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LETTER TO CCP: Observations of a Jump Freighter Pilot and Producer

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 9 post(s)
Rawne Karrde An Tir Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.01.21 23:10:00 - [1] Dear CCP Chronitis, and whom ever might care; Ok just some thoughts from my experience with the jump freighters. I have been going almost end to end on these from the invention down to the actual building then flying of them. I even have setup quite a few pos to produce moon materials to contribute to the building. When it comes to the invention and building of these I really have no problems. Sure the ships cost quite a bit more than CCP's stated target of 3.6 bil, but hey thats the market and I like that it goes up and down with supply and demand. CCP has never really been very good at anticipating what players will do and the effect on the market. As a pilot of the jump frieghter, the Rhea for the record, I am a little disappointed. I have trained up Jump calibration lvl 5 for maximum range and I'm working on Freighter lvl 5 as well to max out cargo. I have the Jump Freighter skill at lvl 4. Now the price is not something I'm unhappy about. This ship can jump from high sec space straight to the safety of a 0.0 or low sec POS. That kind of "safety" shouldn't be without a price. Too boot, the rorqual is anywhere from 1/4 to 1/5 the price of a Jump freighter but has half the cargo potential. What do I think should be done? Well I hate nerfs so lets leave the rorqual alone. As a producer, I've got 10's of billions tied up in construction jump freighters ( 4 Rhea and 2 Anshar for the record). I'd prefer to leave the construction costs alone as well. That leaves the ship. For the price tag that comes with these t2 behemoths, CCP should increase the cargo hold to 1/2 of the t1 freighters instead of the 1/3 its currently at. They should also remove the stupid speed bonus that you get. Whoopee I get to go 120 m/s in the jump freighter, instead of 90 m/s. This bonus is COMPLETELY useless as was pointed out by many even before the jf's hit tq. Replace the speed bonus with either a jump range bonus or something else more useful. Also which ever way they do it, JF's should get more range. The same as a carrier. So there you go CCP, I jumped in with two feet to be your guinea pig in this beta phase of eve and you have my observations on the situation. I should comment though that in my case, as a pilot, I do have a use for this ship that makes it very worth while to have. As a producer though, I've got stock laying around now as everyone's buying rorquals instead. I have a constant stream of people who are shocked when they hear the price then just go and buy a rorqual instead. Oh and final shameless plug hehe, if you are looking for one of these contact me hehe. Sincerely, Rawne Karrde
Sophie Daigneau The Theta Project GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.22 03:59:00 - [2] As someone who has 4 Anshars and now and Ark either delivered or under construction, I agree that there is currently an imbalance between the cost of the ship and the utility you get from that cost. As for the 3.6b number, take out the nerf to the number of runs on invented bpc's and base your costs on pre-trinity advanced materials prices and you are right about there, so CCP was spot on with that. They just didn't estimate right what the increased demand for the new ships would do to the T2 materials market.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.22 04:27:00 - [3] Another thing i have found with building the jump freightor is that since the ship array cannot repackage the t1 version of the freightor its pretty much impossible to make one without first having to build a brand new t1 freightor. Why the hell would i want a new t1 freightor if im building the t2 one? It should be made so that ship can be drug over into the advanced assembly arrays and be repackaged during the transiting between maint. array and the assembly array A bigger eve Annndd..Player Factions
Siltan	Posted - 2008.01.22 09:43:00 - [4] Originally by: ghosttr Another thing i have found with building the jump freightor is that since the ship array cannot repackage the t1 version of the freightor its pretty much impossible to make one without first having to build a brand new t1 freightor. Why the hell would i want a new t1 freightor if im building the t2 one? It should be made so that ship can be drug over into the advanced assembly arrays and be repackaged during the transiting between maint. array and the assembly array You can kind of get around this by building in a low sec station I belive (building one soon). but it would be annoying in 0.0. Just letting people repackage in a maintanance array would probably do the job.

CCP Oneiromancer	Posted - 2008.01.28 11:19:00 - [5] We are currently testing some boosts to the jump freighters on our internal servers; the changes should be available for testing on Singularity later this week. * all jump freighters are getting a 25% base cargo capacity increase. * all jump freighters are getting a 10% bonus to shield, armor and hull hitpoints per Jump Freighter skill level. * the speed bonus has been changed to a 5% agility bonus per racial freighter skill level. * the fuel needs reduction has been increased from 5% to 10% per Jump Freighter skill level. * there is an additional 5% cargo capacity bonus per racial freighter skill level. There will be a devblog about these changes soon, so please give your feedback there.

achoura	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:40:00 - [6] It was stated shortly after release that the invention of these ships was going to be made cheaper but you make no mention of this. Are those changes in addition to easier invention or a supplement to the current build costs? *The EVE servers and their patches*
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises Space Exploration and Logistic Services	Posted - 2008.01.28 12:54:00 - [7] Now those are some very interesting proposed changes, all rather nice. I shall hope at least some of them make it through. I really would, however, suggest you re-look at the idea to increase the number of runs obtainable on a BPC - all Capitals have a Max run of 1 - I don't see why a T2 version should be different. If you do, then I'd seriously look at the Decryptors once more, because the current stats are distorted. Anshar in the oven tonight
Elissen Amarr Serenity Inc	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:10:00 - [8] Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer We are currently testing some boosts to the jump freighters on our internal servers; the changes should be available for testing on Singularity later this week. * all jump freighters are getting a 25% base cargo capacity increase. * all jump freighters are getting a 10% bonus to shield, armor and hull hitpoints per Jump Freighter skill level. * the speed bonus has been changed to a 5% agility bonus per racial freighter skill level. * the fuel needs reduction has been increased from 5% to 10% per Jump Freighter skill level. * there is an additional 5% cargo capacity bonus per racial freighter skill level. There will be a devblog about these changes soon, so please give your feedback there. I am so glad now that I implemented skills properly for the last Jumpplanner . I do not have a Jump Freighter, but to me the changes seem good. I'm at work right now and do not have all the data handy, but the cargo increase would mean 50% increase at max skills? ---- Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning. Jumpplanner v2.2 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!

CCP Oneiromancer	Posted - 2008.01.28 13:13:00 - [9] Originally by: achoura It was stated shortly after release that the invention of these ships was going to be made cheaper but you make no mention of this. Are those changes in addition to easier invention or a supplement to the current build costs? Oops, forgot about that. The max production runs on jump freighter blueprints has been increased from 1 to 10.


CCP Oneiromancer	Posted - 2008.01.28 14:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Elissen I am so glad now that I implemented skills properly for the last Jumpplanner . I do not have a Jump Freighter, but to me the changes seem good. I'm at work right now and do not have all the data handy, but the cargo increase would mean 50% increase at max skills? Yes, max skills will mean +50% cargo capacity compared to the current numbers. So you'd have: Anshar: 351.562 m3 Ark: 344.531 m3 Nomad: 337.500 m3 Rhea: 367.968 m3 You also get -50% fuel consumption with max skills.


Skyr ECP Rogues The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:08:00 - [11] Edited by: Skyr on 28/01/2008 15:10:44 A rather interesting boost to the ship. Besides the most desirable jump range bonus not in the list, all the other changes look very good. Especially cargo change and fuel conservation. The resistance bonus is still silly, but at least it will now apply to every single HP on the ship, not to that 5k armor sliver as previously. Correct me if I am wrong, but does it mean that at L5 of Jump Freighter and Jump Fuel COnservation, the ship should consume 12.5% of nominal fuel amount?
Kalmanaka The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:19:00 - [12] The bonus listed above is to HP, not resistance (unless I'm missing something.) The current bonus is 10% to hull HP only, new bonus will be to shield, armor and hull.
Skyr ECP Rogues The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.01.28 15:47:00 - [13] Originally by: Kalmanaka The bonus listed above is to HP, not resistance (unless I'm missing something.) The current bonus is 10% to hull HP only, new bonus will be to shield, armor and hull. Whichever it is :). Point is the bonus is silly to begin with. If it is getting hit (unless it had gazillion HPs to begin with), it goes down regardless since it would be tackled and swarmed.
Tradik	Posted - 2008.01.28 16:56:00 - [14] Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer Originally by: Elissen I am so glad now that I implemented skills properly for the last Jumpplanner . I do not have a Jump Freighter, but to me the changes seem good. I'm at work right now and do not have all the data handy, but the cargo increase would mean 50% increase at max skills? Yes, max skills will mean +50% cargo capacity compared to the current numbers. So you'd have: Anshar: 351.562 m3 Ark: 344.531 m3 Nomad: 337.500 m3 Rhea: 367.968 m3 You also get -50% fuel consumption with max skills. Either something is wrong with your numbers, or something is wrong with my understanding of the planned changes. Quote: * there is an additional 5% cargo capacity bonus per racial freighter skill level. That says to me, instead of the current 5% cargo capacity bonus/racial freighter skill, it is now 10% cargo capacity bonus/racial freighter skill. So, using the example of the Anshar, it would be 225,000 x 1.25 = 281,250, to add the basic hull boost. Then, assuming racial freighter V, 281,250 x 1.5 = 421,875. Please tell me if I'm correct about this, or just going completely insane. If God had wanted you to live, She wouldn't've created me.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:16:00 - [15] Quote: * all jump freighters are getting a 25% base cargo capacity increase. From Omni's first post in this thread.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.01.28 17:24:00 - [16] Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer Originally by: Elissen I am so glad now that I implemented skills properly for the last Jumpplanner . I do not have a Jump Freighter, but to me the changes seem good. I'm at work right now and do not have all the data handy, but the cargo increase would mean 50% increase at max skills? Yes, max skills will mean +50% cargo capacity compared to the current numbers. So you'd have: Anshar: 351.562 m3 Ark: 344.531 m3 Nomad: 337.500 m3 Rhea: 367.968 m3 You also get -50% fuel consumption with max skills. Isn't the exact value at max skill about +56.25% increase if it's 1.25*1.25... Well, that's just a detail, but every bonus gets multiplied to the others, not added, which is always better for the final values with max skills. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II

CCP Oneiromancer	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:04:00 - [17] Yes, I suppose it's 56.something%, I've always been very bad at math. A clarification - the 5% racial freighter skill bonus to cargo capacity remains unchanged. I included that by mistake in my initial post. I've done some comparative testing between jump freighters, Rorquals and dreadnoughts, the latter fitted for maximum cargo capacity. The values compared were min/max base ship price, min/max module price, min/max fuel price (for a 6-jumps trip with Jump Calibration, Jump Freighters and Jump Fuel Conservation at level 4), available cargo space (values for level 4 and 5 of the racial freighter skill). The numbers alone for jump freighters are at least on par, if not better, than those for the Rorqual, especially with racial freighter skill at level 5. If anyone is interested I can post them here and you can double-check them.

Elissen Amarr Serenity Inc	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Skyr Edited by: Skyr on 28/01/2008 15:10:44 A rather interesting boost to the ship. Besides the most desirable jump range bonus not in the list, all the other changes look very good. Especially cargo change and fuel conservation. The resistance bonus is still silly, but at least it will now apply to every single HP on the ship, not to that 5k armor sliver as previously. Correct me if I am wrong, but does it mean that at L5 of Jump Freighter and Jump Fuel COnservation, the ship should consume 12.5% of nominal fuel amount? You can already jump 11.25 ly with Jumpdrive Calibration 5. Right now you can get the fuel usage from 3100 isotopes per ly base down to 1162.5 isotopes per ly (for the anshar). With the intended change (10% per level of Jump Freighter instead of 5%) you would max out at 775 isotopes per lightyear. See this - WARNING ROUNDED VALUES. It is 25% btw (0.5 * 0.5). Different ships here mean different fuel usage, but the percentages stay the same. ---- Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning. Jumpplanner v2.2 - Routeplanner for all jumpcapable ships!
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:29:00 - [19] Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer The numbers alone for jump freighters are at least on par, if not better, than those for the Rorqual, especially with racial freighter skill at level 5. I don't have a vested interest in this yet, but reading this sounded totally absurd from a balancing point of view. WTF - Jump Freighters are at least on par with the Rorqual? There shouldn't even be a question when comparing them. Jump Freighter's only purpose is to move stuff. If they are not unquestionably the best jump-drive ships for doing so, then why do we have them. If any other ship is "on par" with a Jump Freighter for jump based hauling, then there is no need or use for the Jump Freighters at all. They don't need to be over-powered, but there should be no question that Jump Freighters are better at hauling than any other jump capable ship in all cases.
Sophie Daigneau Risky Advanced Production Enterprises GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.28 18:38:00 - [20] Originally by: Matalino Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer The numbers alone for jump freighters are at least on par, if not better, than those for the Rorqual, especially with racial freighter skill at level 5. I don't have a vested interest in this yet, but reading this sounded totally absurd from a balancing point of view. WTF - Jump Freighters are at least on par with the Rorqual? There shouldn't even be a question when comparing them. Jump Freighter's only purpose is to move stuff. If they are not unquestionably the best jump-drive ships for doing so, then why do we have them. If any other ship is "on par" with a Jump Freighter for jump based hauling, then there is no need or use for the Jump Freighters at all. They don't need to be over-powered, but there should be no question that Jump Freighters are better at hauling than any other jump capable ship in all cases. I believe he was referring to the isotope cost per m3 of cargo moved for each ship being on par. Once you factor in the time saved by being able to jump over twice the amount of goods per trip, the JF wins the argrument quite easily.


CCP Oneiromancer	Posted - 2008.01.28 20:37:00 - [21] Well, no, I was referring to the overall ISK/m3 of cargo moved, factoring in the cost of the ship, modules (if any) and fuel. I haven't added the price of skills, however, I shall go through the numbers again tomorrow with this added factor. Also, keep in mind that the price of the jump freighters will likely fall in the following months as more and more people will produce them. The BPC run change should give the invention a slight boost and they will hopefully become less and less of a rarity. Not to mention the added benefits of jump freighters - like access to highsec space and the ability to use stargates, unlike the Rorqual. Oh, and it's "she". =)

Jouni Kalmar Gallente The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.29 01:59:00 - [22] Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer Also, keep in mind that the price of the jump freighters will likely fall in the following months as more and more people will produce them. The BPC run change should give the invention a slight boost and they will hopefully become less and less of a rarity. I disagree here, given that there will be more prints out there (10 times infact) assuming you're not messing with the success of invention jobs, the demand for the raws and components for these ships will rise, in turn the price will rise given the stupidly large number of base materials required to build them, and in turn increasing the over all production cost of the ship. (Ignoring the invention costs and bpc + copying costs) In addition to the above, the sell price will fall due to a higher avalibility of each ship and more competition due to those with a freighter bpc ready to invent holding out till the changes come in, any success gives them not 1 but 10. I do agree with the changes but 10 runs? shouldn't it be more inline with other invention and let the decryptor decide how many runs of ships you get? Yes it will make the ships less rare but the cost won't fall as far as i can tell and at the very least, without increasing the yeild of moon materials this will only help t2 ships of all kinds to remain over priced if not increase the prices more.
Tradik	Posted - 2008.01.29 04:31:00 - [23] Originally by: Jouni Kalmar In addition to the above, the sell price will fall due to a higher avalibility of each ship and more competition due to those with a freighter bpc ready to invent holding out till the changes come in, any success gives them not 1 but 10. I do agree with the changes but 10 runs? shouldn't it be more inline with other invention and let the decryptor decide how many runs of ships you get? I don't believe that's how its going to work. What she said was: Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer Oops, forgot about that. The max production runs on jump freighter blueprints has been increased from 1 to 10. That says to me that, using appropriate decryptors, the maximum amount of runs for a single bpc you can get is 10 runs. That doesn't mean every bpc will have 10 runs, simply the possibillity of having 10 runs. If God had wanted you to live, She wouldn't've created me.
Jouni Kalmar Gallente The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.29 05:11:00 - [24] Edited by: Jouni Kalmar on 29/01/2008 05:12:29 Originally by: Tradik <Snip> I don't believe that's how its going to work. What she said was: Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer Oops, forgot about that. The max production runs on jump freighter blueprints has been increased from 1 to 10. That says to me that, using appropriate decryptors, the maximum amount of runs for a single bpc you can get is 10 runs. That doesn't mean every bpc will have 10 runs, simply the possibillity of having 10 runs. fair point - i was home on my lunch break from work so my response and reading time were limited, but aside from that i'm sure u understand my point none the less. So long as the number of runs are still affected by the decryptor used then it won't be too bad, still though, more runs at higher negative me will mean more materials required and effectively still have the same effect. keeping in mind a single -1 me diffence on a jump freighter works out to be somewhere in the area of 700 mill isk. I pitty the poor fool who gets a 9 or 10 run -6me >.<
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.29 07:44:00 - [25] Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer Oh, and it's "she". =) There are no gurls on teh intarwebs. Everybody knows that. MMORPG = Many Men Online RolePlaying Girls. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
kurikymoko yasai	Posted - 2008.01.29 11:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Matalino Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer The numbers alone for jump freighters are at least on par, if not better, than those for the Rorqual, especially with racial freighter skill at level 5. ..... There shouldn't even be a question when comparing them. Jump Freighter's only purpose is to move stuff. If they are not unquestionably the best jump-drive ships for doing so, then why do we have them. If any other ship is "on par" with a Jump Freighter for jump based hauling, then there is no need or use for the Jump Freighters at all. They don't need to be over-powered, but there should be no question that Jump Freighters are better at hauling than any other jump capable ship in all cases. I kinda agree with this quote. Atm you definitively have a competition between the rorqual and the jump freighter. Sure with the boost the J freighter would haul about twice what the rorqual can haul but yet again it fail to address some of the mains issue with this ship and with low sec 0.0 hauling in general. First of all, we are not so much interested in costs of the ship, skill, isk/m3 ectc..... there are only two variable that are of interest: how much it can haul and how far it can jump. They all relate to safety of transport and nothing else. the more it can haul the less trip you have to make the safer it is since you are less exposed. the farther it can jump the less it stay in space and the less of a chore it is to make POS refuel run Atm the J freighter and the rorqual use differents techniques to achieve this goal. Jump freighter: Sure they carry a lot but they are atm very expensive and they are very predictable since they can not defend themselves and can't fit anything on them so you know their weaknes and they go pop pretty easily. Sure they can use star gate and can go in high sec but nobody in its right mind would travel in high sec with one of these ship atm and in 0.0 or low sec you don't really use stargate you actually use jump freighter to AVOID stargate. The only example where this feature would be useful is isolated highsec pocket in low sec space. The new planned bonus would be a benefit but it would still not make the freighter the best of best hauler. Rorqual: sure it can haul on paper less than the Jump freighter but the thing that take most space is minerals especially the lower end one. The rorqual with GSc can haul up to 170 Km3 in the cragohold plus 10K in the corporate hanguar and carebear ships filled with ammo and charge in the ship maintenance array and the 4 compressions lines. It can make for a lot and lot of stuff if you plan well the trip. Atm the small cargo limitation is not a huge issue. Sure it can't use gates or enter in high sec but hey it can tank, cloack and defend itself albeit just a bit. It is basically more flexible and versatile. The new bonus for the J freighter is a step in the right direction but ideally i would love a J Freighter which have a jump range between the carrier and rorqual range. It would add some interest in the ship abilities.
zacuis Great Big Research	Posted - 2008.01.29 21:14:00 - [27] very good to hear but i`d trade all those bonues for a carrier like range
D'wayne	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Jouni Kalmar I do agree with the changes but 10 runs? shouldn't it be more inline with other invention and let the decryptor decide how many runs of ships you get? Yes it will make the ships less rare but the cost won't fall as far as i can tell and at the very least, without increasing the yeild of moon materials this will only help t2 ships of all kinds to remain over priced if not increase the prices more. Totally with you. Someone would have to want to burn money to invent and build from a 10 run bpc. If it was in line with decryptors, you would get 10 runs of Anshar BPC at ME-6. They would cost a bomb to produce and the invention would cost a lot. Assuming it takes you seven or eight attempts to get a 10 run BPC, thats seven or eight freighter bpcs you would need. With increased demand the prices will go up when there aren't enough bpos owned by players to make enough copies. It would cost a phenomenal amount to get the bpcs. Thats on top of the build costs, which would only be worse. More people buying t2 materials for lower ME bpcs means price of t2 goes up, not down.
Valia Deluri Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.30 00:28:00 - [29] Originally by: CCP Oneiromancer Yes, I suppose it's 56.something%, I've always been very bad at math. A clarification - the 5% racial freighter skill bonus to cargo capacity remains unchanged. I included that by mistake in my initial post. I've done some comparative testing between jump freighters, Rorquals and dreadnoughts, the latter fitted for maximum cargo capacity. The values compared were min/max base ship price, min/max module price, min/max fuel price (for a 6-jumps trip with Jump Calibration, Jump Freighters and Jump Fuel Conservation at level 4), available cargo space (values for level 4 and 5 of the racial freighter skill). The numbers alone for jump freighters are at least on par, if not better, than those for the Rorqual, especially with racial freighter skill at level 5. If anyone is interested I can post them here and you can double-check them. Please post. I would like to see the numbers. My question is how does a 7.1 bil ship compare equally to a 1.5 bil ship? I have no need for high sec thanks to war decs and at least the Rorq can pretend to defend itself. It may take twice the jumps but at 20 mill a run it still looks cheaper. -Deluri Code of Deluri Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today.
Hardigeen	Posted - 2008.01.30 04:11:00 - [30] Why would someone pay 7 bil to be able to jump-haul when they can do the same thing with 1.5 bil ship? Even if it takes two or three jumps to move the same amount of material, it certanly is better then spending 7 bil on Jump Freighter. Either make Jump Freighters cheaper or remove the capability of other ships to be used as haulers. That way Jump Freighters will have their place in the fleet and will be worth the cost. No one wants to spend 7 bil on a ship if they can spend 3-4 times less and get the job done.



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