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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:05:00 -
[91]
 Quote:
Quote:
Unity is a myth. Brotherhood a myth. Human beings exist for only one reason, to add their DNA to the gene pool so the species can survive. In ten thousand years we won't even have agreed on the definition of unity. We are meant to compete. To strive against each other. Our technology and achievements walk hand in hand with our wars.
Only human arrogance makes us think we can change nature.
This is a simple and ignorant view of how things are.
First of all Unity is one of the Humans beings strong points. Without banding together to overcome odds we are actually a puny weak creature.
Of course humans are animals and have all of those characteristics that are needed to propagate a species, but part of human survival is our desire to be a part of a group.
Some of these characteristics are useless now and in some forms detrimental to the progression of the human species, so if you are caught up in the "this is the way it is" argument, you might want to see if your type of behavior might be on the way out.
As far as being machines that are based on X, Y and Z due to our DNA and instinct and that all we are doing is trying to fullfill basic needs that are a product of our species... Well, I cant totally disagree with this, because you could easily connect anything to our desire to live. BUT, I will say that our natural curiosity has taken our lives far beyond just surviving and made us self aware.
Most people of the world are far beyond just trying to survive and are out adventuring for the pleasure of it, wether or not this pleasure is to feed some inner desire or if it is an experiment.
Humans are aware of their instincts...Is this an instinct? People put themselves in dangerous situations for the fun of it...Is this instinct?
I dont think people are simple machines even though we are driven by natural urges and instincts we can also reason and think and learn.
Sorry if I come off negative in this argument, but I see such weakness in the arguments people use to justify negative behavior that it irks me.
You are confusing the natural pack instinct with Unity. Unity is when you join together with a group of people for the common good. Others being equal to your own. Humans ban together out of pack instinct and as soon as an individual is not being served by that pack he will find another regardless of how it effects the original pack.
Also you are wrong. Most people of the world still exist on a survival basis. In fact you can tell just how much Unity we have by the fact that this thread is even here. Millions of people will starve to death this year but everyone reading this would rather pay for a computer game than to help a few of those people who right now are in need. Ask yourself why this is. Are you evil? No, you are probably not evil. You are doing the things you feel at some level you need to do to thrive in the world you live in.
Am I saying there is no good in humanity? Of course not. But to try and deny what we are is foolish and childishly naive. We are supposed to compete for food, mates, shelter so that the strong and smart pass their DNA along and the weak do not. It is a measure of what good is in humanity that we try to care for the weak to some degree.
The very competition that some decry is what has allowed us to reach the heights we have.
Still belive in Unity? Give away most of what you own and live on the annual average worldwide wage and then tell me about unity.
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Lianhaun
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:11:00 -
[92]
Muad
I believe there is unity, you are kind and nice to people you feel you are united with.
It's just that you don't feel as connected to someone in Africa as you feel you are connected with your relatives.
Thats why I think we take care of our elder ( or stuff them in old folks homes) rather then letting them rot away since they are useless for the genepool.
read my 2cents about community
On another note, there is a difference between theory and practise, the theory of utilism sounds nice ; greatest good for the greatest number of people.
But in practise it means you are never done doing good for others and the humanity is at stake when its better to have 49% of a population tortured and 51 % live happily ever after.
This is not a hijack
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Haxar
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:22:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Haxar on 24/03/2004 16:33:01
Humans are no animals, it's not fair to say humans are animals in some form or kind towards any animal.
Show me one animal that is plain evil which kills just for the lust of death.
Show me one animal that kills their own kind just because it has different views of things.
Show me one animal that abuses their own kind for his/her own pleasure/self interest.
I also doubt any animal commited genocide so far.
Awareness of the being can be a bliss, but also a curse. 
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Lianhaun
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:30:00 -
[94]
Show me one animal that is plain evil which kills just for the lust of death.
house cats
Show me one animal that kills their own kind just because it has different views of things.
male lion kills the other male lion because they both view that the female belongs to them
Show me one animal that abuses their own kind for his/her own pleasure/self interest.
there are some malicious monkeys out there
I think I know what you mean to say with these examples, but I doubt your claim that animals are better or more innocent then humans because o self-awareness. Some animals are self aware and still do 'mean' things.
Or I totally misunderstand what you are trying to say.
This is not a hijack
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Miz Cenuij
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:39:00 -
[95]
OMG, you mean you dont kill in RL as well?
Am I the only one?
lol.
"Men are going to die..
and im going to kill them". |
Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:41:00 -
[96]
Quote:
there are some malicious monkeys out there
O_M_G... 
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Haxar
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:48:00 -
[97]
Quote:
Show me one animal that is plain evil which kills just for the lust of death.
house cats
Hehe, without humans, no house cats.
Quote:
Show me one animal that kills their own kind just because it has different views of things.
male lion kills the other male lion because they both view that the female belongs to them
Well i think those deaths are accidents, mostly the winner wins and the loser gets away with a few scars.
Quote:
Show me one animal that abuses their own kind for his/her own pleasure/self interest.
there are some malicious monkeys out there
That might be. I need more Discovery Channel. 
Quote:
I think I know what you mean to say with these examples, but I doubt your claim that animals are better or more innocent then humans because o self-awareness. Some animals are self aware and still do 'mean' things.
Or I totally misunderstand what you are trying to say.
Not really, but I think that there are humans and that there are animals. Humans are no animals anymore. Animals just do not leave a trail of havoc and destruction if they leave a place they just live with the enviroment.
Actually I wanted to add "Animals do not commit genocide", but do'h, there exist some nasty ants I believe. 
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:51:00 -
[98]
Quote:
Muad
I believe there is unity, you are kind and nice to people you feel you are united with.
It's just that you don't feel as connected to someone in Africa as you feel you are connected with your relatives.
Thats why I think we take care of our elder ( or stuff them in old folks homes) rather then letting them rot away since they are useless for the genepool.
read my 2cents about community
On another note, there is a difference between theory and practise, the theory of utilism sounds nice ; greatest good for the greatest number of people.
But in practise it means you are never done doing good for others and the humanity is at stake when its better to have 49% of a population tortured and 51 % live happily ever after.
See I can agree with you just about 100%. It's relatively easy to inspire a sense of community in a small group and even at some point to carry it out to a national level because people can see how it advances their self interest and that of their offspring. But the kind of Unity where we all hold hands and everyone pitched in to the communal soup pot is just not going to happen.
Not to mention that we as a species would stagnate if it did. Competition brings out the best and worst in us. We need it, It's what drives us.
I like to think I'm a good person. I work for a lower salary to do research. I volunteer time and give a better than average chunk of my earnings to charities. Make no mistake though, if I thought someone was going to try to hurt me or those I love I would beat them to death with my barehands. In the end the survival of myself and my pack comes before all else and the person who thinks they are different is lying to themselves.
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.03.24 16:59:00 -
[99]
Quote:
Quote:
Show me one animal that is plain evil which kills just for the lust of death.
house cats
Hehe, without humans, no house cats.
Quote:
Show me one animal that kills their own kind just because it has different views of things.
male lion kills the other male lion because they both view that the female belongs to them
Well i think those deaths are accidents, mostly the winner wins and the loser gets away with a few scars.
Quote:
Show me one animal that abuses their own kind for his/her own pleasure/self interest.
there are some malicious monkeys out there
That might be. I need more Discovery Channel.
Quote:
I think I know what you mean to say with these examples, but I doubt your claim that animals are better or more innocent then humans because o self-awareness. Some animals are self aware and still do 'mean' things.
Or I totally misunderstand what you are trying to say.
Not really, but I think that there are humans and that there are animals. Humans are no animals anymore. Animals just do not leave a trail of havoc and destruction if they leave a place they just live with the enviroment.
Actually I wanted to add "Animals do not commit genocide", but do'h, there exist some nasty ants I believe.
Ok yes animals live with nature but what choice do they have? I mean it's not like they decided to be eco-friendly. We are the only ones to screw things up because we are the only ones with the capacity to screw things up.
You can bet your ass if monkeys could build the bomb they would.
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Heigh Suse
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Posted - 2004.03.24 17:11:00 -
[100]
Muad said:
Quote:
I like to think I'm a good person. I work for a lower salary to do research. I volunteer time and give a better than average chunk of my earnings to charities. Make no mistake though, if I thought someone was going to try to hurt me or those I love I would beat them to death with my barehands. In the end the survival of myself and my pack comes before all else and the person who thinks they are different is lying to themselves.
It's hard to have a discussion with people when you dont know exactly where they are coming from..
I cant argue anyones perception of things and really there is no point. You guys go ahead and have your opinions and I'll have mine.
I'll just say that I'm glad to live in a society so that we dont have to live by urges alone.
Don't be hatin' |
Soul Reaver
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Posted - 2004.03.24 17:35:00 -
[101]
Lian
Yes Philoshophie, Psychology, Religion, and a bit of Psychiatry too ha ha. I am a child of Timothy leary to be honest :) Actually did some Datura once and thought I was a chair but that was another story ROFL!! Quite enlightening though ha ha.. I like the model of "The Celestine Prophecy" and also Kabbalahs latest efforts to. My personal truth centres around Deepak Chopras "Seven Spiritual Laws of Success" and in this I am most happy and balanced to be honest.
We do indeed live in the age of aquarious in more ways than one, and as such Mans spiritual self is experiencing rather a renaicence of major proportions! Where this will lead us? Well thats another question I guess.
You see Lian we were always connected on a deeper level he he Just didnt know it. Philosophie student! My my I could have some intersting chats with you... Tell you about my hippy days rofl...
Be you a Pirate or a Simple Alt creeper! Sooner or later you'll dance with Soul Reaver and His Amazing Underpants
Currently chasing Lianhaun |
Heigh Suse
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Posted - 2004.03.24 17:39:00 -
[102]
I've had plenty of mine own "mind awakening" experiences myself.
Im not a hippy though :P
Don't be hatin' |
Lianhaun
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Posted - 2004.03.24 17:40:00 -
[103]
Well, how about you join Evol and we can discuss it on corpchat?
Yeah we should convo one another to see if the other is bored as well
Or perhaps I'll let myself be dragged to the Vienna meeting so I can hear those hippy stories.
This is not a hijack
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.03.24 17:58:00 -
[104]
Quote:
Lian
Yes Philoshophie, Psychology, Religion, and a bit of Psychiatry too ha ha. I am a child of Timothy leary to be honest :) Actually did some Datura once and thought I was a chair but that was another story ROFL!! Quite enlightening though ha ha.. I like the model of "The Celestine Prophecy" and also Kabbalahs latest efforts to. My personal truth centres around Deepak Chopras "Seven Spiritual Laws of Success" and in this I am most happy and balanced to be honest.
We do indeed live in the age of aquarious in more ways than one, and as such Mans spiritual self is experiencing rather a renaicence of major proportions! Where this will lead us? Well thats another question I guess.
You see Lian we were always connected on a deeper level he he Just didnt know it. Philosophie student! My my I could have some intersting chats with you... Tell you about my hippy days rofl...
No offense but comparing Deepak Chopras and the Celestine Prophecy to real philospophy is like comparing spam to Kobe beef. I met Dr. Chopras at a function once for a very brief time and he seemed like a very happy fellow but I never really did like his school of " sugar pilll" medicine. I author of the Celestine Prophecy is from my city and as much as I wanted to like that book it was really drivel to make old housewives feel good about themselves.
Real philosphy asks you questions that you then have to answer. These guys give you answers you didn't ask for.
Timothy Leary is the reason I did acid for the first time but in reality he was just a little boy who didn't want to grow up.
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Sybylle
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Posted - 2004.03.24 18:01:00 -
[105]
Man, that's the first thread that goes so far without a lock or a Mod intervention :)
Who said that only kids played video games might take a look at this thread
'grats to all participants...That's a really kick-..s thread 
Keep it on 
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <)=Oveur (proof)
"Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period" |
Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.03.24 18:41:00 -
[106]
For those interested in phiolosophy I suggest reading the works of Gottfried Von Leibniz. He was both a philosopher and a mathmatician who did groundbreaking work on differtial and intergal Calculus. Leibniz believed that what was happening right then was the best possible thing that could be happening no matter how horrible it was.
The character Dr. Pangloss in Voltare's Candide is in fact a refutation by Voltare of Leibniz's beliefs.
See also Von Leibniz's Pre-harmonic Oscillator.
Warning: this is old school philosophy from back when most were also into math and science. There will be no hugging or tree worship. No getting in touch with your inner child.
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Lianhaun
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:00:00 -
[107]
Lebiniz is one of the few metaphysics who is still fun to read with his monades.
For people who are into religion and love to read about Christian philosophy, I can recommend some authors and books that will clearly show how rational christianity can be.
This is not a hijack
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Lord Zap
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:00:00 -
[108]
Quote:
Human race is unpredictable and dangerous by nature.Also humans always feared the unknown and this is basically applied to everyone to some extent.Fears the unknown because we might think it will harm us,do us bad,whatever,since this is our nature we also think others will also be.From child we are taught to distrust everyone and if not,you quickly learn by yourself the hard way.From childood we are also given an education and taught a religion (on the best case,many people die from hunger every day),and altho I dont share many religions points of view nor bible(some parts of it just make me  ) ,but I respect them all.Humanity has always been a stuck on a pod (TM) with their fears and their ghosts of the past.Actually world is a confusing place full of crap,and you must make your way up preferably by not so mean ways and find an stability.Just hope the golden ages of humanity come back for a better future.
As for afterlife topic,I totally believe on life after death.Otherwise wtf.
Ok im starting to sound like a cult lol,share your opinions/thoughts and keep it clean.
Yes the one thing that marks man from beast is self awareness. One thing that characterises humans is our curiosity and fear of the unknown and our desire to put our existance into context. This is probably how organised religion came to be in the first place. Religion provided answers to the questions people wanted answering, how the earth came to be, how life started, what comes after life. Religion also provided an element of social control (and still does particularly in Islamic Nations) that cannot be underestimated i.e. No matter how ****ty your life is be a good Christian/Muslim/Jew/Sikh/Hindu and you will be rewarded in the after life. Ofcourse this is to my mind lunacy.
Much of Western Society is now secular because the questions which were once answered with such conviction by Religious dogma are now answered by Science (or atleast Science provides more convincing answers than religion). Ofcourse there does exist that most curious breed, those scientists who happen to be devout Christians . I cant even remember what my original point was, that spliff has gone right to my head...
My intention is not to insult any of our more religious members ie Teelmaster, your faith is commendable and must give you a sense of purpose/security, but to my mind there is far too much suffering in the world for there to exist a God in the Biblical sense. People will say all things happen for a purpose, that everything ahppens as part of Gods will, but imo this is just deterministic bull. It detracts from the choices that exist for us all and the fact that there are consequences to all our actions. Like the choice I have made to plough endless hours into this silly game  rather than go out blockading my road demanding people pay me ú100 to pass.
A Very COnfused....
Lord Zap
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:01:00 -
[109]
What's so rational on believing in something that doesn't exist?
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:25:00 -
[110]
Certainly a deep thread, and its very reaffirming for me to realise that the eve-players are as smart and perceptive as I often hope they are. The thing that has kept me enthused by this environment for months has been the adult thinking and imagination behind the characters and setting, and regardless of silly arguments and forgettable flame-wars and such, itÆs always been apparent that this is a living, breathing science-fiction story with content provided by some very sharp customers and extremely witty and creative people.
IÆve said before that IÆm by no-way the brightest mind in eve, and itÆs sometimes quite refreshing to sit back and realise that it is actually something of a privilege to share a community like this with an extended peer group of dedicated and creative souls choosing to sacrifice a little time to develop a shared consensus.
Still that said I guess some kind of a statement of belief is needed in the spirit of the thread;
Me=agnostic. Why are we here? I donÆt know, accident of biology, random cosmic circumstance, who knows? But I do certainly think itÆs worth making the most of our lives and concentrating of what we believe to be right and good. But thatÆs incredibly subjective in itself of course.
For my money I think MaudÆs right, and there is a core of brutal pragmatism in the human heart, and sometimes perhaps people that arenÆt parents (yet) might not realise the clear and murderous passion that comes from the thought that people out there might wish our children harm. Civilisation starts in the bond between family and in the modern world and extended circles of friendship have replaced the traditional extended family. I think itÆs the simplest thing in the world to want to defend something we personally value, and that the purest mark of personal esteem is a desire/ability to put your life on the line to defend what you believe to be right.
Beyond that à well, do what you enjoy and donÆt jump on what other people enjoy and as long as those things arenÆt contradictory then youÆre a potential friend. I think thatÆs all there is to say really. My life plan is pretty much; raise my daughter well, be a loyal friend, keep enthused about things and leave more than I take. The last is tricky given the western societal tendency to gobble up assets like candy, so itÆs an endeavour that is going to take a damn long time to realise. But fortunately in realm of human exchange itÆs possible to make a positive by making a friend smile or keeping a touching myth alive or providing some kind of positive example to someone. Its complex though, and most of the time itÆs not worth drawing diagrams û still, the games never over till you fold. ItÆs always worth trying.
JF Public Forum |
Lianhaun
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:29:00 -
[111]
Quote:
What's so rational on believing in something that doesn't exist?
Well I never met time or touched it, yet I assume it exists and physics is based on it alot.
Following the reasoning that time exists, physics is rational.
Be very careful on saying that something exists, your not all knowing and after 2000 years were not even 100% sure this reality is even real.
Read Hilary Putman, Brains in a Vat
This is not a hijack
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:30:00 -
[112]
Quote:
Lebiniz is one of the few metaphysics who is still fun to read with his monades.
For people who are into religion and love to read about Christian philosophy, I can recommend some authors and books that will clearly show how rational christianity can be.
C.S. Lewis? Though I am about as religious as a brothel. I think the Screwtape Letters is a fine example of a man who has fully thought out his religious beliefs.
I'm also fond of the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas.
Letters from Earth by Mark Twain is also a must read but from a different vein. Best known for his comedic works Leters from Earth is both funny and bitter. It's an interesting look into humanity.
Returning to a religious point some of the best philosophy and life advice I've ever heard can be found in the biblical chapter " The songs of Soloman".
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Lianhaun
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:36:00 -
[113]
Yes Lewis is a nice read as well.
I like the mystics such as Meister Eckhart, I'm too sick and tired of Aquino. That is the sad thing about studying philosophy, certain names you hear too often
This is not a hijack
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Haxar
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:46:00 -
[114]
Quote:
[...]
You can bet your ass if monkeys could build the bomb they would.
Planet of the Apes?
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.03.24 20:13:00 -
[115]
Quote:
(Interestingly there is no biological reason why women have such pain when giving birth)
try pushing an orange through your nose, it's the stretching that hurts a bit
I put a raisin in my nose once but accidently sucked it in, momma says I have teh brain damages now. :(
------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Sassinak
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Posted - 2004.03.24 20:35:00 -
[116]
Quote:
Quote:
(Interestingly there is no biological reason why women have such pain when giving birth)
try pushing an orange through your nose, it's the stretching that hurts a bit
I put a raisin in my nose once but accidently sucked it in, momma says I have teh brain damages now. :(
I think she's right m8, it seems apparent anyway...
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Nostradamu5
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Posted - 2004.03.24 21:12:00 -
[117]
So yes here I am again Mr Of-Topic, yes yes yes world peace would be nice but what's really caught my eye is the sigs the Polaris pack is using, what kind of ship is that under the first E? Could we get a better look at it? Go ahead an quadruple the size of your sig I promise I won't tell anyone
Stop griping about server instability and go buy an EVE mug!
Additionally with the purchase of each mug you will receive two(2) invisible Elves.
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.03.24 21:40:00 -
[118]
Quote:
Yes Lewis is a nice read as well.
I like the mystics such as Meister Eckhart, I'm too sick and tired of Aquino. That is the sad thing about studying philosophy, certain names you hear too often
Have you studied a lot of the jewish mystics?
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Monica Scuro
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Posted - 2004.03.24 23:39:00 -
[119]
Id just like to say for all the doom and gloom that seems apparant, dont be too scared for yourselves. We live in what is probably the most peacefull time in our planets history and as so are probably the luckiest people in its history.
Yes there are a few thousand nutters running round trying to bring the world to its knees, no they will never succeed.
Remember the first and second world wars? A few more people involved in that.
Yes there is trouble in the middle east, there has been trouble there for the past 2000 years or longer. It will never be sorted out, but its not the death of the world.
Society is not crumbling around us and we are far from the end of the world. But its nice to know that everyone cares about it. Unfortunatley as everyone knows, force is the ultimate negotiation tool, if you wont use force, you will have to do as those who do tell you. Luckily we are in the part of the world that uses force to make life better for people, again probably the only time in earths history it has been used this way are the 20th and 21st century.
So in all its not all doom and gloom. Be thankfull you are playing a computer game and not fighting for all our safety as some have to.
P.S moo are officially carebares i think now...
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Laro
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Posted - 2004.03.24 23:46:00 -
[120]
I find myself aggreeing totally with Lord Zap ......... which is worrying tbh
Proud member of Curse Alliance |
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