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sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:15:00 - [31] Edited by: sesanti on 07/01/2008 15:17:14 Edited by: sesanti on 07/01/2008 15:16:24 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/01/2008 15:08:02 I'm not talking about lag reimbursements. but if you loose your char or similar severe things like that, like bans etc. without seing all the evidence and being allowed to debate it with ccp without censorship, regardless of the EULA it's ccp's responsibility to protect your investment or reimburse you fully, they should be taken to court immediately if they refuse. there is no argument good enough to deny this responsibiliy especially in an mmo. what if someone went on your bank account and transferred all your rl money to a different account just for spite. (or biomassed your main char to take an eve example). if there was no reimbursement of your lifelong investement regardless of how it happened, then obviously something must be done. we live in a democracy afterall, not a dictatorship. and eventhough ccp might behave like one at times, being both the judge jury and executioner and not showing any fragment of evidence whatsoever for some of the things they do, there's this thing called _the real world_ that can come and kick their ass if they get out of line and ppl get fed up with it and actually seize their personal power now you begin to see why they need to change their eula or they'll be dragged to court eventually _and loose_. untill it's changed it's a matter of _when_ not if. So basically you delete your char when drunk. Unlike the guy who was given back his, CCP can't give you back your char. You ask them for logs or whatever. They won't give them to you because they can't reveal inside info. You go to a law firm. You sue them. For a char. In an internet game of pew-pew. Nice. What should we do if we walk down the street and someone ... oh my ... stare at us... heaven forbid ! I don't think CCP will get sued for not reimbursing a ship or banning a character. It's their game and their rules about banning. Or whatever. Anyone willing to go to court for something like that is an opportunist and should lose and in turn get sued by CCP. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:17:00 - [32] I really like the "friendly warning." And who are you that anyone should care or listen to what you have to say? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:18:00 - [33] Originally by: Piracier After writing my petition on 18.12 i have received the answer few days later. You got a reply? Ive been waiting 2 weeks for a reply, consider yourself lucky that they even bothered to look. Originally by: Ian Holloway Smooth as a cashmere codpiece
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:20:00 - [34] Originally by: sesanti Edited by: sesanti on 07/01/2008 15:16:24 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/01/2008 15:08:02 I'm not talking about lag reimbursements. but if you loose your char or similar severe things like that, like bans etc. without seing all the evidence and being allowed to debate it with ccp without censorship, regardless of the EULA it's ccp's responsibility to protect your investment or reimburse you fully, they should be taken to court immediately if they refuse. there is no argument good enough to deny this responsibiliy especially in an mmo. what if someone went on your bank account and transferred all your rl money to a different account just for spite. (or biomassed your main char to take an eve example). if there was no reimbursement of your lifelong investement regardless of how it happened, then obviously something must be done. we live in a democracy afterall, not a dictatorship. and eventhough ccp might behave like one at times, being both the judge jury and executioner and not showing any fragment of evidence whatsoever for some of the things they do, there's this thing called _the real world_ that can come and kick their ass if they get out of line and ppl get fed up with it and actually seize their personal power now you begin to see why they need to change their eula or they'll be dragged to court eventually _and loose_. untill it's changed it's a matter of _when_ not if. So basically you delete your char when drunk. Unlike the guy who was given back his, CCP can't give you back your char. You ask them for logs or whatever. They won't give them to you because they can't reveal inside info. You go to a law firm. You sue them. For a char. In an internet game of pew-pew. Nice. What should we do if we walk down the street and someone ... oh my ... stare at us... heaven forbid ! I don't think CCP will get sued for not reimbursing a ship or banning a character. It's their game and their rules about banning. Or whatever. no, if such were to be the case, i would sue them for the investment in time and rl money that that character would represent. as to the particular scenario: ccp can't discern between: a) another person did it b) an angry ex-girlfriend did it etc. therefore reimbursement or sufficient locking mechanisms to protect aforementioned investment has to exist regardless of the eula: they can write all the legal circular logic crap in the eula they want to make you believe you can't do nothing about it, but when it comes down to it, if you were to try, you actually could.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:27:00 - [35] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/01/2008 15:31:21 Originally by: An Anarchyyt I really like the "friendly warning." And who are you that anyone should care or listen to what you have to say? i spoke of real life things like reimbursement of investment of all the time you spent in eve if something were to happen to that investment due to foul play or mistakes made, and the likes. not of the "i lost a ship reimburse me" type of things. therefore: how dare you sit on your internet char and belittle me in real life. are you completely clueless that this is not reality, but an internet spaceship game, and that there are real people with real lives behind the characters, some quite a bit different than you might suspect. and are you clueless that what i was referring to was _real life_ court settlements, legal documents and so forth. I deserve as much appreciation and respect as anyone else when they open their mouth, and how dare you think otherwise! that is completely unacceptable!
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:45:00 - [36] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 07/01/2008 15:46:24 Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 07/01/2008 15:45:35 I don't even understand what you just said, but it sounded pretty pathetic. But I do applaud your patheticness, it takes time and dedication to become that worthlessly stupid. Frankly, I would love to see your law suit as I would enjoy the incredibly large amount of real-life ridicule it would get you. And hopefully a ban from all MMOs, as who wants to let frivalous lawsuit guy play, when he might sue them too? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.07 15:58:00 - [37] Originally by: 7shining7one7 no, if such were to be the case, i would sue them for the investment in time and rl money that that character would represent. as to the particular scenario: ccp can't discern between: a) another person did it b) an angry ex-girlfriend did it etc. therefore reimbursement or sufficient locking mechanisms to protect aforementioned investment has to exist regardless of the eula: Said protection does exist - your username and password, and the 10 or so hour delay before you can actually delete a character. If you give out your username or password, a violation of the EULA, then CCP is not responsible for the consequences. Otherwise, you could re-wire your computer's power supply into a Taser and then sue Dell when you electrocute yourself. Quote: they can write all the legal circular logic crap in the eula they want to make you believe you can't do nothing about it, but when it comes down to it, if you were to try, you actually could. Tell me how that works out for you. ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.01.07 16:12:00 - [38] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 07/01/2008 15:46:24 Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 07/01/2008 15:45:35 I don't even understand what you just said, but it sounded pretty pathetic. But I do applaud your patheticness, it takes time and dedication to become that worthlessly stupid. Frankly, I would love to see your law suit as I would enjoy the incredibly large amount of real-life ridicule it would get you. And hopefully a ban from all MMOs, as who wants to let frivalous lawsuit guy play, when he might sue them too? you must suffer from a spike of stupidity right now, cause you seem to have failed to see that i have never had a need for reimbursement of any kind.
ry ry StateCorp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:04:00 - [39] i can't work out if you're a brilliantly conceived troll or not. on the off-chance that you are being serious, you should probably delete you character and then take CCP to court over it. it'd be a ground-breaking test case, and a glorious victory when a judge forced them to give your stuff back. i'll even give you a lift to the courtroom if you like. *again.
Titus Lewis	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:06:00 - [40] This whole thread is kinda dumb.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:13:00 - [41] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/01/2008 17:15:08 Originally by: ry ry i can't work out if you're a brilliantly conceived troll or not. it's funny i was thinking the same thing about you. (the thread today where you trivialized internet vigilante's aswell as trivializing serial killer incidents, which inevitably got the post deleted) it might be hard for you with your particular outlook on society and people in general (that you have illustrated in other posts) to wrap your head around this; but i wish the best for all and stand by personal power, freedom and liberty, which is why, eventhough i have not personally had the need for reimbursements of any kind, not even due to lag/desynch, i for the protection of others state the case that ccp should be more informative about their actions for improved customer relations and to _avoid_ lawsuits. since obviously years of consistent dedication and payments to the investment that a character/characters in eve in fact is, should obviously be reimburseable within the game, foul play or not. and that bans and similar types of moderation that similarly reduces this investments useability should be done with information and liberty of the user so that a beneficial compromise can be made in the situations. on the offshot that your post wasn't completely sarcastic i thank you for the well meaning words and thoughts.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:13:00 - [42] Originally by: 7shining7one7 tarminic have you ever heard of someone using your ip that they got off vent or similar to hack you and use various tools to steal your username (logfile) and password (keylogger or more advanced meassures). It's your responsibility to keep your computer secure. No one forces you to join a TS server, and a keylogger cannot be placed on your computer if you have the appropriate security measures in place. In addition CCP regularly warns users that Account Sharing is a violation of the EULA and tells people to NEVER give out their username or password for any reason. When it comes down to it, CCP provides you with appropriate measure to protect your account - choosing not to follow them, for any reason, means that the burden is on you to keep your information secure. Quote: password protection and 10 hours before char deletion is a joke to protect several years worth of investments in real life money, time and dedication. a main char should have ability to be locked for longer periods of time than just 10 hours, and should certainly be reimburseable if deleted by accident or through maliscious intent. oh and try contacting ccp off an email that is in no way affiliated with your account, asking for another account to be temporarily locked.. and see how they react to that.. a) they might think ur just trying to prevent a guy in a capital ship from coming to an imminent battle b) you might get lucky and they will actually temporarily disable the account. Except you can just include all of your actual account information, they can verify from said e-mail that you are the actual account holder. Quote: that aside, your comments are that of the usual trolling you do when your bored. a fact that you have testified to yourself. Ad hominum attacks do not aid whatever argument you're trying to make, sorry. ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:22:00 - [43] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/01/2008 17:25:12 tarminic i seriously don't want to get into a debate about if you troll or not.. i think doing an eve search on you would reveal that in spades.. the arcade-eve-version contribution aside, you do tend to troll some people quite a bit, but i'm sure your a nice guy, and i'm sure we could have a beer and a good talk irl, cause the way some people behave in this forum is not allways who we really are, and i'm sure that's the case with you aswell. regardless of personal security on the computer, all the data concerning the characters are stored on the server, and with years of dedication in money and time, to simply say "too bad" is unacceptable and won't hold in court either if it comes to that tbqh. if you are capable of taking them to court over something like this, you'll probably win with 90% probability (by winning meaning either financial reimbursement or ingame recreation of the char), regardless of thei EULA, which is just there to make you think you can't do anything as a consumer but kiss ccp's ass. i love ccp and eve, but if someone screws me over they are not going to get away with it. and again i have never myself had need for a reimbursement, but i strike a punch for everyone who has, and say that ccp should be a) much more informative and willing to debate the matter at hand, and b) should definately protect the characters themselves vehemently on the behalf of the consumer, in the form of character recreation, more extensive protection locks and so forth.
ForceM Gallente POS Builder Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:32:00 - [44] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 07/01/2008 17:25:57 Tarminic i seriously don't want to get into a debate about if you troll or not.. i think doing an eve search on you would reveal that in spades.. I would not go into a debate with him either .. not with your statements. His comments are perfectly valid. BTW tarminic ... i seen a few of your comments today .. you aplying for GM or what? :) -----
kanojo1969 Friendship 7 Corporation STYX.	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:39:00 - [45] meh. for an event such as a nodecrash, all ships lost should simply be reimbursed automatically without even needing petitions. It's not like it costs them anything, and this is just about the only situation where CCP cannot possibly claim they can't tell from logs if there was a problem. as for court cases, well... i suspect in some countries and with some very clever representation, it might be possible to equate in-game assets with RL loss, but tbqfh if you can afford the lawyers to do that then you should be out f*king a trophy chick not playing some internet spaceship game. as with all other commercial endeavours, CCP get away with a fair bit due to being the only game in town. without a competitor to lose customers to, they are pretty well insulated from the effects of poor GM decisions. That's about it. ------------------------------------------------- Sig Heil*
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:39:00 - [46] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Tarminic i seriously don't want to get into a debate about if you troll or not.. i think doing an eve search on you would reveal that in spades.. the arcade-eve-version contribution aside, you do tend to troll some people quite a bit, but i'm sure your a nice guy, and i'm sure we could have a beer and a good talk irl, cause the way some people behave in this forum is not allways who we really are, and i'm sure that's the case with you aswell. I think your confusing Trolling with expressing an opinion in a less-than-kind way, which I am guilty of on occasion despite my best efforts. Originally by: ForceM BTW tarminic ... i seen a few of your comments today .. you aplying for GM or what? :) Some days I'm just altruistic. ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
Earl Black	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:40:00 - [47] I have used the petition system and been happy with the results, but there will always be some unhappy with their reply. Strange they can check the logs to catch black-ops ships misusing there role, but not show when you lose a ship, I have been outside the station taking damage with rats in the overview many AU's away unable to dock as my ship is not where it appears to be. Do these logs really not show anything or is it a blanket statement to avoid replacing a players ship, there are strange bugs, like launching drones and then seeing them 30km away instantly. Some consistency with their policy wouldn't go a miss, its a hard job and thankless.
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:43:00 - [48] Originally by: 7shining7one7 if you are capable of taking them to court over something like this, you'll probably win with 90% probability (by winning meaning either financial reimbursement or ingame recreation of the char), regardless of the EULA, which is just there to make you think you can't do anything as a consumer but kiss ccp's ass. Yes, I do understand the EULA probably does not hold any legal ground if taken to court. Yet, what makes you so knowledgeable in the subject enough to state you can win, and "with 90% probability" ??? In the end it all comes down to a guy and its own interpretation of the situation, so there's no "90% probability" statistic at all. Anyway going back to the GM staff which was the original purpose of this thread, I believe they do a wonderful job despite some seriously annoying whiners. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Earl Black I have used the petition system and been happy with the results, but there will always be some unhappy with their reply. Strange they can check the logs to catch black-ops ships misusing there role, but not show when you lose a ship, I have been outside the station taking damage with rats in the overview many AU's away unable to dock as my ship is not where it appears to be. Do these logs really not show anything or is it a blanket statement to avoid replacing a players ship, there are strange bugs, like launching drones and then seeing them 30km away instantly. Some consistency with their policy wouldn't go a miss, its a hard job and thankless. I think that this may actually be a mis-interpretation here, honestly. Unfortunately I have never had the pleasure of receiving a "Our logs show nothing. NOTHING!" petition response, but I think that what they're saying here is that their logs don't show any valid reasons for a reimbursement. Remember that lag is not a valid reason, even lag caused by fleet battles/the Jita phenomenon, etc. That's just my personal, fanboi-exque theory though... ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
Zenst Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:56:00 - [50] Originally by: Piracier After writing my petition on 18.12 i have received the answer few days later. As always Blabla sorry for your loss, but the server logs dont indicate blabla. When i have asked if i could see the server log our policy does not blabla. My question is: Is there an organ or comitte which can gain access to these logs and can i or CCP get another party to look up these matter. Bcs until now i now hat has happend and CCP is like executer and controller himself. And it looks like that i have to accept everything they say to me without a possibility to see the prove? Have a nice day Well tell you what - ask for the logs they have that showed you died fairly as its not what the logs show its what they dont show that points to lag/issues and they will blindly ignore you.
Ironnight Caldari x13 When Fat Kids Attack	Posted - 2008.01.07 17:58:00 - [51] Just be happy that you get a responds, even if it doesnt make sense, my alt is being completely ignored, right now I am trying to see if I can trigger their language filter without getting banned, hey its something to do....... The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.07 18:02:00 - [52] Edited by: JamnOne on 07/01/2008 18:05:16 Piracier, Look at this way, if there is any chance lag could be involved on either end (yours or theirs) the ship will not be replaced/reimbursed. If you feel lag is not the issue then when you write the petitions explain why. If you think their response is in error request that it be escalated. Remember, when you request the escalation to include why you felt as if it needs to be reviewed. Most importantly, Remain Calm. They are people working on yours as well as others issues. Mistakes will happen. ________________________ Originally by: CCP Prism X Hah! Vengeance is sweet!
Shenko Minara	Posted - 2008.01.07 18:36:00 - [53] Originally by: Cameron Vayle Wow. And you still pay to play the game? Makes one wonder then who is "uneducated and quite frankly a joke". Probably you, you're the joke, right? Anyway, I pay with ISK, which I'm pretty sure is called 'paying'. So yeah I pay, only unlike you I don't use your mum's credit card. Oh and the other joke is your posting. Originally by: Cameron Vayle I know that if I am not happy with something and the people that are in charge refuse to do anything then I take my business elsewhere. Guess that has to do with common sense. Yeah okay, I'll just go join that other company that runs Eve much better. Thank goodness for your common sense - Oh wait... Originally by: Cameron Vayle 3) When you leave the game I don't think anyone will notice. Bye...bye haha, says the guy nobody knows and nobody would miss. Originally by: Tarminic In addition CCP regularly warns users that Account Sharing is a violation of the EULA Just as an aside, do you know what those EULAs are worth in a proper court of law? Less than that Cameron guy's posting (which is worthless). Originally by: Titus Lewis This whole thread is kinda dumb. Much like your posting!!!! -- 99% of Eve-o posters should stop posting. This probably includes me, but definitely includes you.
HoKu Ziare Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.01.07 18:46:00 - [54] Originally by: Piracier After writing my petition on 18.12 i have received the answer few days later. As always Blabla sorry for your loss, but the server logs dont indicate blabla. When i have asked if i could see the server log our policy does not blabla. <Stuff>...</Stuff> Your new to EvE arn't you Not being a jerk, just asking. Yeah um... Reimbursement petitions and Sever Logs are 2 of those in game mechanics that CCP has yet to fixà à but you must admit Trinity Does Look Nice.
Jhonen Senraedi Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:16:00 - [55] Just remember guys....may save you wasted petitions... In CCP's eyes... Lag is always user side...as are crashes,BSOD etc. No bugs exist and.... Desynch is a figment of the imagination!
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:31:00 - [56] Originally by: Jhonen Senraedi Just remember guys....may save you wasted petitions... In CCP's eyes... Lag is always user side...as are crashes,BSOD etc. No bugs exist and.... Desynch is a figment of the imagination! I love all posts like these. But I would like it if you could explain to me how a client crash, or a BSOD could be a server side problem? So what's broken with General Mills? Did you not send in enough UPCs and didn't get your toy? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:37:00 - [57] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Jhonen Senraedi Just remember guys....may save you wasted petitions... In CCP's eyes... Lag is always user side...as are crashes,BSOD etc. No bugs exist and.... Desynch is a figment of the imagination! I love all posts like these. But I would like it if you could explain to me how a client crash, or a BSOD could be a server side problem? So what's broken with General Mills? Did you not send in enough UPCs and didn't get your toy? You obviously don't understand sarcasm. Go crawl back to your hole. _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:55:00 - [58] Originally by: sesanti You obviously don't understand sarcasm. Go crawl back to your hole. I guess "sarcasm" is the best guise to use when it is noted that someone's post is full of idiocy. But then again, I applaud you for your witty, intelligent, and totally uniique response. You sure, are a master of the english language. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.07 19:56:00 - [59] Originally by: sesanti Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Jhonen Senraedi Just remember guys....may save you wasted petitions... In CCP's eyes... Lag is always user side...as are crashes,BSOD etc. No bugs exist and.... Desynch is a figment of the imagination! I love all posts like these. But I would like it if you could explain to me how a client crash, or a BSOD could be a server side problem? So what's broken with General Mills? Did you not send in enough UPCs and didn't get your toy? You obviously don't understand sarcasm. Go crawl back to your hole. No, I think that post was actually legit. Some things are too strange for fiction, and too absurd for sarcasm. ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
sesanti Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.07 22:09:00 - [60] Edited by: sesanti on 07/01/2008 22:09:30 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: sesanti You obviously don't understand sarcasm. Go crawl back to your hole. I guess "sarcasm" is the best guise to use when it is noted that someone's post is full of idiocy. But then again, I applaud you for your witty, intelligent, and totally uniique response. You sure, are a master of the english language. Isn't it funny when someone insults the other party about the level of english language when 1- english is not the only language in the world, 2- they commit stupid mistakes in their post, making their post "uniique"????? Again, I repeat, go crawl back to your hole before you make yourself more of an ass than you already are. Ciao.- _______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster - <I am a guy... don't mind the portrait>

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