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Natural Limits of an Organization in EvE

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Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:30:00 - [1] I was wondering about this topic. It seems that alliances tend to be able to take more space then they can hold. When they over expand they tend to collapse. I am wondering what those limits are, and if people with experience in those elements could describe them further. 1. PvPers - You can only take down so many POS a day per cap ship. A single person can only hold so much space. Is there a number of PvPers that is a minimum to hold 0.0 space, and how would they be divided into support and capital ships, and is there minimum number needed per system to hold space. Once they reach blob critical mass, they will be unable to be defeated in a straight up fight. They will also need a minimum amount of players to patrol and police the space they have. It would seem to me that the minimum overall fleet size is about 2/3 server capacity, which is the size needed for victory by a blob, or about 200-300 people online and active with god pvp skills and experienced FC's at one time, or about 800-1200 people total in an alliance, depending on the region they are in. Any less and big alliances will squash them. But if they get too big they become unmanageable. 2. Logistics - How far from a central hub is practical to haul and is there a specific empire relationship that is critical for certain alliances. Is there a limit to how far is practical to have a well defended alliance border from a central production point and fitting services. How far is it practical to move a support and capital fleet on short notice, or a large gang. 3. CCP - Is there a point at which an alliance gets too big and powerful, and CCP will step in to keep the game balanced. Some people say the titan nerf and POS changes were because BoB got too powerful. If there is a limit, what is it. 4. Other factors in determining a successful alliance. Curious to know what people think. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:30:00 - [2] I was wondering about this topic. It seems that alliances tend to be able to take more space then they can hold. When they over expand they tend to collapse. I am wondering what those limits are, and if people with experience in those elements could describe them further. 1. PvPers - You can only take down so many POS a day per cap ship. A single person can only hold so much space. Is there a number of PvPers that is a minimum to hold 0.0 space, and how would they be divided into support and capital ships, and is there minimum number needed per system to hold space. Once they reach blob critical mass, they will be unable to be defeated in a straight up fight. They will also need a minimum amount of players to patrol and police the space they have. It would seem to me that the minimum overall fleet size is about 2/3 server capacity, which is the size needed for victory by a blob, or about 200-300 people online and active with god pvp skills and experienced FC's at one time, or about 800-1200 people total in an alliance, depending on the region they are in. Any less and big alliances will squash them. But if they get too big they become unmanageable. 2. Logistics - How far from a central hub is practical to haul and is there a specific empire relationship that is critical for certain alliances. Is there a limit to how far is practical to have a well defended alliance border from a central production point and fitting services. How far is it practical to move a support and capital fleet on short notice, or a large gang. 3. CCP - Is there a point at which an alliance gets too big and powerful, and CCP will step in to keep the game balanced. Some people say the titan nerf and POS changes were because BoB got too powerful. If there is a limit, what is it. 4. Other factors in determining a successful alliance. Curious to know what people think. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:43:00 - [3] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 14/01/2008 18:45:53 Originally by: Re Mi 2. Logistics - How far from a central hub is practical to haul and is there a specific empire relationship that is critical for certain alliances. Is there a limit to how far is practical to have a well defended alliance border from a central production point and fitting services. How far is it practical to move a support and capital fleet on short notice, or a large gang. Fitting services can be put at any POS, so that's not really a big issue. All the southern alliances routinely do ops where the objective is 15 jumps or more from the start point. If they're defending territory in their own space they can rapidly move about via jump bridges. Logistics is workable over great distance if you can keep a carrier fleet fueled. If you do ever need to move anything in massive bulk quantity you can either jump freighter it, or just get a gang of dozens of guys for a standard freighter escort op. Quote: 3. CCP - Is there a point at which an alliance gets too big and powerful, and CCP will step in to keep the game balanced. Some people say the titan nerf and POS changes were because BoB got too powerful. If there is a limit, what is it. This point can only be answered if sudden, significant game changes are positively linked with the Goons or RA or whoever attaining as much territory as BoB used to have. Otherwise I'd have to say the Titan and POS changes were coincidental. Besides, even when BoB was extended over the greatest territorial distance it was obvious that there wasn't any way they'd be able to control the majority of 0.0. The numbers of active pilots prevented this. Even if some coalition of all the 0.0 alliances banded together in cooperation and claimed sovereignty over the entire 0.0 area for some new super alliance, a challenger would eventually arise from Empire. Remember the number of people in Empire is vastly larger than it is in nullsec.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:43:00 - [4] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 14/01/2008 18:45:53 Originally by: Re Mi 2. Logistics - How far from a central hub is practical to haul and is there a specific empire relationship that is critical for certain alliances. Is there a limit to how far is practical to have a well defended alliance border from a central production point and fitting services. How far is it practical to move a support and capital fleet on short notice, or a large gang. Fitting services can be put at any POS, so that's not really a big issue. All the southern alliances routinely do ops where the objective is 15 jumps or more from the start point. If they're defending territory in their own space they can rapidly move about via jump bridges. Logistics is workable over great distance if you can keep a carrier fleet fueled. If you do ever need to move anything in massive bulk quantity you can either jump freighter it, or just get a gang of dozens of guys for a standard freighter escort op. Quote: 3. CCP - Is there a point at which an alliance gets too big and powerful, and CCP will step in to keep the game balanced. Some people say the titan nerf and POS changes were because BoB got too powerful. If there is a limit, what is it. This point can only be answered if sudden, significant game changes are positively linked with the Goons or RA or whoever attaining as much territory as BoB used to have. Otherwise I'd have to say the Titan and POS changes were coincidental. Besides, even when BoB was extended over the greatest territorial distance it was obvious that there wasn't any way they'd be able to control the majority of 0.0. The numbers of active pilots prevented this. Even if some coalition of all the 0.0 alliances banded together in cooperation and claimed sovereignty over the entire 0.0 area for some new super alliance, a challenger would eventually arise from Empire. Remember the number of people in Empire is vastly larger than it is in nullsec.
Shirokko Papshimar Gallente SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs TWISTED INFECTION	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:46:00 - [5] i think its not all about the pew pew its also about how good your alliance is at making friends ( diplomacy ) if you treat others with respect your less likly to be invaded every ten seconds though saying that if your to nice you might just be butt f3k3d by others thinking your weak ,, but really it all comes down to active members .. ofc you cannot have 1000 active members living in one system now can you :)
Shirokko Papshimar Gallente SwEaTy ArMpIT RaIDeRs TWISTED INFECTION	Posted - 2008.01.14 18:46:00 - [6] i think its not all about the pew pew its also about how good your alliance is at making friends ( diplomacy ) if you treat others with respect your less likly to be invaded every ten seconds though saying that if your to nice you might just be butt f3k3d by others thinking your weak ,, but really it all comes down to active members .. ofc you cannot have 1000 active members living in one system now can you :)
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:05:00 - [7] I don't think #3 has happened yet. The Titan nerf came because Titans were badly misbalanced. BoB simply utilized them because they had the resources to do so while most did not. However, we'll still soon get to the point where organizations have so many Titans that fighting them becomes basically undoable. Titans being untackable except by stuff that is small enough to DD out of existence mean that cross-covering Titans become very secure. We'll give it another 6 months and I think they'll need to remove the unable to be scrambled ability from Titans.
D'ceet Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Mistress Suffering I don't think #3 has happened yet. The Titan nerf came because Titans were badly misbalanced. BoB simply utilized them because they had the resources to do so while most did not. However, we'll still soon get to the point where organizations have so many Titans that fighting them becomes basically undoable. Titans being untackable except by stuff that is small enough to DD out of existence mean that cross-covering Titans become very secure. We'll give it another 6 months and I think they'll need to remove the unable to be scrambled ability from Titans. i also believe that titans are gonna get nerfed again shortly - but i don't believe that everyone will be flying in a titan...this can be to a cap limit how many an alliance has per member base.
Manas The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.14 19:47:00 - [9] Prediction: Spider-repping caps super-blobs and overlapping DD Titan gangs will make Eve borning for a while. Then CCP will add capital sized supercap jump/warp supression modules which fit on Carriers/dreads, and Death-star like Titan super weapon (anti-cap/super cap/pos) on Titans to soften another Titan DD nerf. "You become what you pretend to be." TGRAD info and BRUCE info
Jane Spondogolo NoobWaffe	Posted - 2008.01.14 22:45:00 - [10] Edited by: Jane Spondogolo on 14/01/2008 22:45:51 Originally by: Mistress Suffering I don't think #3 has happened yet. The Titan nerf came because Titans were badly misbalanced. BoB simply utilized them because they had the resources to do so while most did not. However, we'll still soon get to the point where organizations have so many Titans that fighting them becomes basically undoable. Titans being untackable except by stuff that is small enough to DD out of existence mean that cross-covering Titans become very secure. We'll give it another 6 months and I think they'll need to remove the unable to be scrambled ability from Titans. Yeah. Titans just generate so much blobbing, I think CCP either needs to just cut em lose , or do something like make them remote-rep immune as well as ewar immune. The spider-repped titan thing that happens really makes them pretty unkillable without extreme blobbing. I still think titans should be limited to one per system (including for either side. If I get my titan in, tough luck to your side. Plan ahead!) ______ Unrepentant Southern Federation Cheerleader.
The Mittani GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:02:00 - [11] one day we will hit our natural limit when we run out of butte jokes
Westly Synpa GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:08:00 - [12] Originally by: The Mittani one day we will hit our natural limit when we run out of butte jokes there can never be enough buttes.
x bunny The Rabbit Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.14 23:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Westly Synpa Originally by: The Mittani one day we will hit our natural limit when we run out of butte jokes there can never be enough buttes. GS is living proof.
Cvuos GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 00:03:00 - [14] The formula is simple. (buttes(1/pos + sqrt(lolz-drama))/(dongues*truesec)
Ungdall Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 03:05:00 - [15] Originally by: D'ceet Originally by: Mistress Suffering I don't think #3 has happened yet. The Titan nerf came because Titans were badly misbalanced. BoB simply utilized them because they had the resources to do so while most did not. However, we'll still soon get to the point where organizations have so many Titans that fighting them becomes basically undoable. Titans being untackable except by stuff that is small enough to DD out of existence mean that cross-covering Titans become very secure. We'll give it another 6 months and I think they'll need to remove the unable to be scrambled ability from Titans. i also believe that titans are gonna get nerfed again shortly - but i don't believe that everyone will be flying in a titan...this can be to a cap limit how many an alliance has per member base. As terrible as CCP is at this game, they will never set an arbitrary limit to how many ships of any type one group can posses. There's stepping to to preserve game mechanics balance, and there's stepping in and playing god.
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.01.15 03:38:00 - [16] Originally by: The Mittani one day we will hit our natural limit when we run out of butte jokes I heard one Goon quote of about 500 hard core pvpers in Goonfleet. I would bet that puts you at 750 people on line and active at any one time in Goonswarm and spread over 130 systems in 3 geographic areas stretching from the Great Wildlands to Paragon Soul. You would need to split your fleets into at least three parts or more if you ever end up on defense again. Thats if my math is right. You may be at your natural limit of how much space you can control. If you want more space you will need to grow Goonswarm. To take over Delve and hold it, for example, along with everything you have now, Goonswarm would need to grow by roughly a quarter to one third if my math is correct. You would need a lot more buttes. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Ju Ming Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 03:48:00 - [17] Re Mi - aka - BoB Alt trying to create some anti Goon feeling Thank you for being concerned about how spread out Goon are in the game. Given that Goon dont use the Tenant system but i guess we will need to use some inovation, thank you for the concern. Any more BoB alts wanting to post? Sig locked, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please email [email protected] ~Saint
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.01.15 04:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Ju Ming Re Mi - aka - BoB Alt trying to create some anti Goon feeling Thank you for being concerned about how spread out Goon are in the game. Given that Goon dont use the Tenant system but i guess we will need to use some inovation, thank you for the concern. Any more BoB alts wanting to post? Fail and wrong. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.01.15 04:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Ju Ming Re Mi - aka - BoB Alt trying to create some anti Goon feeling Thank you for being concerned about how spread out Goon are in the game. Given that Goon dont use the Tenant system but i guess we will need to use some inovation, thank you for the concern. Any more BoB alts wanting to post? Also, I didn't say you needed that force to take Delve, you need it to HOLD delve. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Ju Ming Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 05:52:00 - [20] geez this sily alt just posts and posts and posts ,, Sig locked, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please email [email protected] ~Saint
Stahlregen GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 06:30:00 - [21] Hey du you guys liek mudkips?
Re Mi Caldari Funshine Unlimited	Posted - 2008.01.15 07:03:00 - [22] Originally by: Ju Ming geez this sily alt just posts and posts and posts ,, If I were a BoB alt, why would I presume that you have taken and are in Delve and bother calculating the forces you need to hold that space over the long term? That does not make any sense. Why are you wasting your trolls on me? Maybe you should save them for people who are actually attacking you. Funshine Unlimited - An Industrial Services Corporation
Baxalusx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 10:43:00 - [23] the idea is good, but your numbers and conclusions are moronic because you don't factor in leadership competence, which is really the bottleneck in how big an organization can grow --------- ~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~
Ralania Kerin Minmatar Ardent Industrialists	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:30:00 - [24] Originally by: Baxalusx the idea is good, but your numbers and conclusions are moronic because you don't factor in leadership competence, which is really the bottleneck in how big an organization can grow Well, since you're good enough to pass judgment on the attempt maybe you'd like to provide some actual information instead of running your mouth?
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:37:00 - [25] Originally by: Ralania Kerin Originally by: Baxalusx the idea is good, but your numbers and conclusions are moronic because you don't factor in leadership competence, which is really the bottleneck in how big an organization can grow Well, since you're good enough to pass judgment on the attempt maybe you'd like to provide some actual information instead of running your mouth? GS have said time and again that they will proly self destruct after bob is dead. Mittens producing actual facts??? LOL that will be a first pal you should ask him to provide crappy and overly used one line insults its all he ever does.
Nekumi Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:40:00 - [26] Originally by: Ralania Kerin Originally by: Baxalusx the idea is good, but your numbers and conclusions are moronic because you don't factor in leadership competence, which is really the bottleneck in how big an organization can grow Well, since you're good enough to pass judgment on the attempt maybe you'd like to provide some actual information instead of running your mouth? well imagine a massive alliance with someone like marakor at the helm, obviously it would be doomed to complete and utter failure and would reflect purely on the leader now imagine the biggest collection of idiots the world has ever seen but somehow despite everything they still manage to achieve stuff, it would take one hell of a leader to accomplish something like that
Natas Dog GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Nekumi well imagine a massive alliance with someone like marakor at the helm, obviously it would be doomed to complete and utter failure and would reflect purely on the leader now imagine the biggest collection of idiots the world has ever seen but somehow despite everything they still manage to achieve stuff, it would take one hell of a leader to accomplish something like that This right here pretty much sums it up. A competent and charismatic leader pretty much defines the limits of an alliance's abilities. Competence to define and follow through whatever goals he sets for the alliance; and charismatic to persuade people to actually want to contribute towards those goals. That said, Sesfan is #1.
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:05:00 - [28] Edited by: marakor on 15/01/2008 19:06:33 Originally by: Re Mi I was wondering about this topic. It seems that alliances tend to be able to take more space then they can hold. When they over expand they tend to collapse. I am wondering what those limits are, and if people with experience in those elements could describe them further. 1. PvPers - You can only take down so many POS a day per cap ship. A single person can only hold so much space. Is there a number of PvPers that is a minimum to hold 0.0 space, and how would they be divided into support and capital ships, and is there minimum number needed per system to hold space. Once they reach blob critical mass, they will be unable to be defeated in a straight up fight. They will also need a minimum amount of players to patrol and police the space they have. It would seem to me that the minimum overall fleet size is about 2/3 server capacity, which is the size needed for victory by a blob, or about 200-300 people online and active with god pvp skills and experienced FC's at one time, or about 800-1200 people total in an alliance, depending on the region they are in. Any less and big alliances will squash them. But if they get too big they become unmanageable. 2. Logistics - How far from a central hub is practical to haul and is there a specific empire relationship that is critical for certain alliances. Is there a limit to how far is practical to have a well defended alliance border from a central production point and fitting services. How far is it practical to move a support and capital fleet on short notice, or a large gang. 3. CCP - Is there a point at which an alliance gets too big and powerful, and CCP will step in to keep the game balanced. Some people say the titan nerf and POS changes were because BoB got too powerful. If there is a limit, what is it. 4. Other factors in determining a successful alliance. Curious to know what people think. The answer to your questiuon is quite simple and we have the answer spaming the forums quite regularly. Their are no realistic limits in eve, look at GS for example it almost totaly populated with eve's failiures but because of how the game is set these losers now can bunch up and actualy gain a bit of space. They are consciously or subconsciously well aware as individuals or smaller groups that they would get nowhere if the game did not support the blob so they create what they consider to be a unfeeling persona and make forums posts like "we do not care about respect" or "we have all those regions now". While on the very same forums taking the **** out of bob for their posts about "we did not want those regions anyway" and "all we want is pvp so we can never lose" but goons never see the irony that their entire existance is because of the same failiure. By goons measure they are a great success as we can all see plastered all over the forums virtualy every day (from ppl who hate respect lol). But personaly when i fly with my main i much prefer to be able to see what is happening and spending hours watching a frozen screen so i can brag on CAOD how much space my alliance owns (space id proly never see or use) seems like a total waste of money to me.
Stahlregen GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:11:00 - [29] Originally by: marakor Edited by: marakor on 15/01/2008 19:08:49 Originally by: Re Mi I was wondering about this topic. It seems that alliances tend to be able to take more space then they can hold. When they over expand they tend to collapse. I am wondering what those limits are, and if people with experience in those elements could describe them further. 1. PvPers - You can only take down so many POS a day per cap ship. A single person can only hold so much space. Is there a number of PvPers that is a minimum to hold 0.0 space, and how would they be divided into support and capital ships, and is there minimum number needed per system to hold space. Once they reach blob critical mass, they will be unable to be defeated in a straight up fight. They will also need a minimum amount of players to patrol and police the space they have. It would seem to me that the minimum overall fleet size is about 2/3 server capacity, which is the size needed for victory by a blob, or about 200-300 people online and active with god pvp skills and experienced FC's at one time, or about 800-1200 people total in an alliance, depending on the region they are in. Any less and big alliances will squash them. But if they get too big they become unmanageable. 2. Logistics - How far from a central hub is practical to haul and is there a specific empire relationship that is critical for certain alliances. Is there a limit to how far is practical to have a well defended alliance border from a central production point and fitting services. How far is it practical to move a support and capital fleet on short notice, or a large gang. 3. CCP - Is there a point at which an alliance gets too big and powerful, and CCP will step in to keep the game balanced. Some people say the titan nerf and POS changes were because BoB got too powerful. If there is a limit, what is it. 4. Other factors in determining a successful alliance. Curious to know what people think. The answer to your questiuon is quite simple and we have the answer spaming the forums quite regularly. Their are no realistic limits in eve, look at GS for example it almost totaly populated with eve's failiures but because of how the game is set these losers now can bunch up and actualy gain a bit of space. They are consciously or subconsciously well aware as individuals or smaller groups that they would get nowhere if the game did not support the blob so they create what they consider to be a unfeeling persona and make forums posts like "we do not care about respect" or "we have all those regions now". While on the very same forums taking the **** out of bob for their posts about "we did not want those regions anyway" and "all we want is pvp so we can never lose" but goons never see the irony that their entire existance is because of the same failiure. By goons measure they are a great success as we can all see plastered all over the forums virtualy every day (from ppl who hate respect lol). But personaly when i fly with my main i much prefer to be able to see what is happening and spending hours watching a frozen screen so i can brag on CAOD how much space my alliance owns (space id proly never see or use) seems like a total waste of money to me. FACT: in any other game a entity like goons does not exist because in eve holding or taking space is not a skill its sheer number crunching. So do you actually put effort into ensuring your posts do not make sense or does it just kinda happen by accident, Like when you're trying to bash out 5 paragraphs that could probably condensed into a single line; "goons are dumb"?
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:12:00 - [30] Edited by: marakor on 15/01/2008 19:13:23 Originally by: Stahlregen So do you actually put effort into ensuring your posts do not make sense or does it just kinda happen by accident, Like when you're trying to bash out 5 paragraphs that could probably condensed into a single line; "goons are dumb"? i do not want ppl to get my posts confused with mittens and its hardly my fault if you too low brow to "get my posts".

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