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Dear Wrangler, what proves acceptable for ship reimbursement?

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MNU	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:14:00 - [1] Dear Wrangler, Since the senior GM provided following answer on my petition: ôOur reimbursement policy requires us to be able to provide server side proof of problems in order to reimburse and since we can not do that in this case, our hands are tiedö, I have only one question û if there any reason to player to collect any information and proves when submitting petition for lost ship reimbursement? Or better to save the time and just to fill the name of the ship and press submit button, counting on CCP have all necessary information in logs? In my case, I was trying to have anyone from CCP support to look on my screenshots as proves for ship reimbursement. Was sitting in the ship without ôdockö icon in the overview while a station was selected and was reading the in-game mail regarding insurance for the ship destroyed while was sitting in this ship (mean the client-server connection was on). I donÆt want to describe here other symptoms in details like being not able to activate modules or whatever else even if the local was only about 20 (results û lost ship and pod). It was pointed by others too may time. Of course, everybody knows the copy pasted answers usually used in such cases û our logs do notà I really donÆt want anymore my lost ship to be reimbursed, just trying to understand wat in the situation is. Thanks.
Vincenzo Delloro Amarr Lux et Veritas	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:21:00 - [2] If their logs don't indicate a problem with their code, they're not going to reimburse you. Deal with it.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:22:00 - [3] Edited by: Tarminic on 10/01/2008 18:23:43 From the reimbursement policy: Quote: 1. LOST SHIPS Please note that the insurance payout received when a ship is lost will be subtracted from a playerÆs wallet if the ship is reimbursed. Ships may be lost during combat with non-player (NPC) pirates or police forces, player-vs-player (PVP) combat or by self-destruction. 1. Ships lost in NPC combat may be replaced in cases where a bug has been verified through GM investigation as the cause. Such reimbursement would only be done at the discretion of a GM. 2. Ships lost during PVP combat may be replaced only in cases where a bug has been verified as the cause of the loss. Such reimbursement would only be done after an investigation and at the discretion of a GM. 3. Losses caused due to disconnection as a direct result of a server node drop or an unannounced server downtime may be reimbursed pending investigation by, and at the discretion of, a GM. Ships lost due to lag or non-server related disconnection will not be reimbursed. 4. Ships destroyed by use of the "self destruct" feature, whether intentionally or accidentally, cannot be reimbursed. NOTE: Items looted from a wreck following the destruction of a ship cannot be replaced. Should your ship be destroyed, we advise you to seek out and collect your belongings as quickly as possible. Should answer your question. EDIT: Well, remember that screenshots and the client log can't be used for ship replacement since both can be altered - I.E. the developers can't know whether you altered the logs or photoshopped something. ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
Xiaodown Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:28:00 - [4] Edited by: Xiaodown on 10/01/2008 18:30:35 In some of the threads recently in CAOD, I thought the goons / IAC / other southern residents were kidding or exaggerating when they said that nothing ever gets replaced due to lag, because the logs never show anything. But, they're right, appearantly the logs don't show (for example) someone who's not warp-scrambled spamming the warp button while they're slowly being eaten by another ship for 5 minutes, and yet not able to warp out. The official phrase they've used with several of us is: "There are countless possible reasons for such lag, such as localized ISP problems, software conflicts, a corrupt cache and so on and so forth. All issues we can not verify and must refuse." Yeah, I understand that if it's one person, but... seriously, do you really think 700 people across the globe have random simultaneous ISP problems, all at the same moments, every day down in the south? Really? Do you think that everyone in Goonswarm happened to install some program that corrupted all of their caches at the same time on the same day? Do you think everyone in BoB simultaneously installed something that conflicts with eve locally on their computers? Come on now. ~X Edit: the above poster has pointed out this: " 3. Losses caused due to disconnection as a direct result of a server node drop or an unannounced server downtime may be reimbursed pending investigation by, and at the discretion of, a GM. Ships lost due to lag or non-server related disconnection will not be reimbursed." That's fine, I mean, the game can't handle the load that people are trying to put on it because of whatever, stupidity, game mechanics, etc, and it creates lag. Just tell someone: "Lag = no reimbursement, it's in the EULA". Don't tell people "There is no lag" or "the lag was at your end". -- I'm working on getting a TRI radio station up, so... if you like music, stay tuned for TRI Radio, and if you want to DJ, contact me in game.
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:46:00 - [5] short form of what Tarminic posted.. ' NO ' Originally by: CCP Wrangler Well boohoo
Duncan Bannatyne Machiavellian Intuition	Posted - 2008.01.10 18:48:00 - [6] Edited by: Duncan Bannatyne on 10/01/2008 18:48:18 The petition system is overly harsh, just as the game is. Unlucky. Duncan Bannatyne The Dragons Are Taking Over...
Kira Direll Niflhel TALIONIS ALLIANCE	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:02:00 - [7] Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Edited by: Duncan Bannatyne on 10/01/2008 18:48:18 The petition system is overly harsh, just as the game is. Unlucky. in no MMO i played so far would the staff reimburse _anything_. be it lost completely through idiocy or server issues. i dont get the whole crying over reimbursement. if you lose a ship its gone. buy a new one, insure it or stop flying. the reimbursement thing screams for exploitation and i fully understand if its handled veeeery carefully and done veeeery seldom. just my 2 cents. --- Disclaimer: sadly, all dumbass opinions or expressions i make _do_ reflect on my corp. they might not reflect on individual members, but who am i to not take responsibility and act accoordingly?
Micheal Dietrich Caldari The Delta Source Dread Sovereign	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:03:00 - [8] I'm one of the few who actually did get a ship back from a lag loss. I had the screenshots showing me still in my ships and yet my wreck was behind me. Took another 5 minutes just to finally warp as I sat there watching them blow up each drone that took me 3 minutes just to deploy. I was halfway through warp when the graphics finally changed to a pod. They gave back the ship and put my account into negatives (I went on a shopping spree ) but it's only got the stuff that was originally destroyed as I couldn't get salvage back at the time. Personally I don't have a issue losing a ship when it's a ID 10 T error and I'm glad they were able to give this one back to me. It very very rare but it does happen.
Mythrell Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:08:00 - [9] This makes me **ed off sometimes, like right now. You get all excited and moist in places when you finally meet your opponent in battlefield and all you can do is watch when your ship dies slowly over 20 minute time just because you can't do jack . Not to mention all the kills missed because locking and module activation delays. Replacing ships lost due to server lag would make a lot of people happy, but instead of being happy and dancing in the rain, I'll remember to mention how *ty lag is in EVE to all who cares to listen and recommend them to stay away and go play something else. Better to never try than get into this, waste money and then be constantly dissapointed at the state of servers. Not to even mention bugs cough* boot.ini cough. Shame on you, CCP.
Kumq uat Gallente Round Table Enterprises New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:08:00 - [10] What is funny to me is these people with very good reasons to get reimbursed are denied and yet some idiot ones get reimbursed. Like this guy I knew from when he first joined Eve. Ran missions non stop, got a CNR and put all officer mods on it. Was very annoying always announcing just how much his ship was currently worth (over a bil easily.) We wanted to kill it. Anyways, he is doing a mission with a friend and he has smartbombs on his Raven. Officer smartbombs. Yeah, anyways so his friend blows up and then he decides he is going to set off his smartbombs. He pops his friends can and gets shown how effective Concord is even in dead space. He got reimbursed for that. What horse ****. www.eve-pirate.com author and goat molestor.
Battleclash	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:12:00 - [11] Originally by: Mythrell This makes me **ed off sometimes, like right now. You get all excited and moist in places when you finally meet your opponent in battlefield and all you can do is watch when your ship dies slowly over 20 minute time just because you can't do jack . Not to mention all the kills missed because locking and module activation delays. Replacing ships lost due to server lag would make a lot of people happy, but instead of being happy and dancing in the rain, I'll remember to mention how *ty lag is in EVE to all who cares to listen and recommend them to stay away and go play something else. Better to never try than get into this, waste money and then be constantly dissapointed at the state of servers. Not to even mention bugs cough* boot.ini cough. Shame on you, CCP. And the best part is he is still paying them. Originally by: Vladimir Ilych Stupidity is universal.
crazyiven Brotherhood of Soban Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:27:00 - [12] Ahh I think its who ever get the petition. I once was poded when i jumed a gate in a raz. Never seen space just a flash of my pod and then station. Last week when jita was jacked up. And everyone was stuck i put in a petition and they unstuck me, was nice to see how fast that happened. But I log in after the unstick, and im sitting at a gate all laged out with war target. Yes ship goes boom I could not do anything but watch. So they tell me they could not see anything abnormal. lol yha ok there was nothing abnormal about everyone being stuck in Jita. I just think they dont want to deal with it anymor. So ill go make a noob quit and ill be happy.
Summersnow	Posted - 2008.01.10 19:30:00 - [13] Reimbursement policy - you will NOT get anything reimbursed UNLESS it can be conclusively proved by CCP that CCP is somehow at fault for the incident via hardware or software issues on there end. With all due respect thats how it should be. The game is intended to have real consequnces for carelessnes or stupidity. Thats not to say that there aren't times I wouldn't have minded a policy to Blizzards of allowing a limited number of reimbursements per account. The only issue I've ever had was when CCP posted that they were going to be lenient with reimbursements after a horrendous patch release ( rmr I beleive ) that was trashing the servers pretty badly and then didn't honor that commitment ( lost a diemost to lag ).
Khanid Kutie I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp	Posted - 2008.01.10 20:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Summersnow Reimbursement policy - you will NOT get anything reimbursed UNLESS it can be conclusively proved by CCP that CCP is somehow at fault for the incident via hardware or software issues on there end. how much u wanna bet the bob and goon forces wh lost their ships to the node crash in 49-U dont get their stuff back? And CCP have even ROLE PLAYED the node crash, so surely their logs MUST show something about it. Unless they really ARE that clueless
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.10 20:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Khanid Kutie Originally by: Summersnow Reimbursement policy - you will NOT get anything reimbursed UNLESS it can be conclusively proved by CCP that CCP is somehow at fault for the incident via hardware or software issues on there end. how much u wanna bet the bob and goon forces wh lost their ships to the node crash in 49-U dont get their stuff back? And CCP have even ROLE PLAYED the node crash, so surely their logs MUST show something about it. Unless they really ARE that clueless Actually, if the node crashed how would anyone have lost their ship - such a crash would kick everyone off, wouldn't it? If you logged back in and then got killed it would fall under the usual lag category. ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
MNU	Posted - 2008.01.10 20:07:00 - [16] The original question was if there any reason to spend the time to describe of what happened in details and collect any useful information. If it anyway not acceptable û than better to write only some short description like ôI lost my ship due to un-sync. Please check if yoy see anything in your logsö. At lest it will save the time, instead of spending this time to writing all the details, putting together screenshots, logs and whatever you have and believe it will help. I can afford to lose 1 or 2 extra ships per month due to the serversÆ issues, but definitely hate to work for new ships when it not my fault. It happens more and more often, when you spending couple of hours to find some gang-with-gang good fight and than only to see that there nothing you can do to enjoy the fight due to lag or completely un-sync. ItÆs even happening with less than 40 in the local. P.S. IÆm sorry for this BS with factional fit, who jumped to the gate and found himself in 20au from the gate in the middle of my gang (the gate actually was 2000m away from him )and was typing in the local that he canÆt activate any module or to move. We killed and pod-killed him anyway. As excuses to him, I can only say û we spent 15 minutes to get into this system from the neighbor one. Most of us were getting disconnects when we were trying to jump all at the same the time, so we did it one by one. Andà the local was only less than 30.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.01.10 20:16:00 - [17] Originally by: MNU The original question was if there any reason to spend the time to describe of what happened in details and collect any useful information. If it anyway not acceptable û than better to write only some short description like ôI lost my ship due to un-sync. Please check if yoy see anything in your logsö. Actually, if you lose a ship to a bug like desync, it may be helpful to include things like log files and such in your petition. I think that the BEST thing you could do is file a bug report (with log files/screenshots) and then file a petition, then include the Bug Report ID in the petition. I've never lost a ship to desync though so I can't say how effective this technique is. ---------------- Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.01.10 20:58:00 - [18] @ op, you received the generic version of the ccp response "get bent"
Atomos Darksun Havoc Inc Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.10 21:49:00 - [19] It's not hard to check if a screenshot was edited. I was getting shot at by rats from 5 au's away and I lost my mega nad they didn't reimburse it. Completely stupid. My client said I was at a planet, but CCP apparently didn't. Stupid is what it is. ----- They've gone to PLAID!!
Ryuben Gallente The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.10 22:15:00 - [20] was in a belt, rats turned up i warmed out - rats stayed on overview @0.9 augradually eat me ship and killed it my pod stays at the planet my wreck is @ the belt i screen shot this send it in for reimbursment. this was on 10th of november i finally got a reply 2 days after the "node crash" generic reply the senior GM hadn't even read my petition or looked at the screen shots just put a generic reply down. "logs didn't show any thing. Sucks tbh
Xiaodown Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.11 00:15:00 - [21] Originally by: Kira Direll in no MMO i played so far would the staff reimburse _anything_. be it lost completely through idiocy or server issues. i dont get the whole crying over reimbursement. In most MMO's there's very little penalty to death. This is what sets eve apart. Die in wow? Oh, well, it'll cost you X gold to repair your equipment, probably an hour's worth of playtime. Die in eve? Well, if your ship was worth 4 billion, it may take you two months to re-make that money. Time is money. -- I'm working on getting a TRI radio station up, so... if you like music, stay tuned for TRI Radio, and if you want to DJ, contact me in game.
Orgos Khenn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.11 00:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Mythrell This makes me **ed off sometimes, like right now. You get all excited and moist in places when you finally meet your opponent in battlefield and all you can do is watch when your ship dies slowly over 20 minute time just because you can't do jack . Not to mention all the kills missed because locking and module activation delays. Replacing ships lost due to server lag would make a lot of people happy, but instead of being happy and dancing in the rain, I'll remember to mention how *ty lag is in EVE to all who cares to listen and recommend them to stay away and go play something else. Better to never try than get into this, waste money and then be constantly dissapointed at the state of servers. Not to even mention bugs cough* boot.ini cough. Shame on you, CCP. Door is that way.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.11 00:59:00 - [23] In the past I have been promoting the use of "common sense" in addition to server logs. Most of the time server logs don't show conclusively that a server problem has resulted in player ship loss. However, in many cases, applying deductive reasoning on server logs and the end result, it would be possible to conclude that player lost a ship thru no fault of his own. I understand that this method requires a certain level of trust from CCP toward GM's ability for logical thinking. But I'm sure they could find the right people. The overall customer satisfaction is sure to go up if CCP was willing to make that small leap of faith.
britishfish Minmatar Fade To Black	Posted - 2008.01.11 01:09:00 - [24] check this one out fora X-File so im flying along in about a gang of 15 people nothing about no aggresion for ages ie targets, so we start heading home following gang warps and so on. then wham i hears my daughter screaming this was while i was in warp was a huge system also so i tell the guys go on without me and logs off had to be about 5/6au off the gate in a rigged vagabond so i goes feeds my daughter gets her back to sleep logs in wtf vagabond wreck npc`s on the mail im gobsmacked tbfh so i think to myself might aswell try a petition. later response was madness basiclly so i reaplyed then got a mail saying sry i didnt read the logs right blah blah blah. heres the best bit they told me i logged off after my ship was destroyed there logs show this im like wtf lol blah blah even had a couple of corp m8`s say yeah he logged like plenty of AU from the gate, but no ccp say i logged off after i died lmfao so anyway guess what im trying to say is dont bother with a petition half the time they dont show anything and the other half tbfh i think they make up A Dream is a goal without a plan. "No guts , no glory."
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.01.11 01:17:00 - [25] Originally by: britishfish so anyway guess what im trying to say is dont bother with a petition half the time they dont show anything and the other half tbfh i think they make up QFT
Morberi	Posted - 2008.01.11 01:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Atomos Darksun It's not hard to check if a screenshot was edited. Actually its not hard to make a photoshopped alteration almost undetectable if you're talented and know what you're doing. I don't doubt that if they allowed screenshots as evidence talented artists would end up selling photoshopped screenshots for expensive ships. Hell who wouldn't pay 500 million for a screenshot to get back a 2-3 billion dollar ship.
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2008.01.11 01:18:00 - [27] You got a reply, which is more than I have after 2 weeks. I dont want the ship back, it was just a shuttle, I want the cost of the new clone I had to pay for. 1 minute of seeing "jump is in progress" while they jump in, kill my ship, pod me, leave. And still the message 'jump is in progress' is there. BTW, Trinity is crappola, new gfx doesnt make up for all the unfixed bugs, poor gameplay etc. Fix the game THEN make it look pretty. Originally by: Ian Holloway Smooth as a cashmere codpiece
Karlemgne Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:49:00 - [28] To be quite honest this seems completely and totally random. Whether you do, or do not, get your ship back has a lot to do with the GM you get. Some GMs are mores sympathetic than others as far as ship loss, and like it or not little things matter in CS. Did the person answering your ticket/petition just start their shift? Perhaps its the end of their shift and they've just had to deal with 15 BS ship loss petitions before they got to yours. This kind of stuff matters. Personally, I've been in situations where 5 people in a gang all get kicked from the server and die. Each person petitions, and 4 people get their ships back, while the 5ths petition is denied. Hell I've even seen a ship pop outside a station and drop a can (after Kali) rather than a wreck... which included every item on the ship... including the players RIGS. Apparently the GM and the senior GM both felt that they could find nothing wrong with this loss. But, whatever. You win some and you lose some. -Karlemgne
Karlemgne Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Kira Direll Originally by: Duncan Bannatyne Edited by: Duncan Bannatyne on 10/01/2008 18:48:18 The petition system is overly harsh, just as the game is. Unlucky. in no MMO i played so far would the staff reimburse _anything_. be it lost completely through idiocy or server issues. i dont get the whole crying over reimbursement. if you lose a ship its gone. buy a new one, insure it or stop flying. the reimbursement thing screams for exploitation and i fully understand if its handled veeeery carefully and done veeeery seldom. just my 2 cents. You're wrong. Just fyi. -Karlemgne
LukeIamYourMother Hedion University	Posted - 2008.01.11 08:59:00 - [30] I used to work as GM (in another game) a few years ago. While the CCP policy probably is different than ours, you can still always 'help' GMs when petitioning. 1) One thing common among the MMO's I played, is that noone of them accepted screenshots as proof. 2) Another thing being that GM's want to check logs. Depending on how the game is constructed that sometimes means you need support from local employees (in my case I was an overseas-GM and helped with ingame events + getting people unstuck, I forwarded logs to local GMs). 3) To check a log they usually need this information; name of involved parties, location, a short description of what happened, and most importantly - a timestamp of when it occured. So in short; I hardly doubt CCP will be interested in your screenshot, you just have to post what I just posted in point 3.

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