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Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.	Posted - 2008.01.13 07:22:00 - [1] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 13/01/2008 07:22:34 What exactly was changed that turned Amarr from the pwnage race to the "why bother" race? I've heard that lasers used to need half the cap that they do now and that was changed and Amarr got their cap use bonus. Is that the whole story, or was it something else? -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Warrio Mining Bytes Inc. Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.13 07:54:00 - [2] The cap use thing is part of it. The turning point for the Geddon in particular was when stackign penalties were introduced meaning that you couldn't fill your 8 lows with damage mods and BBQ everything on sight. Sig removed due to being too freaking awsome. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Deckard Cain
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation Ltd.	Posted - 2008.01.13 07:57:00 - [3] So the stacking penalty - which affected everything - and the cap penalty were the only changes? What bonuses did ships like the Geddon have before the laser cap change? -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
xyeLz	Posted - 2008.01.13 09:10:00 - [4] Ooh the days of the Zealot.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.13 09:17:00 - [5] Originally by: xyeLz Ooh the days of the Zealot. Yeah, now the dps is lol for a gank hac. "The Zealot is built almost exclusively as a laser platform, designed to wreak as much havoc as its energy beams can be made to. As a vanguard vessel, its thick armor and dazzling destructive power make it capable of cutting through enemy fleets with striking ease. Zealots are currently being mass-produced by Viziam for the Amarr Navy." This is pretty lol today. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Arrak1s	Posted - 2008.01.13 09:18:00 - [6] The Mega Pulse nerf when it happened wasn't fun. There's the fact that the other races can choose damage types and change them on the fly, but mostly i think it's the cap hamstring that turned Ammar from PWNAGE! to WTF?
Minerva Moore	Posted - 2008.01.13 12:04:00 - [7] Edited by: Minerva Moore on 13/01/2008 12:05:31 No problem I'll give you a history lesson on Amarr: "The modern Amarr is mostly about whining. Early on Amarr got along like the other races but at some point a genetic mutation took place. The condition is now threatens to ruin the race forever. The mutated gene has recently been identified by scientists. Commonly known as The Whiner, this gene causes the subject to spend less time actually playing Eve and more time whining in the forums about how hard their life is and how much their ships suck. Aproximately 46% of all Amarr pilots seem to be affected by this condition. The remaining 54% spend there time in 0.0 where they can be seen happily flying their supposedly nerfed-to-death underpowered ships to good effect."
Mavil	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:51:00 - [8] Edited by: Mavil on 13/01/2008 13:51:39 If you want a really long list, I suggest you ask Jonny JoJo.
CptEagle Gallente Genius Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.13 13:59:00 - [9] Edited by: CptEagle on 13/01/2008 14:01:06 The stacking penatly was always there, but they changed it to be much more harsh. Then they nerfed the range of Mega Pulse Lasers as well. Edit: Then they boosted EANM's (by adding the compensation skills) so EM resistance got VERY high on armor tanked ships using them.
Sergo Mor'Zert	Posted - 2008.01.13 15:00:00 - [10] Well there were many nerfs/balancing but 2 things that really changed amarr: -stacking penality added to dmg mods removed amarr from FOTM and pwnage reincarneted back in line to other ships (amarr than was balanced and good race) -added compenstaion skill made EANM viable option... not only that but also a must have in most setups, this backfired as em the dmg amarr do have very high resistances on armor, when coupled with EANM or two it increase em resistances to 70-80%... and the reason armor tank is very popular in pvp (free med slots for tackling, cap injecting, speed mod) -than introduction of redesigned damage control that started to get used in most setups and increase em resistance a little too than you ended up with weapons that do em/thermal dmg and many targets that have very high resistances against exactly that dmg type
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.01.13 16:23:00 - [11] how stuff changed for amarr throughout the years: first there were the lasers. when lasers were introduced, they were so overpowered that EVERY ship would fit them. yes, even a megathron with tachys was better than rails on it. then in means to balance them, lasers cap usage was upped to heights seen only when you try to climb the Everest. to solve this, a cap usage bonus was introduced on amarr ships. this was when they passed the bonuses that was tied to the skillbook to the ship themselves. Thus the dual bonus on ships was born. then, the gankageddon was born: T2 MPL's with 8 HS = ships that were even heavily tanked were no match for them. the ENTIRE line of pulses was nerfed here, by reducing their range and nerfing radio crystal's damage (they did EM+therm damage once upon a time...) major cryout, but the full rack of HS was still a viable gank setup. these were the days of the zealot that was better than the deimos, btw. then it came the need to buff HP, the EANM boost and the stacking nerf. 8 HS were no longer viable and most amarr ships couldn't do squat damage to the omni-tanks, because of the resistance hitting the 80/90% on EM, paired with the fact that fitting anything beyond 4 heatsinks was useless. This make fights longer, meaning that cap-dependent races like the gallente and amarr were hit the hardest. and this is somewhat how it ended up today. amarr ships slowly started to go into the oblivion, not because of the nerfs but because the boosts made lasers, and not amarr, less and less viable. in sum: lasers didn't keep up with the times, since they are pretty much still the same after nearly 4 years, bar a tracking boost on pulses, and a few changes here and there, altho nothing comparable to what all the other weapon systems went. --- planetary interaction idea!
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:09:00 - [12] enlighten me, what happened to the other guns? disclaimer: Nothing i say, do, think, or once have said, done, nor thought about can be held against me
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:13:00 - [13] Originally by: Lance Fighter enlighten me, what happened to the other guns? boosted multiple times. Hybrids got damage boosts, the missiles got changed, boosted, nerfed and boosted again, and proj have been boosted aswell --- planetary interaction idea!
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:14:00 - [14] ah, well then... it seems lasers are due for a boost >.> disclaimer: Nothing i say, do, think, or once have said, done, nor thought about can be held against me
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.13 17:42:00 - [15] Originally by: Minerva Moore Edited by: Minerva Moore on 13/01/2008 12:05:31 No problem I'll give you a history lesson on Amarr: "The modern Amarr is mostly about whining. Early on Amarr got along like the other races but at some point a genetic mutation took place. The condition is now threatens to ruin the race forever. The mutated gene has recently been identified by scientists. Commonly known as The Whiner, this gene causes the subject to spend less time actually playing Eve and more time whining in the forums about how hard their life is and how much their ships suck. Aproximately 46% of all Amarr pilots seem to be affected by this condition. The remaining 54% spend there time in 0.0 where they can be seen happily flying their supposedly nerfed-to-death underpowered ships to good effect." QFT WTS Moros
Aeron Wymond Gallente Baptism oF Fire VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.13 18:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Mavil Edited by: Mavil on 13/01/2008 13:51:39 If you want a really long list, I suggest you ask Jonny JoJo. don't encourage him!!!!!! mind you it would be good for a laugh
Jonny MoJo Amarr	Posted - 2008.01.14 10:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Mavil Edited by: Mavil on 13/01/2008 13:51:39 If you want a really long list, I suggest you ask Jonny JoJo. My Twin Brother, JoJo is..... in statsis for two weeks currently. However, there is not much that needs to be fixed with Amarr. Just the stuff that a capsule goes into. Thats all. Refresh for next Real life CCP Sig(21 Total)
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.01.14 17:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Jonny MoJo However, there is not much that needs to be fixed with Amarr. Just the stuff that goes into the capsule. Thats all. huh? WTS Moros
chrisss0r	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:37:00 - [19] I think the jovian disease spread among the amarr. The jovians were whing about there ships beeing ****** up so they totally concentrated on improving their technology that they were far overpowered and now whine for the other races to be to weak so in some wird logic the jovians are broken for they cannot have a fair fight. outcome is they kill theirselfs. As amarr are very believing they do not do as much research as the jovians but pray to their gods to improve their ships all the time. Suggestion: The amarr who caught the disease should follow the wise jovians and just kill themselves....
Doctor Sunshine Irata III Trek Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.14 22:19:00 - [20] off topic, the talk of pre-stacking nerf days raised nostalgic memories. non stacking shield hardeners anybody? ridiculoso i hark
Si Delane Sector 7 Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:18:00 - [21] Yah :) let's get rid of stacking nerf so I can make a 10,000 dps omnitank passive scorpion. I mean, it'll eventually kill a gankgeddon. Eventually. But yes, Amarr are fine. Lasers are broken. Fix lasers cap use, give all Amarr ships a roleish bonus to fit them so we don't go back to the old days of fitting lasers on megas. Maybe give some Amarr ships damage bonuses instead of cap bonuses. ------------------------- Actually this IS my main.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.01.15 08:19:00 - [22] Originally by: grimpak then, the gankageddon was born: T2 MPL's with 8 HS = ships that were even heavily tanked were no match for them. The stacking nerf was introduced long before the first tech2 miners, let alone t2 MPL's (heck we didn't even have battleship sized rats back then :>). Heck back then omens with a full rack of HS's where more popular then gheddons since hardly anyone could afford battleships. Anyways it has been a multitude of nerfs/boosts that it's kinda pointless to list em all. --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Caffeine Junkie Celestial Frontier Inc Celestial Frontier	Posted - 2008.01.15 09:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Doctor Sunshine off topic, the talk of pre-stacking nerf days raised nostalgic memories. non stacking shield hardeners anybody? ridiculoso i hark and twin-MWD battleships! All of you who whine about nano-hacs these days have no idea how good you have it compared to then! Quote: If you need a reminder of the deterrent effect of CONCORD, just remember the number of ships you pass in highsec that don't frag you on sight.
Man'corr Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:48:00 - [24] woah, this thread brings back memories. My biggest personal nerf was the cap power relay..... Amarr had perfect active shield tanks then, even with ridiculous laser cap usage. permarunning both guns and a big shield booster. Well now with EANMs and EM armor compensation skills :S Meh....... I mean why shield tank, if you dont have med slots left for tackling and other EW mods..... Its not the ships i love them, its just the guns.....the other races have some form of choosing damage type, or at least having a damage type that is kinda in the middle. All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk Back after a 4 Year Hiatus. Damn whats Capital ships?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:16:00 - [25] Originally by: Grimpak the ENTIRE line of pulses was nerfed here, by reducing their range and nerfing radio crystal's damage (they did EM+therm damage once upon a time...) To complete this. Once upon a time, radio did Small: 8 damage Medium: 16 damage Large: 32 damage With no difference in range. Compare to artillery with Carb Lead at 6 and Rails with Iron at 5
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:54:00 - [26] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Jonny MoJo However, there is not much that needs to be fixed with Amarr. Just the stuff that goes into the capsule. Thats all. huh? he means amarr ships its more of a every amarr ship has the same role, shoot lasers (ok the kandid mk2, and arbitrator are different but that still leaves a majority of ships) and well one ship in each category generally is best at one thing. then theres things like the deimos getting boosted so it can fit 5 of neutrons, it already had a 50m3 drone bay, where the zealot only has 4 turret hardpoints and no drone bay. or say when it comes to battleships, amarr ships require 2 fitting mods minimum to fit tachyons, and multiple cap mods + cap rigs to be cap stable. add some tracking comps/heatsinks and well no tank whatsoever. geddon/abbadon with mega pulse is quite nice though. wonder how a small battle between pulse boats would go with blaster boats. 5v5 geddons and megas, or deimos and zealot.
tehnomage Amarr Rubra Libertas Militia Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.15 13:58:00 - [27] see it as you like, I don't give a rats ass on your opinion, see it as whining or not, these are facts. well let's see : 1. ammo damage nerf + cap nerf + range nerf + most part of damage being em damage == bye bye laser uberness 2. eanm + compensation skills == high EM resists on average setups, see above. 3. stacking penalty killed the ships that had no armor at the expense of gank damage ( see the geddon 8 heatsinks setups hehe) - first three points made the lasers a bit meh atm. 4. nos nerf == an average curse setup now requires that you at least have a mwd so you can drain anything at all, then it requires you to keep you cap low at all times, and other micromanagement thingies like it. I know many of you will say "ZOMG! its fine KKTHXBYE !ADDAPT! ok, but then, whom on earth needs to do such a thing (eg adapt, ltp, micromanage everything in a fight, and crap like that you love spamming on the forums) to use their recons ? Every other race ... NOT. 4. also nos nerf + idiotic bonuses made the pilgrim a bit crappy now, from the uber ship it used to be before. Yes yes, I know, some other people in here will argue that a ship which can solo kill stuff is overpowered. Fine, so I should only stick to attacking things I'm not ment to attack so my ship doesn't seem to be overpowered ... fine. Pilgrim used to be a great .0 roaming ship, now its a cap injector carrier, like every other amarr ship, bleah. 5. Fake bonus on the ships. I mean come on people, get real, every pvp-er that has a clue on what he is doing with an amarr ship will fly with a cap injector and the (small) hold full of cap boosters anyways, so where is the point ?:) Ok, you could argue that those bonuses work for small ships ... sorry to dissapoint you but, let's look at the crusader : "Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level". All its fine at first glance. But then, try using it like this : dual light pulses II/dual light beams II/mwd II/disruptor II, and you'll have a bit of a surprise, it won't hold you for ever hehe, and guess what, I'm not even taking a sar II into account .. so if I need to use mods just to keep those guns/mwd/scram (role thingies) running, why bother having a cap reduction bonus ? remove it, give it a damage/tracking/rof bonus and I'll gladly adapt and overcome that. And now, before you start arguing and blablaing and flaming like you people usually do when you check out EFTs and make up setups that would make a little kid die laughing, I do have all the cap skills @ 5, most of gunnery skills at 5, and so forth ... I fly a crusader, and I fly an absolution and I love them, both ... but that doesn't make them great, compared to other races ships or anything. So, if your only experience with the amarr race comes from eft, or from doing lvl4s in empire, with your 3 x CCC rigs and crap like it, please, fly away, and stop commenting on things you don't understand. Thankyou :) That's the history you need, prolly I mislooked many other things, but these are the most important facts, I guess. -- Someone once said about the "best pvp alliance in game", and I quote "DBP, if you can't beat them on the battlefield, beat them on the forums".
Caffeine Junkie Celestial Frontier Inc Celestial Frontier	Posted - 2008.01.15 14:50:00 - [28] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton wonder how a small battle between pulse boats would go with blaster boats. 5v5 geddons and megas, or deimos and zealot. Would depend entirely on range, Amarr can hit with "short-range guns" at much longer range than any other race (excluding Caldari Torps for the moment). Quote: If you need a reminder of the deterrent effect of CONCORD, just remember the number of ships you pass in highsec that don't frag you on sight.
Andreask14 Alterum - Infinitus - Fabula Dragons Of Oceans	Posted - 2008.01.15 15:13:00 - [29] The blaster boats would win because they do nearly a third more damage. The only chance the laser boats would have is to keep them at range, which they cant because the blaster boats are also faster, if fitted right,
Lil Mule	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:00:00 - [30] For those that havent flown amarr, and see all of the whining on the forums, Im sure its annoying and frustrating, however until you've flown them you might not understand. Currently, I fly Caldari, Amarr and Minmatar, so I have experience with all of the races except Gallente, and the following is my observation. Yes all races have their issues, but consider the following: With Amarr, you must have all relevant skills to that particular ship to lvl 5 in order to make it passable. What do I mean by passable? Thats a bit tougher to define, but by passable I mean that you can take it into combat (thats a good thing - but without all relevant skills at lvl 5 - you cant take it into combat), but you wont deal a significant amount of damage,or really be important/useful to your gang, and you can survive with some good decisions and player skills, but there's still a good chance you wont. Some might argue that its the same with all races, but it isnt so. The other races Ive flown dont require all relevant skills to level 5 to make the ship passable. Thats a long time to spend training to make the ship your flying mediocre at best. ie: Curse. Force Recon to lvl 5 makes it passable, in other words, the cap wont drop on you very quickly and make the ship a useless sitting duck, and you still need to spend a lot of time configuring the ship and tweaking it very carefully before taking it into combat. And thats only if you have all relevant energy skills to 5 too, plus the drone skills so you can actually deal damage. Next time your in a T2 HAC/Force Recon gang, look at the break down of ships in your gang. Notice how many are amarr. How many are Minmatar? (2/3 of your gang is probably vagabonds)How many are Gallente? How many are Caldari? (might be a tie there b/w Minmatar and Caldari - but you get the idea - most Caldari ships are oriented to PVE, but I think their HACS need a little boost for PVP too personally)
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.01.15 16:45:00 - [31] All this talk about Amarr really makes me want to fly Amarr ships just to see what the fuss is about. Problem is I'd be going from a 15mil SP ****** vetern to a (relatively speaking) 2 million SP ****** noob since almost none of my current skills transfer. Still, no matter how I look at this problem it seems the core of the issue isn't the lasers, the ships or even their cap, it's their damage output. 90% of PVPer are armor tanking which means your guns are going to do pitifully. In reality the problem is damage output - Amarr don't often have a chance to deal enough damage fast enough to overcome the rapid exhaustion of their cap, which leads to explosion. I honestly don't know what the solution is - since giving lasers another damage type would make no sense. Perhaps the replacement of the current weapon system with some sort of "directed particle cannon" would be the best bet, replacing the EM/THERM with the potential for THERM/KIN or EM/KIN or something like that. I'm sure the master scribes at CCP could divise some sort of excuse for a damage and name change without much trouble. Then for damage you would keep the stupid high cap use and just divide split the difference between Rails and Blasters. The Amarr should at least be able to put out an effective DPS of a caldari missile boat with long range guns, which as far as I can tell they currently do not.
Alowishus Pastry Coalition Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:12:00 - [32] I've been playing Eve a long time. I've seen every race suck and be uber with very little actual changes to the game. /makes fart noise
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:36:00 - [33] To add, the hitpoint increase resulted in the prevalence of cap and tanking oriented setups. Lasers and hybrids both suffered because they needed to be able to sustain their weapons for a longer time while their forte was the ability to inflict a lot of damage quick enough to take the other ship down before their cap and own tank consequently would fail. Nosferatu became more popular than ever because tanks weren't easy to break with damage and had to be killed by incapacitating the ships instead. The more recent nerf to nosferatus was a much needed relief to amarr in this regard, although it has also increased the use of neutralizers which are also devastating to weapon systems requiring considerable cap to run. Obviously, the compensation skills made EANM's more appealing instead of specific hardeners, and most armor tanks would therefore have a lot more EM resistance. They also encouraged more plate setups, as did the introduction of slave pirate implants. The competitiveness of plate setups with repper setups however is beneficial to amarr because of the reduced need for high cap and therefore cap vulnerability. Considering actual ships, amarr got the short end of the stick when Tier 2 BC's and command ships were introduced as they made to a large extent HACs without a niche role obsolete. Vagabond and Ishtar clearly have their roles, as does Eagle arguably (I would argue that Eagle needs a boost, however). Amarr then got the Khanid Mk II upgrade which made the sacriledge viable and interesting, but without a special role it still falls in the semi-obsolete category, not to mention that a new weapon system poses a handicap to most amarr pilots. Curse and pilgrim used to be very good in the nos era, perhaps too good, and the nerf hurt them a lot. From what I know, they are still useful, however. The main problem with amarr, as I see it, is that their general use gank/tank ships are neither the best or the worst in performance and lack distinct specialised roles. Blaster ships dominate them close range while projectiles have the range (and speed) advantage with falloff. Their superior capacitor is negated by high cap using guns and unlike gallente they have no pure drone ships in the HAC/BC/CS/BS classes. They lack midslots to allow for flexible setups like ECM so mostly they have to move on the gank/tank spectrum. One good thing for amarr (or less bad than for gallente and minmatar) is that drakes and ravens have become and are becoming more common, and lasers still melt shields fairly well. Post-trinity torpedoes are the unrivaled king of close range, and as such ravens will be seen more in PvP. Drakes are naturally more and more common because they perform well in both PVE and PVP and are the natural missile users' step in between cruisers and battleships. In conclusion, there are some advantageous and more unadvantageous game changes in the past that have contributed to the current situation. It is not as blatantly unbalanced as the amarr forum team would like you to believe, but real concerns exist and deserve to be looked into / addressed. --- CEO
Pan Zhu'Liang	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:03:00 - [34] in the real world lasers do thermal damage. not that i'm suggesting applying physics to the game or anything, realistic space combat wouldn't really be playable, but amarr need a damage type option and thermal is as good as any.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.01.15 20:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Pan Zhu'Liang in the real world lasers do thermal damage. not that i'm suggesting applying physics to the game or anything, realistic space combat wouldn't really be playable, but amarr need a damage type option and thermal is as good as any. Well technically thermal buildup can easily be caused by the application of large quantities of EM, assuming of course the signal is modulated to the resonance frequency of the substance (Microwave ovens for example are modulted to resonance frequency of water thus exciting the molecules causing the water to warm). My only suggestion is giving Amarr a weapon system that lets them trade EM for something else, with kinetic being the only reasonable choice (particle weapons, extreme high intensity short duration lasers and the like). I'm sure there would have to be terrible balancing acts here but in a ship class that relies so much on gank and tank, the fact that they do a damage that is highly resisted by most tanks out there (and god FORBID you're shooting at a minmitar command ship) pretty much removes their gank role. I wouldn't even think this was a problem if it werent for the absurd cap usage (though to be fair most of the ships that have cap problems are fitted soley for gank/tank vice any sort of cap stability, I don't believe that it's impossible to build an Abaddon that can fire it's guns indefinitly while repairing once in awhile though I'm sure the sacrifices are rather painful) Though I am fairly interested in a few of the missile using Amarr ships, some of them seem like they'd be outright nasty.

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