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The Cosmopolite Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.27 16:38:00 - [511] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri you misread Cosmo Ztang. The first thing to be said is that Gaven is quite right and nothing I have said expresses any approval for the use of log-off traps or suggests that they can in any way be legitimated by some veneer of RP that someone might conjure up. Please do take careful note that Gaven himself accepts that actions which can have IC consequences can be OOCly 'lame and stupid'. He does seem to accept that actions that have IC consequences can be legitimately subject to general OOC opprobrium. Quote: [Cosmo] was making the same point you are. Unfortunately, it is an invalid point because IC and OOC are by no means as black and white as I would like them to be. Well, the problem whenever you and I discuss this, Gaven, is that we both agree that the IC and the OOC are fuzzy and merge the one into the other but we each draw quite different conclusions from that reality. What I find interesting in what you say here is that it is probably the clearest statement yet, from you, that you consider that, to paraphrase Corneille, in the service of the character, everything is legitimate. For I am not sure what other construction can be put on your statement that: "Anything with in game consequences is to some extent IC." Now, I know that this is your particular and personal view. I also believe that it is a statement that the CVA simply cannot and will not go along with because to do so is to accept all its logical corollaries, many of which they are on record as believing to be distasteful (though.. well, let us not go there today, nobody is perfect). I would say, the statement is, taken at face value, simply a blank cheque for legitimating virtually any action one could think of that would have some in-game consequence, or at any rate insulating it from the dread scourge that is OOC criticism. Gaven, you mean to defend what is said by CVA and their various allies in various OOC channels, forums and arenas, as being in part IC and therefore not to be criticised in OOC terms. Indeed, you declared yourself 'bored' with 'OOC attacks' on the CVA. Yet, and this can be demonstrated fairly easily, such 'OOC attacks' have in-game consequences. They therefore are legitimated by your own logic. This is where it takes you if you apply it evenly. Quote: As the Citadel caters more to non-RP types than to CVA and RP allies, conversation there is OOC. But it is a very real defence channel to our players. You just have to translate the OOC stuff into IC terms. But, you see, you are not addressing the real point here and you reveal it when you say that some 'you' has to 'translate' the OOC into IC. Who is this 'you' that you speak of? Well, I can only imagine you mean people who think the IC and OOC have meaning to begin with. You therefore mean, in general, RPers. Now that point of people 'translating' and turning some RPer cheek to something that might be OOC might have some power were it only RPers that were the issue here. The problem, Gaven, is that they are not the only people involved and you yourself accept this quite clearly. The problem is that the OOC meaning of the term is being relied on to effect in-game consequence. If that is legitimate, then it means any thing I care to say about the CVA is legitimate assuming it has in-game consequences. That really cannot be so. You say that 'pirate = dangerous outlaw' in CVA-speak. I say, you can only legitimately excuse its use as such among an audience that all understand that. If the audience do not understand that, and particularly if CVA people using the term know this (as I believe they surely must), then the use of the term is irresponsible at best and deceitful at worst. Just as you feel able to deem the IC consequence-inducing act that is a 'log-off trap' as being 'lame and stupid' (surely OOCly), so I feel able to say the use of the term 'pirate' when the intent is to smear OOCly, is a disgraceful lie. Cosmo The Star Fraction Communications Portal
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:10:00 - [512] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Ayari Also, you still haven't answered my question about how the Star Fraction ideal of 'Freespace' offers incentives to be NRDS, and how it differs from what happens in places like Syndicate every day? If you need an "incentive" to enjoy your political independence and free association with neutrals beyond the ability of an authoritarian state telling you what to think and set and engage then you probably aren't the sort of pilot that the freespace movement is ever going to appeal to. The Star Fraction freespace ethos is for honest, proud, capable and confident free captains who don't need other people telling them who is good and who is bad (they are smart and perceptive enough to make their own minds up). Its a concept that is never going to appeal to "followers" and people who seek the protection of herds. The only "incentive" is that you get to think for yourself. Scary I know, but some people like that sort of thing. Then you're not promoting NRDS at all really. The great majority of 0.0 players have already selected NBSI as their playstyle, and there's no reason for them to change. CVA offer an alternative way of living in 0.0, Star Fraction want to remove it, without replacing it with a different choice that would lead to more NRDS entities. Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Faridah Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.01.28 09:00:00 - [513] Originally by: Kovid Oh yes Tharrn? Then why does it outview all the other non-sticky threads on the page except for one at the time of this thread? Because Jade has jammed F5 with a toothpick to not miss a point argue about.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:45:00 - [514] Originally by: Ayari Then you're not promoting NRDS at all really. The great majority of 0.0 players have already selected NBSI as their playstyle, and there's no reason for them to change. CVA offer an alternative way of living in 0.0, Star Fraction want to remove it, without replacing it with a different choice that would lead to more NRDS entities. On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. You are correct in one way, yes, a majority of 0.0 players have selected NBSI as their playstyle (or rather their leaders have) and the consequence of this is exactly the same kind of standings enclosurism that we see in the CVA Providence zone. In many ways traditional NBSI standings enforcement is identical to CVA enclosurist enforcement, the only difference is that rather than relying on a forced +list that all residents must implement the CVA rely on a forced -list that all residents must implement. For an NBSI power all not on their +list are assumed to be KOS for their footsoldiers and allies. For CVA all on their -list are assumed to be KOS for their footsoldiers and allies. Its two ways of achieving precisely the same desired effect and that desire is control and domination of space. Thus the CVA implementation of technical NRDS is simply a PR stunt really. The huge majority of providence "residents" are under their direct control with citadel rights dependent on the adoption of a preset KOS list. The huge majority of their enemies are already Red and with that Red status transfered to each subordinate power. Thus its my contention that the CVA regime in Providence is NOT actually an alternative to the centralized top-down standings regimes of deep 0.0 NBSI powers. Its just the same in every important respect of standings administration and policy. For a true alternative you need to break free of the concept of "my enemy must automatically be your enemy" which is at the root of all imperialist dogma on the 0.0 frontier. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:35:00 - [515] Originally by: Jade Constantine On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. CVA already does this. You can go away now. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:03:00 - [516] Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Jade Constantine On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. CVA already does this. You can go away now. Well they clearly don't Janu Hull. Hence this discussion. What they actually do is misreport other NRDS entities as "pirates" thereby fooling neutrals into shooting neutrals. If you want to disprove my contention you are going to have to put some work into actually "disproving" it. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:23:00 - [517] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Jade Constantine On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. CVA already does this. You can go away now. Well they clearly don't Janu Hull. Hence this discussion. What they actually do is misreport other NRDS entities as "pirates" thereby fooling neutrals into shooting neutrals. If you want to disprove my contention you are going to have to put some work into actually "disproving" it. 1) CVA doesn't call Star Fraction "pirates". In fact, some of the things they call you aren't fit to repeat on this forum... 2) If you want neutrals to stop shooting you, talk to CVA's diplomats, say you're sorry you irritated them, have them adjust standings, and the rest of us will respect their decision and stop shooting you. 3) If you're serious about NRDS, please tell your Stealth Bomber flying monkey to stop camping the 9UY gate and go bang on his typewriter somewhere else. Yeah, not overly relevent to the current discussion, but it would be a nice gesture. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Adrian Steel Caldari The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:20:00 - [518] Originally by: Janu Hull 3) If you're serious about NRDS, please tell your Stealth Bomber flying monkey to stop camping the 9UY gate and go bang on his typewriter somewhere else. Yeah, not overly relevent to the current discussion, but it would be a nice gesture. I'm just glad I could oblige Janu! How does it feel to have all of Providence's shipping terrorized by one pilot? I'm quite serious about NRDS too! So much so, that I only shoot -10's. Could you imagine that!?
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:29:00 - [519] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 28/01/2008 18:29:47 Quote: 1) CVA doesn't call Star Fraction "pirates". In fact, some of the things they call you aren't fit to repeat on this forum... CVA does refer to SF as "pirates" and keeps our name on a list of "Pirates" and NBSI hostiles - and many of their own members and allies have admitted that in this very thread. If you are going to keep arguing here you best check your facts first. At the moment you are making your side of the argument look rather silly. Quote: 2) If you want neutrals to stop shooting you, talk to CVA's diplomats, say you're sorry you irritated them, have them adjust standings, and the rest of us will respect their decision and stop shooting you. Are you currently shooting us? When I asked you to clarify the issue you clammed up and stopped answering questions. Who are you speaking for when you say "the rest of us". At the moment I think your hostility is "forum only hostility" but I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this particular point. Quote: 3) If you're serious about NRDS, please tell your Stealth Bomber flying monkey to stop camping the 9UY gate and go bang on his typewriter somewhere else. Yeah, not overly relevent to the current discussion, but it would be a nice gesture. Request denied. Our pilots are engaging only those corporations and alliances who have aggressed the star fraction in the past and have full rights and freedom to do that. Any targets of opportunity have it coming. They choose to involve themselves in somebody else's war and their members will pay the price. We understand the nature of NRDS far better than you do Janu. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 19:49:00 - [520] Originally by: Adrian Steel Originally by: Janu Hull 3) If you're serious about NRDS, please tell your Stealth Bomber flying monkey to stop camping the 9UY gate and go bang on his typewriter somewhere else. Yeah, not overly relevent to the current discussion, but it would be a nice gesture. I'm just glad I could oblige Janu! How does it feel to have all of Providence's shipping terrorized by one pilot? I'm quite serious about NRDS too! So much so, that I only shoot -10's. Could you imagine that!? Actually, given that I was told you were smacking in local, I would probably respect you more if you stuck with F1-F8. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Boom ChickaBoom Caldari Friendly Pod Poppers	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:06:00 - [521] I dont want to seem like an arse but could someone please lock this thread it has gone way off topic. i Is always at the top of the new post with the dumb good to be back post. i do not like scrolling through walls of text and I do not like scrolling through walls of the same posts that have run there course. Again someone please do the right thing and lock this thread.
Adrian Steel Caldari The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:06:00 - [522] Originally by: Janu Hull Actually, given that I was told you were smacking in local, I would probably respect you more if you stuck with F1-F8. I was told your mother was a toothless prostitute, and I would probably respect you more if you stuck to issues that you are in a position to discuss.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:14:00 - [523] Originally by: Jade Constantine Are you currently shooting us? When I asked you to clarify the issue you clammed up and stopped answering questions. Who are you speaking for when you say "the rest of us". At the moment I think your hostility is "forum only hostility" but I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this particular point. I am not currently shooting at anyone. When I arrived in Providence, I had a ratting ship and 6 million ISK. Not exactly in a position to be engaging ANYONE. That situation changed dramatically over the weekend. I'll be seeing you around, and I will not be alone. ;) In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:35:00 - [524] Originally by: Janu Hull I am not currently shooting at anyone. When I arrived in Providence, I had a ratting ship and 6 million ISK. Not exactly in a position to be engaging ANYONE. That situation changed dramatically over the weekend. I'll be seeing you around, and I will not be alone. ;) Can you now confirm then that DMC will be firing on Star Fraction? I would appreciate it if you would be good enough to get one of your alliance representatives to contact us with a heads up of their intended aggression if this is the case. Beyond the extremely cheap and cheesy "surprise attack" aspect of getting first shots on our ships I just can't see why you are delaying making this official if you intend to fire on our ships anyways. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:52:00 - [525] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull I am not currently shooting at anyone. When I arrived in Providence, I had a ratting ship and 6 million ISK. Not exactly in a position to be engaging ANYONE. That situation changed dramatically over the weekend. I'll be seeing you around, and I will not be alone. ;) Can you now confirm then that DMC will be firing on Star Fraction? I would appreciate it if you would be good enough to get one of your alliance representatives to contact us with a heads up of their intended aggression if this is the case. Beyond the extremely cheap and cheesy "surprise attack" aspect of getting first shots on our ships I just can't see why you are delaying making this official if you intend to fire on our ships anyways. Jade, Jade, Jade, you disappoint me so. You talk to me like I'm some kind of pawn of my alliance. Where is this glorious philosophy of yours about being free of the chains of power structures when you face a challenge with a request for someone higher in the chain of command? I can assure you, I am fully capable of acting on my own initiative. Others may follow, and they may be alliance members, or they may not. You never know. Individual initiative is unpredictable like that. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Liet Traep Minmatar D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.12 06:14:00 - [526] As a stealth bomber fan i love this tactic. I've always thought Stealth Bombers are used en masse for a massive alpha strike. I've never had the fortune to be in a really big gang of them though. Even in smaller gangs they can be nasty. [green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgame
royal killer Amarr The Funkalistic SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.22 23:42:00 - [527] 2 thumbs up for a great post Know its a bit late, but i just found this post and its awesome --------------------
Inosin Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.02.23 17:59:00 - [528] Ever thought about using real bombs for bombing? With 8-10 Bombers you can do abbout 30k-50k Damage or more in 10 Seconds. If you have 50 Bombers you can attack in 5 waves (a wave every 10 seconds) and do 150k Damage to everything in 15km Range in under a Minute. Then all leftBombers cancome for a second Attack. And Bombs make shiny and nice looking explosions this should provide fun too.
greeny knight Amarr Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2008.02.23 19:33:00 - [529] ***rrrrrrr......... 30 days left . . . . . . . . . I shall return No not the straitjacket ....... not .... the .....pi..llllll..ssss Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.02.23 21:01:00 - [530] Edited by: marakor on 23/02/2008 21:05:45 Originally by: Inosin Ever thought about using real bombs for bombing? With 8-10 Bombers you can do abbout 30k-50k Damage or more in 10 Seconds. If you have 50 Bombers you can attack in 5 waves (a wave every 10 seconds) and do 150k Damage to everything in 15km Range in under a Minute. Then all leftBombers cancome for a second Attack. And Bombs make shiny and nice looking explosions this should provide fun too. I understand what you want to do but id suggest you spend a bit of time on the test server before you make tactical suggestions on how to use bombs. A group of us tried out differing anti fleet/blob tactics on the test server using bombers and although we had some good successes its a bit more complicated than just using waves if you wish too kill more than just a couple of ships. HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve.
Crimsonjade Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.02.24 02:27:00 - [531] Originally by: Jade Constantine For a true alternative you need to break free of the concept of "my enemy must automatically be your enemy" which is at the root of all imperialist dogma on the 0.0 frontier. god i missed your posting on the forums :)
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.02.24 07:50:00 - [532] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: Jade Constantine On the contrary, we are promoting the essential truth behind the nature of true NRDS, which is an actual respect for neutrality and the freedom and confidence to judge other neutral entities in 0.0 based on their actions rather than what other third party entities might say about them. CVA already does this. You can go away now. Well they clearly don't Janu Hull. Hence this discussion. What they actually do is misreport other NRDS entities as "pirates" thereby fooling neutrals into shooting neutrals. If you want to disprove my contention you are going to have to put some work into actually "disproving" it. It all depends on what you call a pirate. To me, piracy is killing/ransoming somebody for loot/isk. It is all a moral judgement, so it is a subjective term. IRON has an NBSI policy, even though some of our "blues" reguarly shoot our other "blues". we simply don't get involved, unless there are prior treaty agreements that need to be honored. The problem with your thinking Jade, is that in any system with finite resources, there is no true Neutrality. Organizations compete for space and resources. "neutral" simply means you haven't ****ed somebody off enough to set you red. Red means you are actively hunted, Neutral means not going to far out of the way to kill.

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