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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.15 19:51:00 -
[1]
I've seen a few old discussion threads on this, experimented with it myself, and recieved word of mouth from patches past, but as far as I can tell these sources are either incorrect, unclear, or just plain outdated. Does anyone have solid info on how this mechanic works as of Trinity?
Thanks.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Nexus Kinnon
Synthetic Frontiers
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.01.15 20:27:00 -
[2]
Check the turret guide in the sticky? I think it's in there.
I thought it was just randomised.
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.15 20:42:00 -
[3]
You would think so, but there's no mention of it.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.16 13:41:00 -
[4]
Bump for great wisdom. Does nobody know or does nobody want to share?
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Gartel Reiman
Project F3
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Posted - 2008.01.16 13:44:00 -
[5]
I've seen some long experimental calculations a while back that seemed to suggest that better tracking = better quality of hits. This was never absolutely confirmed or denied but the general feeling was that it worked out like this in practice.
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Laura Steel
The Chaotic Order
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.01.16 13:46:00 -
[6]
I heard that a wrecking his was a 3% or so chance a while back. Even if you were missing all the time due to tracking.(these would hit). I believe the game decides wether you will hit or not, or if its a wrecking hit. Then it just picks a quality based on their % to happen.
Just what I think.
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.16 13:50:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 16/01/2008 13:51:46
Gartel: that's what I've heard too, that having 'excess' tracking, range, and signature increases your chances of better hits. So you want to be hitting a target going a lot more slowly than you can track, is below optimal, and is bigger than your sensor resolution. But I can't find anything hard out there.
Laura: I've heard that too, but even it's accurate, what about the other qualities of hits? Is there some distribution of hit types aside from just 3% for Wrecking?
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Sephra Star
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Posted - 2008.01.16 15:19:00 -
[8]
Target Painter comes to mind.
Increase that sig.
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Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.01.16 15:24:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Sephra Star
Target Painter comes to mind.
Increase that sig.
As far as i'm aware, that only has to do with the amount of hits, not the quality of hits. The way i always seen it was that it's damage modifier * ammo damage, and then two numbers, one to multiply it with a number between 0 and 1 to determine hit quality and one from the tracking formula to determine whether it hits at all.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.16 16:17:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 16/01/2008 16:19:10
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
I've seen a few old discussion threads on this, experimented with it myself, and recieved word of mouth from patches past, but as far as I can tell these sources are either incorrect, unclear, or just plain outdated. Does anyone have solid info on how this mechanic works as of Trinity?
Thanks.
A summary for you:
Whenever a shot is fired, a uniformly distributed random number x is generated, between 0 and 1. Also, at the same time, the chance to hit is calculated (labelled z below), using the formula listed at http://wiki.eve-dev.net/Tracking.
If x < 0.01 you get a wrecking hit that does 3* normal damage. Otherwise, if x <= z, you get a damage mod (for that shot) of (x + 0.49). If x > z, you get a miss. In other words, the best possible non-wrecking hit will be for 149% of normal damage (only possible when firing with a 100% chance to hit) and the worst possible non-wrecking hit will do 50% of normal damage.
This means that min(1%,z) of all shots you fire will always be wrecking hits. Once you get down to a 1% chance to hit or lower, the only hits you see will be wrecking hits.
From all of this, you get the following formula for expected damage:
Expected damage per shot
= normal damage * [min(z,1%)*3 + max(0,z - 1%)*(0.99+z)/2]
where normal damage = damage listed on ammo * damage mod on gun
This is the thread where these results were last hammered out:
http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=4845&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
There are links there to the results from extensive tests that I carried out. I don't think it's worth repeating the exercise as there have been no documented changes to this mechanism since then and no-one has yet reported any data which contradict these findings.
My research services
Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.16 16:29:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 16/01/2008 16:34:57
Thank you very much Kazuo, you've been very helpful.
EDIT: The Scrapheap challenge thread is there, but the Wiki link you have is not currently responding.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.16 17:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Very useful info
Just wanted to thank you for one of the more useful posts I see on the forums!
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Speed Tanker
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Posted - 2008.01.16 19:03:00 -
[13]
http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g61_5.asp
- Speed Tanker |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.16 20:50:00 -
[14]
As I mentioned above, the official guide talks about how your probability of hitting something is calculated but make no reference at all to the quality of those hits (i.e. wrecking, excellent, glancing, etc).
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.17 00:06:00 -
[15]
Nobody correcting me or disagreeing? I feel as though I've been here too long 
My research services
Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
VSP Corp.
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Posted - 2008.01.17 00:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Nobody correcting me or disagreeing? I feel as though I've been here too long
You're so wrong, I can't even begin to explain why!11one!!one
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VB Sarge
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.01.17 03:11:00 -
[17]
Kaz your info is right on the money.
Basically, better tracking does not mean more wrecking hits. you will get wrecking hits 1% of the time, and that's it.
www.the-bastards.com
Ask me about recruiting options |
Saietor Blackgreen
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Posted - 2008.01.17 11:44:00 -
[18]
Kazuo, we use your formulas in all our spreadsheets for such a long time that there is no point to disagree :)
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Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari
eNinjas Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.01.17 15:14:00 -
[19]
I thought they fixed it so that having a really low chance to hit doesn't guarantee you only wrecking hits any more?
nullnull |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.18 20:17:00 -
[20]
Hey Kazuo, the wiki you have linked above isn't working for me. How does your chance to hit with a turret get calculated? I know the basics of range, tracking, and signature radius, but I was wondering if there were any specific formulas available. For example, I know that, all other things being perfect, once you exceed your optimal range your chance to hit goes down to 50% at falloff and 0% at 2x falloff, but what about everywhere in between? I know that there are similar 0% cutoffs for tracking and sig, I just don't know what they are.
Thanks again.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.21 12:13:00 -
[21]
Bumping again for Great Wisdom. Is anyone who knows the details of how the chance to hit with a turret willing to share here?
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Pandares
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.01.21 13:09:00 -
[22]
the wiki worked just fine for me; see if you can see this
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Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.21 13:58:00 -
[23]
Hmm, still nothing for me. I'll have to try it from a different computer.
Thanks.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.21 14:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Falkrich Swifthand
I thought they fixed it so that having a really low chance to hit doesn't guarantee you only wrecking hits any more?
Sort of. What was happening before was that 1 in every 100 shots would be a wrecking hit no matter how low your chance to hit was, so (for example) a Tempest with 1400mm artillery would occasionally hit a fast-orbiting interceptor and destroy it in one shot.
Now the frequency of wrecking hits is capped by hit chance, which is actually much less than 1% in the sort of situation outline above. Depending partly on the number of digits in the random number x mentioned in my earlier post, rounding makes it impossible to score any hits at all once hit chance falls below a certain threshold (it can never actually be zero due to the construction of the formula).
My research services
Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
Night's Dawn
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Posted - 2008.01.21 14:04:00 -
[25]
You can simply the tracking related part to this:
(angular_velocity*sig_res)/(tracking*sig_rad)
instead of transverse, range, etc.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.21 14:23:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
You can simply the tracking related part to this:
(angular_velocity*sig_res)/(tracking*sig_rad)
instead of transverse, range, etc.
Thanks Cpt. Is there a seperate signature radius component to the calculation in addition to what's listed here or is this the only place it's considered?
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2008.01.21 17:13:00 -
[27]
Ok, here it is:
2^-[(transversal/{tracking*range}*sig_res/sig_rad)^2+(MAX{0,range-optimal}/falloff)^2]
The yellow part relates to signature & tracking, and the green part relates to falloff. You'll always miss some shots if your target is moving or out of optimal.
My research services
Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
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Posted - 2008.01.21 17:39:00 -
[28]
Thanks again Kazuo, you've been a great help.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
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