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Amarr Pilots: our God awful Assault Frigs

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Maximus Krew	Posted - 2008.01.07 20:29:00 - [1] I recently started flying assault frigs to stray from covert ops, mostly on the impressed nature of the Ishkur and how powerful that little bastard is. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a niche in either model worth a damn. On the Retribution, the damage is decent but having one mid-slot gimps me from doing anything more than a small fleet op. Can't tackle, can't ewar... basically not worth taking it out when I have the option of the Omen or Maller. On the Vengeance, the fittings are nice, and the tank is very respectable for a frigate but the damage output is disgustingly low. I even tried to gank-fit the rocketboat and I still couldn't do much to anything above a T-1 frigate. So am I doing something wrong? Is there any fittings that have worked better than what I'm dealing with? Or should I just focus on getting to the HACs and forget the assault frigs for now? Thanks.
Lil Mule	Posted - 2008.01.07 20:32:00 - [2] 1) As it stands in EVE currently, AF's are useless, except for presenting a nice target to pop. 2) I did once see a pilot own quite a few other AF's and even a cruiser or two with a Retribution. Havent seen the feat duplicated since. Of the two, if you have incredible kick a.s.s skills you might be able to do some damage with a retribution, otherwise forget the AF's and go for the HAC's. In fact, go for the HAC's period.
OConner	Posted - 2008.01.07 20:35:00 - [3] I like the vengence you got a great tank and a meh dps, but the good thing about rockets is you can get right next to the target and hit for full damage unlike guns, plus you can switch ammo types as well. A ishkur died very quickly last night to my vengence where each of my rockets did 48 damage to it . Btw vengence is tank not gank like the wolf .
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.07 20:54:00 - [4] Originally by: OConner I like the vengence you got a great tank and a meh dps, but the good thing about rockets is you can get right next to the target and hit for full damage unlike guns, plus you can switch ammo types as well. A ishkur died very quickly last night to my vengence where each of my rockets did 48 damage to it . Btw vengence is tank not gank like the wolf . The Vengeance has the best frigate-sized tank I've ever seen; i've seen it almost tank a Rupture (not with mad skills - I had cruisers III at the time, but with a gyro II and T2 180s and preety good gunnery support skills, rapid fire V / SS IV / med AC spec II) for about 4-5 minutes. Rigged vengeance, that is. Considering it's incredibly hard to get that sort of firepower on any other AF, it should most likely kill them in time. Rifters!
Kaileen Starsong Amarr True Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.07 20:57:00 - [5] I love AFs, they provide nice T2 salvage, amarr ones being the best at it actually On a more serious note - AFs are in need of a rework, all of them. Some fare a bit better than the others, but they're still only good for salvage
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.07 21:02:00 - [6] Originally by: Kaileen Starsong I love AFs, they provide nice T2 salvage, amarr ones being the best at it actually On a more serious note - AFs are in need of a rework, all of them. Some fare a bit better than the others, but they're still only good for salvage I got 10M off just salvaging a Vengeance and a Malediction once ;) Rifters!
Kaileen Starsong Amarr True Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.07 21:08:00 - [7] Well, I got 2 cap consoles from a retri and vengeance once. They were 20 mil each back then Btw, about vengeance and that ruppie. I can see that happening, but only if the pilot has either fair low skill or if he underestimates an opponent and fights without trying to maximize his damage on target(i.e. lower transversal, load better ammo type like PP, using navy ammo, etc)
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.07 21:15:00 - [8] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 07/01/2008 21:16:15 Originally by: Kaileen Starsong Well, I got 2 cap consoles from a retri and vengeance once. They were 20 mil each back then Btw, about vengeance and that ruppie. I can see that happening, but only if the pilot has either fair low skill or if he underestimates an opponent and fights without trying to maximize his damage on target(i.e. lower transversal, load better ammo type like PP, using navy ammo, etc) I was in the Rupture, with one gyrostab II and mediocre cruiser skills (cruiser III, AC spec II, but T2 guns), actually. Was using PP, but not faction ammo and I did keep transversal very low so tracking was absolutely no issue; however, a rigged out Vengeance can, in fact, tank a lot. I think it was dual-repping and was using a thermal hardener. I can see it slowly breaking another AF over time but the damage is utterly craptastic; after the fight I had maybe 5% armour damage. However, how useful is a big tank on a slow and very harmless AF i'm not sure. It DID pop in the end, though. We did pop a covops, stabber, Jaguar and a couple of Rifters which warped in on us mid-fight, so it turned out to be quite a profitable endavour ;) Rifters!
Kaileen Starsong Amarr True Foundation	Posted - 2008.01.07 21:24:00 - [9] Originally by: Cpt Branko I think it was dual-repping and was using a thermal hardener. I can see it slowly breaking another AF over time but the damage is utterly craptastic; after the fight I had maybe 5% armour damage. ... It DID pop in the end, though. Which brings us back to the topic that AFs need some kind of rework, since a heavily-tanked rigged AF couldn't tank a quite tanky(don't fly ruppies, but d180's suggest 1600mm or atleast 800mm+rep setup) cruiser setup with okay skills(quite some room for improvement...). Really, the pricetag and skill requirements of that ruppy are quite low compared to that particular vengeace-that-fared-better-than-expected
Echo Degnar Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.07 21:35:00 - [10] I've actually had considerable success in my Retribution and Vengeance. I use the Retribution for mission running and have no problems at all. It takes a bit longer than it would in a cruiser, but that's the fun. I've only brought the Vengeance out for PvP in the past week or so. Not once has my tank faltered, even with two frigates and a cruiser on me. My skill with rockets are minimal, so my damage is sub-par -- I'm also not accustomed to reloading, so it's a change. I guess it's time that will tell how I truly fare. --------------- 1) Do CCP, eve-online makers, should make more surver ? I'm your* Alt.**
6Bagheera9 Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.07 21:51:00 - [11] Retribution is an excellent 0.0 ninja ratter, if you're careful and keep a low-profile it will be very hard to catch you. With good fitting skills you can even fit medium beam laser IIs without gimping the rest of your set-up.
Power's Urge Keepers of the Holy Bagel Darkness Rising Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.07 22:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Echo Degnar I use the Retribution for mission running and have no problems at all. It takes a bit longer than it would in a cruiser, but that's the fun. That sounds like you're doing L2 missions in it, right ? I actually use mine for L3 missions - yes, that takes even longer compared to a BC, but again, it's more fun. I think I've pretty much only run Angels missions in the Amarr AFs because of their resistances; against other NPCs I pick other AFs accordingly. I use the Retribution for missions that I know I can tank with no problem and the Vengeance for the harder ones like "The Spy Stash"; I don't think the Retribution would survive that. Originally by: 6Bagheera9 Retribution is an excellent 0.0 ninja ratter, if you're careful and keep a low-profile it will be very hard to catch you. True; I did that in an Enyo. What rats do you go against in it ?
OConner	Posted - 2008.01.07 23:33:00 - [13] Well I wouldn't say the Af is useless. Think a month ago i was in my wolf hunting around and found a mymdrion. I put my scram on and circled him at 500m while he shot me with his medium blasters and let his T2 Orges out at me and webbed me as well. The fight lasted about 10mins till his buddy came along with vaga and blew me to hell . But the mymdrion was going down and the pilot told me he was on his last set of cap boosters by the time vaga came. So I find it weird when ppl say that a af can't take on cruisers and such, just takes awhile, plus its more of a challenege as well .
Jack Coutu	Posted - 2008.01.08 01:12:00 - [14] Sounds like that myrm pilot was pretty new to pvp. there are things you can do in a myrm to stop that.
6Bagheera9 Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.08 01:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Power's Urge Originally by: Echo Degnar I use the Retribution for mission running and have no problems at all. It takes a bit longer than it would in a cruiser, but that's the fun. That sounds like you're doing L2 missions in it, right ? I actually use mine for L3 missions - yes, that takes even longer compared to a BC, but again, it's more fun. I think I've pretty much only run Angels missions in the Amarr AFs because of their resistances; against other NPCs I pick other AFs accordingly. I use the Retribution for missions that I know I can tank with no problem and the Vengeance for the harder ones like "The Spy Stash"; I don't think the Retribution would survive that. Originally by: 6Bagheera9 Retribution is an excellent 0.0 ninja ratter, if you're careful and keep a low-profile it will be very hard to catch you. True; I did that in an Enyo. What rats do you go against in it ? Haven't done it personally, but I ran the numbers and they looked better than the Wolf I was ninja ratting it. You would kinda be restricted to Sansha or Blood Raiders as lasers don't do great damage to other pirate factions.
Malcanis Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.08 02:49:00 - [16] Originally by: Lil Mule 1) As it stands in EVE currently, AF's are useless, except for presenting a nice target to pop. 2) I did once see a pilot own quite a few other AF's and even a cruiser or two with a Retribution. Havent seen the feat duplicated since. Of the two, if you have incredible kick a.s.s skills you might be able to do some damage with a retribution, otherwise forget the AF's and go for the HAC's. In fact, go for the HAC's period. A few times I took my harpy out with a mid-size roaming fleet (30-35). By ignoring the FC's call of primary (wtf my dps gonna do to a BS?) I picked off 2-3 inties/dictors and some pods each time. Full gank fit (2 mag stabs, 2 optical trackings, CL-5 shield booster) - gauss proto 150mm with CN Iron/AM. My tank was basically to be "not worth shooting at". Oh yeah, and being aligned at speed. It sounds lame, I suppose, but I brought the ship back home 2 out of 3 times, and got several KMs. I took out I dunno 6 or 7 ships of my own class, plus some pods, for the loss of one ship. I admit it's not spectacular (I make no claim to PvP uberness), but pretty worthwhile. So there's you're AF niche: fly with lots of more desireable targets, align to warp, and wtfpwn expensive T2 frigs at 25-60Km. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Detris The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.08 03:11:00 - [17] Well i can vouch for uselessness of the Amarr AFs. I was fighting a T2 fitted Drake in my Brutix we were both in structure. I popped the Drake with 20% structure left then a retribution warped in and tackled me.(I don't quite know how u tackle with that ship but w/e) I killed it with out taking a hit to my structure. My guess is that it was fitted with a warp scram and a some sort of armor tank but it could not deal effective dmg on me. I hate sigs. :)
MenanceWhite	Posted - 2008.01.08 03:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Detris - Did'nt the KM just tell you what fitting he had?
Detris The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.08 03:39:00 - [19] Was before the thing that says what was destroyed. I only got a small armor repper and a DC1.
Miss Miata	Posted - 2008.01.08 05:56:00 - [20] Edited by: Miss Miata on 08/01/2008 05:57:19 u can use the retri in solo pvp but you gotta hope they dont have a web. 4 guns +nos scram either go tank or damage in lo`s using a overdrive 2 to give to reasonable speed (350ms 4 me) with 3 damage mods im kicking out over 170dps with pulses but webs will end ya day quickly. on another note i love the vengeance but it rquires lots of training in semi useless skills and even then its got terrible dps and its slow, but can tank like biatch!!
OConner	Posted - 2008.01.08 06:46:00 - [21] Originally by: Jack Coutu Sounds like that myrm pilot was pretty new to pvp. there are things you can do in a myrm to stop that. Actually he was a 2 year old pirate , his guns couldn't hit me even w/ web (cause of me orbting at a very close range w/ an afterburner on) and orges he had I just kept shotting them and destroyed 3 of em till he decide to just keep them in the drone bay. Yes there are ways to stop this by like passive shielding the mymdrion (which is stupid for pvp) or putting light t2 drones in (which he didn't since he had 5 heavy drones). But all a af has to do is kill off the drones, its espically easy now since they nerfed the drone instant reheal thing. Its funny seeing pilots though underestimate the af espically if the af pilot knows what he is doing. Afs are good ships its just some people are to lazy to try to learn how to use them.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.08 07:31:00 - [22] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 08/01/2008 07:32:15 Originally by: OConner Originally by: Jack Coutu Sounds like that myrm pilot was pretty new to pvp. there are things you can do in a myrm to stop that. Actually he was a 2 year old pirate , his guns couldn't hit me even w/ web (cause of me orbting at a very close range w/ an afterburner on) and orges he had I just kept shotting them and destroyed 3 of em till he decide to just keep them in the drone bay. Yes there are ways to stop this by like passive shielding the mymdrion (which is stupid for pvp) or putting light t2 drones in (which he didn't since he had 5 heavy drones). But all a af has to do is kill off the drones, its espically easy now since they nerfed the drone instant reheal thing. Its funny seeing pilots though underestimate the af espically if the af pilot knows what he is doing. Afs are good ships its just some people are to lazy to try to learn how to use them. There is a trivial way to deal with this: pick any direction, turn on MWD, watch as the angular velocity drops close to 0 rad/sec and med blasters start tracking just fine. It is the problem; MWD-ing BCs are faster then AB-ing AFs/frigs (and veeery close to inties with OD IIs), and whoever is faster, controls both range and transversal - you cannot orbit a faster target.* You could give us the name so we can laugh at him a bit ;) I had kept a Hurricane tackled and going down for about 2-3 minutes in my Rifter once (and he was using dual 180s which track very well but just sitting there webbed) until he figured out what the MWD is for, started powering away, and shredded me to bits ;P One more minute and it would've been too late for him, too. *It's trivial versus a Wolf which cannot web you, really, due to lack of midslots. Rifters!
Arkanjuca Caldari Tropa de Elite The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.08 08:18:00 - [23] Thats the point, i killed a vexor the other day in my alt's retribution, but the guy was pure noob, he had no drones Or the Stealth Bomber that didnt shot a single missile at my wolf... There will be a lot of idiotic kills, thats the AF role, make fun KM. -- "Strike first, strike fast and strike hard..."
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.01.08 09:13:00 - [24] To the OP: the Amarr AFs are actually pretty good. The Retri (though not a solo ship) has very nice dps, and the Vengeance has a silly-good tank for a frigate. I've used both. That said, you're running into the general problem that AFs currently aren't that hot, as a class. Hopefully they'll get a boost at some point.
Laerise Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.08 11:08:00 - [25] Amarrian AF's start to really shine if you use their very spoecific roles to your advantage. The retri gives extremely good, and ranged, damage to any frigate gang, two of them can easily dispatch any five'er flight of lights/mediums in a matter of seconds. The vengeance excells as heavily tanked tackler if it flies in a frigate gang, and can also be used to take out those pesky hostile ceptors/AF's that like to zoom around solo at insane speeds. Either they slow down to hit you, then your rockets will do damage (and your own tank is superior), or they have to run away.
Minerva Moore	Posted - 2008.01.08 11:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Maximus Krew I recently started flying assault frigs to stray from covert ops, mostly on the impressed nature of the Ishkur and how powerful that little bastard is. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a niche in either model worth a damn. On the Retribution, the damage is decent but having one mid-slot gimps me from doing anything more than a small fleet op. Can't tackle, can't ewar... basically not worth taking it out when I have the option of the Omen or Maller. On the Vengeance, the fittings are nice, and the tank is very respectable for a frigate but the damage output is disgustingly low. I even tried to gank-fit the rocketboat and I still couldn't do much to anything above a T-1 frigate. So am I doing something wrong? Is there any fittings that have worked better than what I'm dealing with? Or should I just focus on getting to the HACs and forget the assault frigs for now? Thanks. The entire shipclass is broken, everyone knows that. But strangely enough there is no thread called "Caldari Pilots: our God awful Assault Frigs", "Gallente Pilots: our God awful Assault Frigs" or "Minmatar Pilots: our God awful Assault Frigs". How is it possible that Amarr players manage to turn absolutely everything into proof that it's so hard to be Amarr? Yet another Amarr whining thread. Fail.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.08 11:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Minerva Moore The entire shipclass is broken, everyone knows that. This. For the record, Caldari have the absolutely worst AF of them all; the Hawk. The DPS of a Hawk is absolutely pitiful (and the tank isn't nearly as good as a Vengeance). I'm not afraid of that thing even in a T1 frig (admittedly, I do have preety superb skills in that area). Rifters!
Reacz Caldari Empirius Enigmus Navy Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.08 11:41:00 - [28] AFs are OK for mission running, but even then the skill time to train them to a decent level basically means a player can be a in BC before they are able to step into an AF. And lets face it, BC or AF? :P For PvP they are even more nerfed, poor DPS with a reasonable tank, the only shining light is that they rarely get called primary and even though they are 'fat' they still get away pretty quickly when someones targetting them. Apart from the resists AFs are pretty worthless. But this is reflected in the price, 7-10 mil for a Hawk, 10-15 mil for Harpy isn't bad for a cheap throw away ship. They make a good close range tackler and can hold there own long enough for the bigger guys to throw some pain the other guys way. I think most problems people have with them is that they lack anything to make them really any better than Cruisers and the fact they are referred to as 'mini' versions of their Cruiser counterparts you would think they could put up a good fight, but 9/10 they just die to t2 150mm Railgun Cruiser or Destroyer setups. I do agree, they need something to differentiate them from the pack, some people have sugguested making them unwebbable or the effects of a web deminish per skill level. I guess that would make more pilots fly them.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.01.08 12:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Reacz But this is reflected in the price, 7-10 mil for a Hawk, 10-15 mil for Harpy isn't bad for a cheap throw away ship. They make a good close range tackler and can hold there own long enough for the bigger guys to throw some pain the other guys way. This is not throw-away. A well fit (T2) AF will typically cost anywhere from 15M for the cheaper ones to 20-24M. Insurance payout is preety lousy as well, so you've effectively got a loss cost of about 15-16M on the more expensive ones and 10-12ish on the cheaper ones. Now, a almost fully T2-fit Rupture, again with insurance, has a loss cost of a bit under 20M; which is not too far off. It has more range, more hitting power, more buffer, decent speed and get away ability. It contributes so much more to a gang it's not funny. In fact, I use a Thrasher (AC fit) these days when I want just a bit more firepower then I'd get out of a Rifter (or, in fact, significantly more firepower then I'd get out of a Wolf). Speed is decent, agility is better then the Jaguar or especially the Wolf, and on top of all that, loss cost is rougly 3.5M on the typical Thrasher fit I use (or a bit under 5M with a bit more T2 then what I typically use). And you still don't get primaried a lot So, what to train, destroyers V or AF V? Obvious choice, isn't it? Haven't fitted one in a while really, so can't remember the exact number but I'm quite sure it is, in fact, under 20M. Rifters!
Serim Ca'lle	Posted - 2008.01.08 12:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Laerise Amarrian AF's start to really shine if you use their very spoecific roles to your advantage. The retri gives extremely good, and ranged, damage to any frigate gang, two of them can easily dispatch any five'er flight of lights/mediums in a matter of seconds. The vengeance excells as heavily tanked tackler if it flies in a frigate gang, and can also be used to take out those pesky hostile ceptors/AF's that like to zoom around solo at insane speeds. Either they slow down to hit you, then your rockets will do damage (and your own tank is superior), or they have to run away. Pretty much what I was going to say. The Amarr AFs are excellent ships if you know how to fit them properly and the retribution really does not suffer for having only one mid slot.

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