships at all or never used acs on amarr ships that have no dmg bonus maybe you shouldn't judge?
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:11:00 - [35] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Shevar pretty much only caldari and t2 minmatar shield tank. Not to mention em resistance on minmatar ships is high no matter if we talk shield or armor tank. Vaga starts off with 75%! Its the worst damagetype to shoot a vaga. Sleipnir 62.5 still worse off than with any other dmg type. Jaguar 75% again. Only on Vargur its pretty good with 25% but not that good. This is a baseless argument. Tech2 Amarr ships have a base of 90% shield explosive and 80% armor explosive. And what damage type does Matari tech2 ammo do most of? Explosive.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:19:00 - [36] Originally by: fkingfurious This is a baseless argument. Tech2 Amarr ships have a base of 90% shield explosive and 80% armor explosive. And what damage type does Matari tech2 ammo do most of? Explosive. Its not "baseless". Those resistances are fact. Go check ingame if you don't believe me. Now i didn't state minnie ships have it any better when facing amarr t2 tanks, did i? I just stated that em is not a good damage types against t2 minnie ships whether they are shield tanking or not. That was all. And yes i do fly minnie so i really have no interest to make them look better than they are. But this thread is not about minnies if you didn't notice.
Antodias North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:22:00 - [37] Originally by: romeoxjuliet Well YES. That's exactly it. I DON'T have 20+mill SP. I DON'T have level 5 in every single core and auxiliary skill relating to lasers, tank and cap that I can go make Amarr useful. So what your saying is that CCP should screw over all of the less-than-2-year-old players and their Amarrian-flying toons even MORE? You're saying that they shuold be even LESS effective, and thereby LESS able to get to that high-SP mark where they can be effective? Ridiculous. Flying Amarr does require a lot of support skills, there's no denying that. The problem with lowering cap needs is that at the high-end skillset level, lasers would pull ahead. Oh and you're exaggerating. I know plenty of people who do very well with lasers and aren't even fully specced in Amarr, and certainly aren't two year old characters. Some Amarr ships such as the Maller and Prophecy need to be made more compatible with lasers maybe, but not more powerful. ------------------------------------ Politically Correct since 2007. No really.
fkingfurious	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:25:00 - [38] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: fkingfurious This is a baseless argument. Tech2 Amarr ships have a base of 90% shield explosive and 80% armor explosive. And what damage type does Matari tech2 ammo do most of? Explosive. Its not "baseless". Those resistances are fact. Go check ingame if you don't believe me. Now i didn't state minnie ships have it any better when facing amarr t2 tanks, did i? I just stated that em is not a good damage types against t2 minnie ships whether they are shield tanking or not. That was all. And yes i do fly minnie so i really have no interest to make them look better than they are. But this thread is not about minnies if you didn't notice. What is your point then? Minnie suffer against tech2 amarr and vice versa. You were trying to make it sound like EM is unique in suffering against a tech2 ship when it clearly isnt.
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:41:00 - [39] Originally by: fkingfurious What is your point then? Minnie suffer against tech2 amarr and vice versa. Right, cos no sane minmatar pilot carries RF PP with him.. like ever. Yeah, explosive is as bad as EM is against its racial enemy, the problem with lasers(or more like with laserships) is that there's no effective workaround against that.
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:42:00 - [40] Originally by: fkingfurious Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: fkingfurious This is a baseless argument. Tech2 Amarr ships have a base of 90% shield explosive and 80% armor explosive. And what damage type does Matari tech2 ammo do most of? Explosive. Its not "baseless". Those resistances are fact. Go check ingame if you don't believe me. Now i didn't state minnie ships have it any better when facing amarr t2 tanks, did i? I just stated that em is not a good damage types against t2 minnie ships whether they are shield tanking or not. That was all. And yes i do fly minnie so i really have no interest to make them look better than they are. But this thread is not about minnies if you didn't notice. What is your point then? Minnie suffer against tech2 amarr and vice versa. You were trying to make it sound like EM is unique in suffering against a tech2 ship when it clearly isnt. 1. Minmatar has the highest armor racial t1 boost(60% -> 70%) 2. RF EMP, RF PP

Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:49:00 - [41] Edited by: Traeon on 06/01/2008 18:49:52 Quote: This is a baseless argument. Tech2 Amarr ships have a base of 90% shield explosive and 80% armor explosive. And what damage type does Matari tech2 ammo do most of? Explosive. Say hello to phased plasma which does 80% thermal damage iirc. It's by far the best ammo besides missiles to kill amarr t2 ships with. At least minmatar pilots have a workaround. Amarr faces even higher resistances and has no workaround at all.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:50:00 - [42] Originally by: fkingfurious What is your point then? Minnie suffer against tech2 amarr and vice versa. You were trying to make it sound like EM is unique in suffering against a tech2 ship when it clearly isnt. Now just go read the thread. Somebody mentioned how em is a good dmg type against t2 tanks and especially shield tanks. I just added that this is not the whole picture. And no your assumption on what i am trying to do is indeed baseless.
Traeon Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.01.06 18:52:00 - [43] Quote: Check the base PG of Amarr ships vs other races. You'll find they have lots more and have no real PG issues fitting MegaPulse or Mega Beam. Tachyons are hard to fit but theyre supposed to be. So what was your point? The high grid output on amarr ships is not free. They pay for it with low cpu.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:11:00 - [44] Originally by: Antodias Originally by: Rastigan Originally by: Formulka check the damage type of lasers and resists on most armor-tanking ships (most pvp ships) and compare again .... I never fully understood this whine, for Caldari,Gallente, and Amarr T2 ships EM certainly isnt their highest resist, you typically get to tear through any poor shield tanking person, which of course no one EVER mentions is pretty much the nano ship tank of choice since they dont armor tank.. and once you get to structure its exactly the same for everyone... This. You'll find that on the high end tankers, thermal and kenetic are the highest resists, and EM and explosive generally the lowest - regardless of shield or armour tank. On the low end armour omnitanks, EM could certainly be the highest, but honestly, the lasers will still melt through. I swear 90% of the whiners must never actually use lasers properly. 95% EM resists on t2 minmatar dc+eanm tanks is stupid. This needs to change. I mean cmon, no other damage type can realistically reach number like that in resists. And yeah there are ****loads of minmatar to face in pvp and many T2 ships. This needs a desperate fix! --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.06 19:13:00 - [45] Originally by: fkingfurious Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Shevar pretty much only caldari and t2 minmatar shield tank. Not to mention em resistance on minmatar ships is high no matter if we talk shield or armor tank. Vaga starts off with 75%! Its the worst damagetype to shoot a vaga. Sleipnir 62.5 still worse off than with any other dmg type. Jaguar 75% again. Only on Vargur its pretty good with 25% but not that good. This is a baseless argument. Tech2 Amarr ships have a base of 90% shield explosive and 80% armor explosive. And what damage type does Matari tech2 ammo do most of? Explosive. If by far most ships would be shield tanking with invul fields and minmatar couldn't switch damage in any way you would have a point. But that isn't the case. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Seru Maldus Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.07 02:43:00 - [46] Originally by: bldyannoyed This post is so much fail its not even funny. Just for this example, Kinetic would kill it fastest, then thermal, then EM, then Explosive. So thats Hybrids, then lasers, then projectiles. Oh noes. And i find it laughable that you can debunk my argument by saying that you cant look at single statistics in isolation and then come out with some bullship argument about how fast 1 damage type can kill one ship and treat it as a counter argument. Geez, who sht in your* cheerios? Every post I see from you in this thread is neither constructive nor is it non-aggressive. If you honestly believe you're going to post a "nerf this" thread without catching some good ole fire for it, then youre sadly mistaking and in for a ride. If you want to discuss nerfs, whatever, but I don't think its good discussion to snap every time someone disagrees. My contribution: My cap/lasers/popular amarr topics are fine. I win some, I lose some.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.07 02:57:00 - [47] Edited by: Goumindong on 07/01/2008 03:01:16 Originally by: Wu Jiun Edited by: Wu Jiun on 06/01/2008 18:56:07 Originally by: fkingfurious What is your point then? Minnie suffer against tech2 amarr and vice versa. You were trying to make it sound like EM is unique in suffering against a tech2 ship when it clearly isnt. Now just go read the thread. Somebody mentioned how em is a good dmg type against t2 tanks and especially shield tanks. I just added that this is not the whole picture. And no your assumption on what i am trying to do is indeed baseless. Also you are the one who completely ignored the fact that well at least as a minnie you can change your ammo type and deal more thermal or even a bit of em dmg. This does have a lot of drawbacks like its only t1 ammo and emp still has lots of exp dmg but it rather look like you are trying to make it look one sided here to be honest. So is explosive, so its kind-of a moot point. ed: Also, long range lasers on an Abaddon gain about 13.6% DPS* over a hyperion in exchange for 35km of range. Which is pretty damn big, not even ignoring the whole cap thing. *If you dont know why this is true, you probably should, or shouldnt be posting in threads like this.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 03:13:00 - [48] Long range amarr guns pay for the higher DPS with shorter range and FITTING, something you neglected to mention. A mega can fit mwd, 7 425 IIs, without a single RCU, in order to fit mwd+full rack of tachyons all amarr BS need 2 RCU IIs. This is in addition to the massive cap use. And your geddon vs mega comparison was blatant lie. Or did you forget the geddon has an rof bonus to get those dps figures. It uses over 50% more cap/s than the mega to fire guns. Not to mention all amarr ships have worse fitting than their gallente counterparts, in addition to suffering downsizing problems.
Sonorra Baki Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.07 03:35:00 - [49] So OP is arguing that amarr is fine, based on fictional numbers from a 3rd party program, while calculating with a made-up freak bonus? As a counter argument I then declare: Caldari is fine in PvP, cause if you increased their DPS by 43% it would be too strong. This may not be work safe -Capsicum
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2008.01.07 03:36:00 - [50] Quote: Ignoring the damage type that lasers are limited to, which isnt a problem of lasers but of Eve mechanics, the lasers give a very good account of themselves, particualrly against hybrids as the cap use of the lasers isn't a LOT bigger than the cap use of the hybrids. The problem come sin when you start imaging a Geddon with 5% RoF and damage, the Abadonn with no cap issues at all. Maller's with their current resists bonus and an rof bonus, Harbingers swapping their cap use for armor resists, Prophs swapping Cap use for optimal range or something. IMO there are too many Amarr ships that would simly be too powerfull with 2 bonuses AND an aritrary cap reduction to lasers, especially in long range combat as Tachyons and mega beams are massively powerfull. A Tachadonn with no cap issues is a scary thought. Well to address one point, there is nothing saying the added bonus after removing the cap bonus has to be damage. It could be 7.5% turret tracking, nos/neut range or drone bay bonus. You could add bonuses that help versatility rather than specialization. You mention an abaddon loaded with tachs, it's not really that scary because you need 2 RCU's to fit a rack of tachs along with anything resembling a tank as well as a MWD. I'm not sure I really see a serious balance issue here, maybe you can elaborate more? -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."

Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 03:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Gamesguy Long range amarr guns pay for the higher DPS with shorter range and FITTING, something you neglected to mention. A mega can fit mwd, 7 425 IIs, without a single RCU, in order to fit mwd+full rack of tachyons all amarr BS need 2 RCU IIs. This is in addition to the massive cap use. And your geddon vs mega comparison was blatant lie. Or did you forget the geddon has an rof bonus to get those dps figures. It uses over 50% more cap/s than the mega to fire guns. Not to mention all amarr ships have worse fitting than their gallente counterparts, in addition to suffering downsizing problems. Tachs, I think, are meant to be hard to fit. They're oversized guns FFS. Tachyon lasers have have a higher damage mod than neutron blasters - and the ammo has the same amount of damage (of different types). And before you whine about the damage types... don't. I've already sparred with you guys once about it, and all I got out of it was that you (plural) refused to acknowledge the situations where EM damage was the appropriate damage type. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 03:40:00 - [52] Originally by: Sonorra Baki So OP is arguing that amarr is fine, based on fictional numbers from a 3rd party program, while calculating with a made-up freak bonus? As a counter argument I then declare: Caldari is fine in PvP, cause if you increased their DPS by 43% it would be too strong. I doubt he's arguing that Amarr is fine... at least, if he is, I missed it. I think he is arguing that a 50% reduction in capacitor would be wtfimba. -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.07 03:47:00 - [53] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 95% EM resists on t2 minmatar dc+eanm tanks is stupid. This needs to change. I mean cmon, no other damage type can realistically reach number like that in resists. And yeah there are ****loads of minmatar to face in pvp and many T2 ships. This needs a desperate fix! Fine. Give us more kinetic resist so we don't get bloody owned by everyone and their dog who uses kinetic (Gallente, Caldari, Minmatar T2 ammo). I mean, have you actually tried armour tanking a T2 Minmatar ship with two resist holes? It's horrible. The discussion about Minmatar T2 + EANM tanks is silly, they suck in a horrible fashion vs everything that isn't Amarr. The only thing Minmatar T2 shield resists are good at is shield tanking, where they have very balanced resists across the board barring the kinetic hole (which you can fix with a single rig). Rifters!
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.07 03:55:00 - [54] Originally by: Wu Jiun Vaga starts off with 75%! Its the worst damagetype to shoot a vaga. On the other hand, if we talk about actual guns, you do not really want to shoot a Vaga with things like medium blasters, because you do about 0 DPS to it. Lasers, on the other hand, do inflict DPS. They're clearly imba because of the infinite damage advantage over blasters, really. Rifters!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 04:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Liang Nuren Tachs, I think, are meant to be hard to fit. They're oversized guns FFS. Tachyon lasers have have a higher damage mod than neutron blasters - and the ammo has the same amount of damage (of different types). Tachyon lasers most certainly do not outdps neutron blasters. Damage mod doesnt mean **, long range weapons are supposed to have higher alpha, for example 1400mm arty. Tachyons pay for their alpha/dps/tracking with incredibly **** fitting requirements, and shorter range. Now remind me again why it takes a ****** amount of cap to fire them? Gouming has a perfect example. Tachyons on an abaddon only deals like 13% more dps than a hyperion, yet it has 36km less optimal range in addition to using 4-5 times as much cap, as well as using 2 RCUs to fit. Quote: And before you whine about the damage types... don't. I've already sparred with you guys once about it, and all I got out of it was that you (plural) refused to acknowledge the situations where EM damage was the appropriate damage type. -Liang The only time EM is good is vs invul tanked non-t2 minmatar ships, so in other words, about 5% of the ships you ever face in combat.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.07 04:08:00 - [56] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Wu Jiun Vaga starts off with 75%! Its the worst damagetype to shoot a vaga. On the other hand, if we talk about actual guns, you do not really want to shoot a Vaga with things like medium blasters, because you do about 0 DPS to it. Lasers, on the other hand, do inflict DPS. They're clearly imba because of the infinite damage advantage over blasters, really. Medium blasters on a deimos will do more to a vaga than pulse lasers on a zealot.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 04:23:00 - [57] Originally by: Gamesguy Gouming has a perfect example. Tachyons on an abaddon only deals like 13% more dps than a hyperion, yet it has 36km less optimal range in addition to using 4-5 times as much cap, as well as using 2 RCUs to fit. Quote: The only time EM is good is vs invul tanked non-t2 minmatar ships, so in other words, about 5% of the ships you ever face in combat. So you mean... about half of the ships in combat these days. Like Drakes, Ravens, Maelstroms, Cyclones, Hurricanes, Myrmidons, Ishtars, Curses, etc? -Liang -- Originally by: "QProQ" When they said to put 'stabs on your 'cane, they meant GYROSTABS!
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.07 04:26:00 - [58] Originally by: Gamesguy Medium blasters on a deimos will do more to a vaga than pulse lasers on a zealot. Possible due to the 50% bonus per level the Deimos gets to falloff, but would have to see it to be sure. I was more reffering to the situation with T1 ships where, without any range bonuses in the discussion, blasters utterly fail at reaching a decent 18km range, while lasers on a say, Harbringer, do just fine. Rifters!
Ariel Dawn Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.07 04:50:00 - [59] Those of you saying that Minmatar armor resists are crazy seem to not realise that the only T2 Minmatar armor tanking ships are the Wolf (rarely flown in favour of the Jaguar), and the Muninn (usually untanked arty setups as Rupture does almost the same at a far cheaper price in close range). Every other T2 minmatar ship with resistance bonuses is shield tanked. Furthurmore, T2 Amarr ships always have a thermal hardener as pretty much their first module fitted. RF PP is easily nullified. Also, against omni-tanks where the % resists are about the same across all four damage types, Minmatar ships have the lowest DPS. Most minmatar ships have dual damage bonuses yet lose to Amarr/Gallente ships with a single damage bonus. Punisher/Maller/Prophecy use ACs not because lasers are terrible, but because they can concentrate all their capacitor on tanking by using the low-DPS capless weapons. All have excellent tanks and are useful in PvP.
Aerin Cloudfayr Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.01.07 05:04:00 - [60] okok this is kinda hauling this back to the OP here, but with Amarr ship V you're perfectly able to tank and gank at the same with a cap mod or two - (sadly, the "or two" part) if you deign to use Standard Crystals. Damage yes, not the worlds' best damage, but damage nonetheless. Removing the Ship 50% reduction bonus and shunting it to base laser cap usage would be very nice, but any less than this and you effectively screw Amarr over again. More than this, and we start to bastardise laser setups. Lasers are great (once skilled up), but once you start to get greedy on your DPS, you start to Cookie Monster your cap regardless of skills. imho this is balanced somewhat. Incredibly harsh to starting players though.



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