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malcotch Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:29:00 - [1] My Catalyst was destroyed in 0.4sec space yesterday. I was busy setting containers in an asteroid field, ready to warp to a safe bookmark in space. But I got targeted by a Pilgrim that was cloaked, before I could warp. I was warp scrambled and my energy was depleted in a few seconds. I do not understand why such a powerful ship would target a destroyer, my wreck was still intact and I managed to get some cargo back. So I was not targeted for loot. I also do not have any kill rights against the Pilot, why is this?, is it because I have kill rights against someone else which has not expired? Is there any defense that can be taken against a Pilgrim, that would enable me to warp out of harms way? I also have to decide on my next ship and my budget will be <10mil, is it best to go the Assault ship or Interceptor route and would these ships be able to avoid Pilgrims etc. Or is it best to keep out of low sec space until I'm sufficiently trained to use cruisers?
Tzar'rim Minmatar Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:33:00 - [2] Originally by: malcotch My Catalyst was destroyed in 0.4sec space yesterday. I was busy setting containers in an asteroid field, ready to warp to a safe bookmark in space. But I got targeted by a Pilgrim that was cloaked, before I could warp. I was warp scrambled and my energy was depleted in a few seconds. I do not understand why such a powerful ship would target a destroyer, my wreck was still intact and I managed to get some cargo back. So I was not targeted for loot. I also do not have any kill rights against the Pilot, why is this?, is it because I have kill rights against someone else which has not expired? Is there any defense that can be taken against a Pilgrim, that would enable me to warp out of harms way? I also have to decide on my next ship and my budget will be <10mil, is it best to go the Assault ship or Interceptor route and would these ships be able to avoid Pilgrims etc. Or is it best to keep out of low sec space until I'm sufficiently trained to use cruisers? Don't be in low sec unless you have some friends or you really know what you're doing. Apart from that there's nothing much you can do against a Pilgrim, if he attacks he does so because he knows he'll win. If you bring more friends he simply won't attack. So your best answer still is; bring friends. He killed you because you let him, it's as simple as that really. Being in a cruiser wouldn't have saved you, even a battlecruiser can be easy pickings for a Pilgrim provided the BC isn't a drake or myrm. Essentially your'e worse off bringing bigger ships to low sec because all that does is make you slower and make you a bigger, fatter target. Imo, if you have no REAL reason to be in low sec, stay out of it till you do, or till you really know how to handle it.
MoP342 Calamitous Enterprise	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:43:00 - [3] I think you only get kill rights if you get killed (podded), not if you ship gets destroyed.
Mephistophilis Cygnus Alpha Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:44:00 - [4] What is it you like doing? Then we can guide you. I set out in low sec after just a few days in eve with my main char. And that was back when you started with about 80K skill points, trying to rat in my kessi in a 0.3 system was tough with so little skills and i got attacked quite a few times by pies. It's fine to do that as long s you understand the risks and you can afford to replace the ships you'll loose. Personally i think the a/f is a great ship to at least train for because it meens you get the core skills to lvl5 and you'll do ok as long as you dont get neuted like you did. But ratting and missions they are solid. Interceptors again are well worth training for, they are not great for ratting but you stand a better chance of escaping a pie, or at the least he may think you'r part of a trap so wont want to get involved. IMO the greatest ship ever to come out of gallente race was the Thorax, it's the sole reason i ditched all caldary junk and trained pure gallente. I'm around after about 5:00 pm eve time if you need more advice or contact Irvin (my main, same corp)
Mephistophilis Cygnus Alpha Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:45:00 - [5] Originally by: MoP342 I think you only get kill rights if you get killed (podded), not if you ship gets destroyed. No you get killrights if you ship is destroyed, but not if you attack back/defend your self. Or if there was some way you flagged yourself against him like looting his can
Falka Lakadaka Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:48:00 - [6] Edited by: Falka Lakadaka on 15/01/2008 11:50:36 Rather than go with a bigger ship (which is a bigger, slower target), if you want to avoid get warp scrammed then go with a smaller more agile ship. There's 2 ways to go here (one I consider right and one I consider wrong): 1) fit warp core stabilisers to prevent warp scrambling, but this also makes you bigger and slower, thus you may still die because it takes longer to align and warp. 2) fit agility modules (nanofiber internal structure, inertia stabs) - to get into warp faster. If he tries to warp scramble you and you're already in warp, then you're safe. Let's face it, you're nor going to tank the damage, so why wait around. If you haven't worked it out, here's the answer: Don't get me wrong, WCS have their place....but I think in low sec for a newbie you will be better off with a small agile ship. Either way, if you're in low sec, always make sure you're lined up to a gate or planet and travelling at at least 10m/s. This will reduce the time to warp. If you're travelling at above 75% of your max speed you'll warp almost instantly if you're aligned. Don't use afterburners or MWDs to get into warp - it's 75% of max speed and if you've got an AB/MWD going then your max speed is higher and it can take longer to warp. NB: To line up to a gate or planet, select it in space and then double click just above/below/beside it (not on it- - you need to be within 5 degrees to be aligned). PS: Small agile ships are also cheaper to replace than bigger slower ones, and they die less often if flown right. Cheers Falka ________________________________________ Check out the Guides Sticky for answers to many questions
Durzel	Posted - 2008.01.15 11:51:00 - [7] Originally by: malcotch I do not understand why such a powerful ship would target a destroyer, my wreck was still intact and I managed to get some cargo back. So I was not targeted for loot. No offence but this seems to be one of the biggest mistakes people make. The reason he attacked you is "because they could", it's that simple and is enough of a reason for most pirates.
Mephistophilis Cygnus Alpha Syndicate	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:04:00 - [8] Originally by: Falka Lakadaka Edited by: Falka Lakadaka on 15/01/2008 11:50:36 Rather than go with a bigger ship (which is a bigger, slower target), if you want to avoid get warp scrammed then go with a smaller more agile ship. 1) fit warp core stabilisers to prevent warp scrambling, but this also makes you bigger and slower, thus you may still die because it takes longer to align and warp. We need to know what his plans are before saying weather to go bigger or smaller. Also, wcs do not make you slower or bigger. they decrease you locking range and scan resolution.
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:22:00 - [9] Avoiding certain ships is very hard especially those that fit cloaks, as for what to do next, its really up to what you intend to do to make cash and what you enjoy. If you enjoy running missions, then get a cruiser and try your hand at level 2s, stay out of lowsec. If you enjoy mining, get a mining cruiser and either mine in highsec belts (be careful of canflippers) or mission deadspaces (you might also want to look into exploration and buy bookmarks for hidden belts off explorers in your area). If you enjoy the thrill of PvP and the adrenaline rush of combat against a real player, then get loads of cheap ships and go out looking for fights. learn as much as you can from your deaths and enjoy yourself. read the stickies about scanner use, pirating, losec survival, etc. dont expect many kills. The best bit of advice i can give is: EVE is not a solo game, bring friends. We come for our people
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.15 12:45:00 - [10] Since the OP was setting up secure cans in an asteroid belt, i assume he was preparing to mine the belt. That was also the main mistake. Secure cans protect against ore theft, which is the least of your worries in low sec. In fact, not many ore thieves steal just to get the ore you mined. They steal because they hope to be given attack rights on your mining ship full of T2 mining lasers, mining upgrades and T2 drones. That issue is a moot point in low sec because most low sec pirates sooner take pride in their low security rating than that they are repelled by it. There are no sentry guns in asteroid belts, and in low sec CONCORD doesn't come to your rescue. The best thing to do when mining in low sec is to use a frigate with a large cargo hold (the astrometrics frigates are good for this) and just mine your hold full before jetting off to the nearest base. This is called ninja mining. There is a variant that uses a jetcan but it is more risky as it requires you bringing a slow to align hauler into a pirate hotspot. Alternatively mine with an armed escort watching your back. Some industrial corps run armed mining expeditions in low sec. I find it odd that the pirate didn't loot your wreck though. He must have been purely after the kill mail. That or he found he had jumped the gun too soon and shot a ship with only a handful of GSC's rather than one full of T2 modules and named loot. Of course he could have assumed you were after the rats there(not a bad assumption as the original purpose of destroyers is as heavy small gunboat) and blew you up just to eliminate the competition. You jumped to safespot too late. When you see a hostile enter the system you should assume he is after you and safespot immediately rather than try to finish the task you set out to do before jumping out. And until you learn to recognize who is hostile and who is not, assume EVERYONE in low sec is trying to blow you to smithereens and is flying toward you the moment they entered system. A little paranoia goes a long way in EVE.
malcotch Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:33:00 - [11] Thanks for your help In answer to some of the questions: My main aim is to enjoy Eve, I'm starting out trying a bit of everything, before I specialise or join a corp. I'm not sure if this is the best option. I'm mainly doing lvl1 missions, a bit of mining and targeting NPCs for the loot, I also want to try salvaging and manufacturing. I'm trying to find the most lucrative path to obtaining skill, ships and equipment, hence why I was venturing into low sec space. But if I'm likely to loose ships then I'd probably get better returns by sticking to high sec! My characters main skill is engineering but I'm training up on as much as possible to lvl3/4 on skills as required. My main requirement is to try and get a good +ve standing and I'm not interested in pirating or anything that will give me negative standing. But I do want to get good PVP skills. My goal is to have a battle cruiser etc, locked and loaded one jump away from where I am, then if I loose a cheaper ship, then I will get a chance to exercise my kill rights and get some pvp experience. I do realise I'm a long way from this point though!! It seems that pirates will only attack if everything is in their favour and they will easily win. I'm happy using a slasher or other frigate for low sec jaunts, but could an assault ship or Interceptor be fitted totally for defence and likely to get away from most threats and is there a way of defending against NOS, can it be counteracted with NOS? Also as some skills are quite expensive are there any agents that give them for rewards to their missions. I seem to find the lvl1 missions a bit repetetive and the rewards are low!
Mengan Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:41:00 - [12] Originally by: malcotch Thanks for your help It seems that pirates will only attack if everything is in their favour and they will easily win. That goes for everthing in Eve. Few people want to risk their assets if they know they will loose them. You just have to find a way to make them think they have the advantage while they don't. ------------------------
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.01.15 18:49:00 - [13] Yes, in low sec you will lose ships, and the cost of that is rarely worth it. Stay in high-sec until you get higher level agents and some experience with the game. You can have a controlled PvP experience without losing standing if you join a player corporation that is involved in wars. This is probably the best way to learn PvP. As far as exercising your kill rights... you are solo. Ships cannot do everything: if you bring a ship that has firepower and defense, it won't have tackling and your enemies will warp away. If you bring speed and tackling, you won't have enough firepower to blow them up, even if they are stuck there with you. And often, they will call friends to help. My advice is, PVP is a common thing in this game. Don't get ****ed off at losing ships, it happens all the time. Ships are throw-away. Join a corp that does wars, learn the ropes, then go from there.
Disima Santet Minmatar Aziam	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:28:00 - [14] Edited by: Disima Santet on 15/01/2008 19:28:38 a Pilgrim vs a Catalyst, this is funny not as funny though as people sniping at noobships with their tech II sniper battleships :P There are very few players in EVE who will engage when the risk is great. The penalty for dying in EVE is significant, especially if you choose to pvp in something other than frigates and cruisers. Piracy has become less profitable since tech II items devalued in price, so pirates who fund themselves completely or in part by loot and ransoms are more desperate now than ever to try and score more kills while taking less losses.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.01.15 19:43:00 - [15] you should of ask him why :) pirates can be nice people. they can also be asswipes. but try anyways :) just don't be a carebear about it, jsut send him a message saying GF, good fight. and see what he says. then ask why. Also an intersecptor will get you away from a pilgrim . as long you you press warp when you see him uncloak and stay on the move so your not within range plus have a MWD. I can't see getting cuaght in one unless the other guys are very tricky or you get unlucky. now if that recon ship was a huggin... then you wouldn't get away no matter what ship you bring. huggins are really badass. mastered by Soulita bigger rez
Sandeep Raptus Regaliter Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.16 01:52:00 - [16] This might be irrelevant if you are too busy doing something else, but.. It takes at least 5 seconds after a Recon decloaking to target you, about 2-3 seconds to actually have you target locked, then boom you are it. Last time I checked, my destroyer can warp in under 6 seconds. -----
Falka Lakadaka Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.16 02:10:00 - [17] Originally by: Sandeep This might be irrelevant if you are too busy doing something else, but.. It takes at least 5 seconds after a Recon decloaking to target you, about 2-3 seconds to actually have you target locked, then boom you are it. Last time I checked, my destroyer can warp in under 6 seconds. Far less if it's aligned and has any speed up at all. Cheers Falka ________________________________________ Check out the Guides Sticky for answers to many questions
malcotch Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Sandeep This might be irrelevant if you are too busy doing something else, but.. It takes at least 5 seconds after a Recon decloaking to target you, about 2-3 seconds to actually have you target locked, then boom you are it. Last time I checked, my destroyer can warp in under 6 seconds. You are right, I was being careful, I was stationary and finding an optimum position for setting a bookmark. Which gave an aligned position for mining. I must have taken my eyes off the overview for a couple of seconds!! I was alerted when I heard the warning of the ship targeting me. I will be even more careful and use a small frigate to set the bookmarks in the future!
Saerdna16ID Gallente 16th Interspacial Dynasty	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:21:00 - [19] Edited by: Saerdna16ID on 16/01/2008 08:22:09 Depends what you want to do. I personally I move from my catalyst to Vexor. Its a cheap ship to buy 4mil. Can do level 2 missions easy which have good rewards. Plus with my Vexor I can fit 4 miners 2 so I can mine well and the same time use the drones to defend me from pirates. Also on mission with a good set-up can tank pretty much forever (I did a level 2 mission that I had to kill 60 rats where 15 of the were cruisers). The whole reward of that mission was 2+ mil. So with Vexor you get a cheap ship (that you can affort to replace) with dual perpose (mining and missions). Now for low sec I do not think you are ready and I avoid it myself. BTW I do have 2 set-ups on my Vexor 1 PVE and 1 for PVP. The whole fitting of vexor cost like 5 mil for PVE and its pretty sufficient. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Selene Dukat	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:58:00 - [20] Originally by: Letouk Mernel My advice is, PVP is a common thing in this game. Don't get ****ed off at losing ships, it happens all the time. Ships are throw-away. Join a corp that does wars, learn the ropes, then go from there. I think this is much better advice that a lot of the "stay out of low-sec" posts here. Sometimes the "seasoned veterans" kind of lose perspective on the game. Here's the perspective of a young player. In you are interested in combat as a career, get into low-sec as soon as you can. But do it smart. Being "smart" does not mean staying in high sec for six months or a year while you train skills. It means the following things: -- Join a good corp. This can't be stressed enough. It makes my experiences in and around low and null security space much better. If helps with the ISK flow to support ship loss. It provides group possibilities to make your experiences in PvP more balanced (i.e. not dominated by your losses because you were solo and everyone you come up against is not.) -- Don't stress out about ships or ISK. Yeah, try to build up an ISK padding, only fly what you can afford to lose, yadda yadda. But being in a good corp helps with ISK generation. It's completely different from trying to do everything solo. Furthermore, I firmly believe that ISK shouldn't never "end" your options to do what you want. There are legal ways to provide a quick injection of ISK to your character (i.e., GTC) so use it if you need it / want it. Flying a battleship into low sec and hanging out as a new pilot is probably stupid. But flying frigates, cruisers, even battlecruisers (in a group) around is not stupid, and very fun. You'll lose some, but that's the name of the game. Don't buy into this whole "OMG LOW SEC AAAA" mentality that tells you that you must sit on your butt in high sec until you've been playing for a year. Just do low sec SMART - this is not a solo game. Get friends, fly smart, cheap ships, learn from mistakes, and GO FOR IT! :D
Gartel Reiman Project F3	Posted - 2008.01.16 08:59:00 - [21] Originally by: malcotch I will be even more careful and use a small frigate to set the bookmarks in the future! Or even better, a shuttle. Shuttles are fantastic for tasks that don't require you to activate any modules or carry any cargo. They have the highest base speed of any ship in the game, will align to warp in about 1 second, can warp massive distances without running out of capacitor and to top it all off are 9,000 ISK each, so even if you do lose one it's not a major problem. If you're making bookmarks in low-sec in preparation for coming back in a different ship later, then a shuttle should be your first choice for this work.
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.16 09:08:00 - [22] Edited by: Shanur on 16/01/2008 09:09:30 Originally by: malcotch I was alerted when I heard the warning of the ship targeting me. Actually the warning sound doesn't play until the ship is flashing yellow brackets. When that happens he already has a full lock on you. That's what killed you. Once a hostile ship has you locked, one of you is going to die. Low sec is indeed not often profitable. The higher rewards tend to be nullified by the fact that anyone attracted to piracy style combat roams low sec making the risk of pirate attack high. The costs incurred in destruction or even in the loss of productivity incurred by evading the pirate until he gives up are such that the added revenue over just mining low end minerals in high sec is completely canceled. You are better off farming missions in high sec and mining the asteroids in there, or probing down exploration pockets in 0.5 sec space. Another thing about pirates only picking completely unfair fights they can not possibly lose, burn this firmly in your mind and if necessary re evaluate your decission to stay in EVE based on it. Combat wise EVE plays like a RTS game. Almost all skill is put in preparation and deployment. Just as you won't just put 2 assault frigates against each other in Homeworld, you will not find many evenly matched 1 vs 1 fights in EVE. You win Homeworld by evading the brunt of the enemy attack fleet and hitting weak spots with an overwhelming advantage. Same holds for PvP in EVE. You pick fights you know you can win and evade those you can not win. Making sure that you get into favorable encounters and preventing your target from evading you is 99% of the conflict. Once locks are established and guns start firing, the decission to engage has been made, flight has been prevented and the fight is in most cases decided. The actual pew pew is in that regard nothing more than the end game of a game of chess. Your opponent may still surprise you, but in most cases the outcome is known by then. And you don't hear chess players whine that pitting 2 rooks against a lone king is lame and unfair. They know they should have played better in the mid game which takes place well before you even see your opponent on overview.
Sandeep Raptus Regaliter Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.16 09:19:00 - [23] Originally by: malcotch I was alerted when I heard the warning of the ship targeting me. No. You heard YOUR ship targeting him! On this note, you should turn off auto-target back. It kills the user more than it saves time. If the attacker had any reservation, it was all gone because you showed intent to attack him by targeting him. -----
Xennith Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.01.16 09:24:00 - [24] flashing yellow brackets = they are locking you, solid yellow box = you are locked, solid red box = you are being shot at. We come for our people
Andre Ricard Gallente Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.16 09:48:00 - [25] Edited by: Andre Ricard on 16/01/2008 09:48:38 Originally by: malcotch I do not understand why such a powerful ship would target a destroyer, my wreck was still intact and I managed to get some cargo back. So I was not targeted for loot. Before you address anything else, you must correct this misconception. You were targeted for loot. A pirate will blow up anything and everything they can find because you never, ever know when someone is carrying around something valuable. There are a great number of people with more money than common sense, and they'll often roll temporary alts to avoid looking obtrusive. Whenever you leave high-sec, you are a target. You must assume that everyone, everyone, around you is out to kill you and take everything you hold dear. Even your corp or alliance-mates should only be given so much trust. If you see someone you don't know enter the system, hide until you can somehow determine their intentions. Knowing your surroundings is important, knowing your capabilities is important, but above all else you must realize this: in EVE you are a shark who can be cannibalized at any time by any other shark around you. And every single person you meet is starving. Keep this in mind, and you'll do well. ----- Character back under original management.
Sandeep Raptus Regaliter Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.16 09:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Xennith flashing yellow brackets = they are locking you, solid yellow box = you are locked, solid red box = you are being shot at. No indication = They might or might not be trying to lock you. Flashing yellow bracket = They have locked you. Flashing red bracket = They are attacking you right now! Your own Overview settings, especially the background coloring, may obstruct these targeting indicators. -----
malcotch Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.16 15:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Sandeep Originally by: malcotch I was alerted when I heard the warning of the ship targeting me. No. You heard YOUR ship targeting him! On this note, you should turn off auto-target back. It kills the user more than it saves time. If the attacker had any reservation, it was all gone because you showed intent to attack him by targeting him. You may be right, I had an auto targeting unit switched on, which should automatically target hostile ships only. I had this for dealing with NPCs. But was not being as observant as I should have been. But this is a steep learning curve and still enjoyable, the ship was insured and I got half the fittings back! I have not given up on low sec space and I'm thinking of taking the following path to gain experience in low sec space. Use cheap Probe or Imicus frigates, they will be set up to mine and run at the first sign of trouble. i.e. 2x Miner I's, Stabalizers and Signal Boosters, and 3x Hobgoblins to deal with NPCs. The cargo hold is big enough to make it worthwhile to mine. The ships are cheap enough so I do not mind loosing them + they will be insured. Would this setup be worthwhile for low sec space?
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.01.16 16:05:00 - [28] Originally by: malcotch I have not given up on low sec space and I'm thinking of taking the following path to gain experience in low sec space. Use cheap Probe or Imicus frigates, they will be set up to mine and run at the first sign of trouble. i.e. 2x Miner I's, Stabalizers and Signal Boosters, and 3x Hobgoblins to deal with NPCs. The cargo hold is big enough to make it worthwhile to mine. The ships are cheap enough so I do not mind loosing them + they will be insured. Would this setup be worthwhile for low sec space? While such a setup is certainly effective, the mere fact that you are using a frigate instead of a barge, can't jetcan and have to run each time a pirate decides to pester you means you are losing a lot of valuable M3/hour just to mine safely. This loss in productivity generally is not made up by the higher value of minerals found only in low sec, especially in these crazy times where there are just as many buy orders for low grade ores as there are sell orders for Isogen, Nocxium and Zydrine. You'll be hard pressed to beat mining mission pockets and exploration sites in 0.5 and 0.6 sites in terms of productivity, at least until you go all the way and start operating in nullsec itself. This is a known issue with lowsec. The cost that dealing with the significantly higher risk brings with it just doesn't weigh up against the slightly better rewards. And many of the precautions that you must take to defend yourself in low sec also work well in 0.0, with the added bonus that if you manage to get a working arrangement with the local corps, you might be able to mine areas fully secured by them making those areas even safer than high sec. This is the main reason that PvP capable corps often bypass low sec entirely and push straight on to nullsec.

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