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S3VYN
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Posted - 2004.03.24 19:37:00 -
[1]
I've been watching this forum for quite some time and commenting where I thought my opinion or the opinions of those who had expressed concerns to me were valid. I've been fairly quiet for a couple of weeks while I tried to formulate exacting opinions of those characters who run through space calling themselves "pirates."
I've made the following observations and would like opinions posted on them...
Pirates are not bad. They are not bad for EVE, they are good for it. Pirating is a VALID chosen profession that requires an immense amount of time, skill, thought and teamwork to participate in effectively. My observation is that about 15% of those claiming to be "pirates" are actually effectively performing in their chosen career. I have spent the past few weeks talking to and trying to get to know more and more high profile "pirates."
This leaves 85% of those calling themselves "pirates" as under-achievers. This same 85% would under-achieve no matter their chosen profession and would likely still be just as raucous about their adventures.
There's a term used in many other games that I haven''t seen thrown around this community much. The term is "lamer."
A "lamer" is someone who either doesn't care to invest the time or doesn''t have it to invest to become successful at their chosen path in games. In many FPS games these are the people willing to take shortcuts to gain skill (aimbots, wall hacks, etc). Like any game, EVE has attracted its share of "lamers."
"Lamers" are bad. Not just for EVE but for any game. They take joy in ruining the game for other people much as a team killer would take joy in ruining games on generic public servers until they get banned. It happens all the time. These people negatively affect the EVE universe and with the new influx of gamers from other places they have the opportunity to affect it even more. In a real community based game such as EVE their effect is permanent.
My observation is that "lamers" are attracted to the "fringe element" in whatever game they play and activity they participate in. They hover in small, whispering groups in the school yards wishing they could be A) cool; B) bullies; but lacking the self respect to be either. In EVE, they follow notable pirates like puppies begging for a treat. They attempt to find favor with their idolized would-be mentors by spewing inferiority terms at every possible time in the direction of those they feel their superiors disprove of (see terms "Carebear" and "n00b"). Complaining about game dynamics, social situations and competitive situations much as a three year old complains about wanting candy instead of dinner. Most often, these "lamers" provide no valid solution for the problem they pose and instead continually complain about the problem (with no solution) until they are told at an official level to stop or they get their way.
It is possible I am off-base here. But in my opinion it would push the game much further along if the true pirate factions were to take the same stance agains "lamers" as anyone trying to further the game takes. There's nothing the "law abiding" characters can say or do that changes these "lamers" at all. Their eyes are fixed permanently upon their "pirate" idols. IMHO, it's up to the true "pirates" to silence this irreverant faction. After all, they are weak. They could be easily killed by anyone with any experience in-game if that person simply felt like taking the time to do so. They are the weakest link in the "pirate" chain and they are holding true "pirates" back from what could potentially be a much more entertaining career path.
Another observation is that these "lamers" consistanly demand that game mechanics be changed. Obviously, there are "lamers" on both sides of the "law." They demand that game mechanics be changed because it is "too difficult" for them to succeed. To those people I say this. If you aren't succeeding with the game mechanics as they are now, you will NOT succeed with them changed. They change for everyone, not just you, and those people who have been successful all along will continue that trend. Success is earned and if you are not willing to do the research and time to get there those who are will consistantly outperform you. This applies in every aspect of EVE AND in real life.
In closing, I know this post will be flamed by many who feel threatened. Probably even by some I have respect for. My goal is to pull back the veil of protection that is in place for the "lamers" and separate the wheat from the chaffe. There are a lot of "pirates" in EVE who are great people, amazing players and extremely effective social representatives. I'm tired of seeing the entire profession of "pirate" knocked simply because the unexperienced, loud and raucous wannabes are the ones who most people have experience with. Eliminate them from your ranks, pirates, and allow the true competition to begin.
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The views expressed by this poster are not the views of the poster's corporation, alliance, planet or television network... but they should be. |
hellwarrior
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Posted - 2004.03.24 20:00:00 -
[2]
for those that DO NOT know... s3vyn is a programmer hence his nerdy title...
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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2004.03.24 20:21:00 -
[3]
if (Piracy == good && Lameness == bad){
Eve = perfect;
}
 |
Eisha
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Posted - 2004.03.24 21:04:00 -
[4]
Wow! That was very well said!
I don't expect you to get many flames as you stated your case very well and didn't leave much for them to focus on as "carebear whinning".
"There is a ***** in everything,
thats how the light gets in." -Lenord Cohen |
Amox
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Posted - 2004.03.24 21:30:00 -
[5]
Very well stated.
The few run ins with pirates that I have had have been mostly with lamers. Trash talking wannbes. The only "true pirate" I ran across that made me go Oh sheit  . Never talked trash. Lucky for me someone else grabbed his attention. The lamers leave you ****ed off and the real pirates leave you saying "damn I won't let that happen again."
If you can't afford to lose it then leave it parked at the station.
Your Tachyon Beam Laser I perfectly strikes Blood Oracle, wrecking for 722.3 damage. |
Dekar
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Posted - 2004.03.24 21:56:00 -
[6]
Hence known by their other name: 'pvp mice'.
And you already know where I stand on this. Good post.
-------------------------------------------------
Lying Scumbag |
Darrin Tobruk
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Posted - 2004.03.24 22:06:00 -
[7]
Nice post. I hope the true pirates decide to take heed and clean house.
_______________________________________________
Eris Discordia: On the scale of funny and constructive it scores low, real low. |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.03.24 23:29:00 -
[8]
I don't know what side of the divide you see me on, but I don't feel it is my job to sort out the lamers.
If people can't tell the difference between 'real' pirates and lamers, then it is they that needs to put in more effort, not me. I get a few convos every week from players of all walks of life. I try to offer what assistance I can in regards to tactics, loadouts, etc. People who have spoken to me (apart from a couple) will know that I'm not here specifically to ruin someone's day (although I have, many, many times) I'm just playing my part in the universe.
Just because the lamers/griefers 'claim' to be pirates, it doesn't make it so. And I certainly don't feel that I have to do anything about them to save my own reputation. If someone is willing to pidgeon hole me with those types of players, then they are just displaying their ignorance. Me killing a few 'griefers' isn't going to change such closed minds.
The people that would understand this situation, already do.
The people that don't understand this situation, never will.
.
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Loctar
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:10:00 -
[9]
wow
very nice post and couldent agree more
There is no such thing as innocence, only various degrees of guilt |
k4rl
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:24:00 -
[10]
Very good post... Have a cookie :D
-Karl
--------
Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Republic Fleet Testing Facilities, wrecking for 1395.9 damage. (:D)
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Darrin Tobruk
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Posted - 2004.03.25 00:58:00 -
[11]
Drunk does have a point. Anyone with half a brain knows the real pirates from the trash talkers. The one will talk all day about his '133t' skills, the other will show you.
Yea, it's not the job of the real pirates to shoot down the idiots, but they should at least distance themselves from such rabble. And besides, if they don't want them, there's just more for the pirate hunters to shoot. (when they can get them outside a station  )
_______________________________________________
Eris Discordia: On the scale of funny and constructive it scores low, real low. |
Manasseh Rephaim
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Posted - 2004.03.25 01:16:00 -
[12]
Your post was well said and I only wish that some parts of it were placed as a forum sticky. I believe why many ppl choose to take short cuts is due to not having the internal fortitude of character to truly own their characters. What I mean by that is simply this...
Yes, many ppl play Eve, but in every game there is a high percentace of ppl who lack the discipline needed to invest their time, talents, skills, and mental aptitudes to make the kind of progress others have achieved. While these same ppl want to be called a true "Gamer" or "Pirates", they are
casual/generic game players at the most who are trying to master the game in a matter of weeks even though Eve''s dynamics require much more strategy and effort than this.
I have the most respect for the pirates who are true masters of their profession. They study the universe of Eve looking for opportunities & weaknesses, read the forums on various Eve related web sites, rehearse tactics for many circumstances, practice using various ships and module setups, utilize the Test Server, seek to learn from the changes made from patches, desire knowledge from others in their profession with better skills, etc. To these type of ppl in the pirate profession I commend and take my hat off to for they are true pirates. As for those who take short cuts in the game and are senseless, reckless, and simple minded...they will not last long at all. They will eventually quit the game to turn around and carry their shallow minded selves into another game and repeat their skill of being lame. They are buy a wisk of a breath. Here today and gone tomorrow.
Same thing goes for anyone who plays in a fashion of wanting to make progress while not committing themselves totally. You may say "but Eve is just a game", yes it is however, I bet if one would look at a lamers personal RL, we''d find the same sloppy undisciplined shell in one or more areas there too.
Enuff said.
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Tenacha Khan
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Posted - 2004.03.25 01:17:00 -
[13]
In eve you could view everybody as being lame. People are different and as just about everybody in this game plays to have fun, thats alot of different types of fun.
I believe that staying in high sec security space is lame, but when i was a noob i didnt.
I believe that camping empire gates is lame, but when i was doing it, i didnt see it that way.
Now that Ive moved on to something else, I dont think its lame, but hell i might do in a couple of months.
Furthermore in your post you said that people wanting things changed makes them lame, well I believe that everyone has their right to an opinion and can voice it and people who say they shouldnt are lame (even though some proposed changes are stupid).
 Quote:
I've been fairly quiet for a couple of weeks while I tried to formulate exacting opinions of those characters who run through space calling themselves "pirates."
If people want to call themselves pirates, then let them. A pirate is just an unlawful captain, whether it lives up to your standards or not.
with sentry guns increased (because of lamers complaing in your opinion) and more of them, it will push some pirates out in to 0.0, then the eve universe will sort them out and weed the strong from the weak.
All in all, I do agree with your post, that some rotten apples make the whole group look bad, but i never asked to be put in any group....
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SYCO
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Posted - 2004.03.25 05:42:00 -
[14]
hmmm look at that i posted........hmmm thats not construtive enough......theres another "post".......i'm saying putting a class on players is needless and un needed.....we are all "players"...not lamers or whatever u wanna call it
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Isang Relow
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Posted - 2004.03.25 06:36:00 -
[15]
Syco go away.
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Zyanid
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Posted - 2004.03.25 07:56:00 -
[16]
S3VYN: That was probobly the best post in this subject i have ever read on these forums and i totally agree!
I've had encounters with both sides.
In aurohunen for example(before the 150km sentry range) i've encountered both sides.
very skilled "pirates" who seriously whoop your but. Then i've met lamers there who trash talked me ALOT for just warping away from them bashing me. =)
bts. Excellent post and im 100% with you. Pirates are needed in EVE. Lamers are not.
//Zy
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Psyrex
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Posted - 2004.03.25 08:13:00 -
[17]
I totally agree.
True gamers take the time to sit back and take a look at the game and then find out the best solution to a problem.
True Pirates = True Gamers.
A true pirate will find your weakness and then use it to his/her advantage.
They will do this with your ship and they will do this with Eve.
They use the tools that are provided and this is how they become (for the want of a better word) Elite.
You look at the Jokers, these pirates have earnt the respect of many pilots (pirate and non-pirate) because they have taken the time to learn the skills & tactics to perform a role to the best of their ability.
Players that put the effort into this game will receive respect out of it.
Players that just moan all the time will receive nothing (apart from a few torps from annoyed pilots)
S3VYN your post was spot on and I commend you.
---------------------------------------------
The world is a battle field, pass me my gun!
The Black Ops Recruiting.
combat Your 425mm Railgun I perfectly strikes XXXXXXXX, wrecking for 518.0 damage. |
Adriana
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Posted - 2004.03.25 08:14:00 -
[18]
I will respectfully disagree with you on one point. Pirates are not needed in Eve. PvP IS needed. Pirating is just a choice. Having said that however, your post is excellent overall, I think you made some excellent points, I don't expect the pirates to police themselves though. I don't think most of them care. The ones that do care would be fighting an uphill battle.
Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
-Napoleon Bonaparte |
0rigin
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Posted - 2004.03.25 09:23:00 -
[19]
BLiNK.BLiNK.
yea. well said man.'
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Silverlancer
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Posted - 2004.03.25 11:04:00 -
[20]
Great post! And so true. I've met tons of lamers in EVE...
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.03.25 11:17:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Zarquon Beeblebrox on 25/03/2004 11:40:58
I have been a pirate hunter, hunting 24/7. Iv seen verry few lamer pirates. A pirate that dont want to fight agains 1:4 ods are not a lamer. A pirate that smack talk are in my view a lamer.
I ame now a pirate, i have been so for about as long as i was a pirate hunter. I pirate 24/7. In this time i have come a cross many more lamers then i did as a pirate hunter. This lamers are never from the known and less known PVP corps (pirate hunters or like) But most of the lamers are miners and npc hunters. Captains that probably dont want to pvp but still come out of empire. When we then attack them or ransome them, they becomes the bigest lamers iv seen in eve.
Truth told, most captains that dont pvp are not lamers, its just that the lamers iv met have not been pirate, pirate hunter, pvp players but from the rest of the eve community.
Thank god, eve dont have many lamers, and most players are nice if you are nice.
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Razaelle
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Posted - 2004.03.25 11:36:00 -
[22]
I am bit doubtfull about the "15 % true pirates / 85% wannabe famous without work". Maybe I have been simply lucky, as I have rarely been confronted to "lamers". But I know from my experience in other games that lamers are not so common. But this type of "wannabe cool" likes to be watched and heard, and so they make more noise than the regular player.
Other than that, good post.
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McWatt
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Posted - 2004.03.25 12:06:00 -
[23]
Edited by: McWatt on 25/03/2004 12:09:01
i don t want to disturb the group hug, but:
1. i don t think that it s helpfull to introduce another term for ppl to call each other into the game. aren t "griefer" "carebear" "noob killer" etc enough?
2. ccp has done very little to support the playing style of "nice" "real" pirates. in fact i m not sure wether they understand the concept at all.
3. there is lot s of truth in tenachas post above.
4. there are lame ppl in both camps. but as always, the splinter in the eye of your neighbor...
5. you re trying to take a neutral and high morale standpoint with this post.
to put things into perpspective, from recent posts:
Quote:
I'm just about sick AND TIRED of people who say they want to fight but are too much of a n00b to do so in 0.0 space.
your point on sentry gun range increase. you re claiming a huge part of space here. and you re asking noob pirates to learn the business in 0.0.
Quote:
You're role playing a criminal... doesn't that eliminate your ability to request help from the authorities? Pay someone to move their your for you... and pray they show you more mercy than most get shown by criminals.
your comment on a pirate asking a GM to be moved after the recent change of security status in the system he was in.
i d kindly ask you to seriously check which category you fall in.
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.03.25 12:12:00 -
[24]
Quote:
In EVE, they follow notable pirates like puppies begging for a treat. They attempt to find favor with their idolized would-be mentors by spewing inferiority terms at every possible time in the direction of those they feel their superiors disprove of (see terms "Carebear" and "n00b").
I was Brought to Piracy By Scalor Valentis - he fundet me (a little) and teached me baisiks (i learned em fast - but there is still much to learn, now, allways )
and yes - i kinda idolise him and respekt him (dunno for begging for treats - but he is helpping me a lot, but so am i if i get opertunaty to help him)
so - am i lamer?
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2004.03.25 12:40:00 -
[25]
EVE pirate = a player that manages to earn money with his combat skills or at least to hold his finacial level. This is the hardest way to play the game and with this definition there are no lamer pirates at all in the game.
As miner it¦s possible to earn 100 millions every day with 2-3 hours playing the game. A miner might lose his ship to a pirate but it¦s no big deal if it was insured.
As producer/refiner/market freak it¦s possible to earn a lot of ISK in empire space. No risk at all and work can be "done" offline by selling/buying/producing.
As pirate u need to be in front of the screen from the first second u log in to the last. There are thousands of enemys and the ships defend themselves or can flee in most cases. It¦s a lucky day if a pirate manages to earn 10 million ISK in 3-4 h of playing. Lamer or not - pirates choose the hardest way to make money and to be true: i woulndt like to be a new player dreaming of a pirate career...no chance at all for a n00b.
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Randuin MaraL
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Posted - 2004.03.25 13:02:00 -
[26]
Sorry, have not read earlier - excellent post and soooo true.  :cool:
____________________________________________________
Never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die.
MEDUSA veteran, Khumaak Award winner |
S3VYN
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Posted - 2004.03.25 13:42:00 -
[27]
Quote:
5. you re trying to take a neutral and high morale standpoint with this post.
to put things into perpspective, from recent posts:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm just about sick AND TIRED of people who say they want to fight but are too much of a n00b to do so in 0.0 space.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
your point on sentry gun range increase. you re claiming a huge part of space here. and you re asking noob pirates to learn the business in 0.0.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're role playing a criminal... doesn't that eliminate your ability to request help from the authorities? Pay someone to move their your for you... and pray they show you more mercy than most get shown by criminals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
your comment on a pirate asking a GM to be moved after the recent change of security status in the system he was in.
i d kindly ask you to seriously check which category you fall in.
Both continue to hold true. I don't think I'm inconsistant in my statements. I was addressing one of the "lamers" when I wrote both of those posts.
First was someone mad because they couldn't gate camp an empire gate any more and the other was upset because his security rating was too low for him to get his ships across a system which had recently been moved to 0.5 from 0.4. Note that in this case he was never IN the system when it was a 0.5 ORIGINALLY. He was only there to kill newbies on their way to and from level 1 agent missions.
The point is, both of these people's issues could have been easily solved had they spent their violent time in 0.0 space like they are supposed to. In both cases, 0.0 space was only a single jump away. These people made a concious choice to kill in empire space and had done so for a long time without concern. Much like newbie players making a choice to fly through a 0.1-0.4 they took risks, now those players who were complaining are faced with similar risks because they didn't keep their fun in 0.0 (where a newbie should keep their fun in 1.0-0.5).
So my point on those two (even though they are off-topic for this post I feel I need to defend my stance) that they were complaining about something they had created themselves. Much like people complaining about having their ore stolen and the secure can rebuttal.
I feel my point stands. Lamers are just that. Lame. They should be systematically sought out and eliminated from the ranks of any self respecting corporation.
------------------------------------- //
The views expressed by this poster are not the views of the poster's corporation, alliance, planet or television network... but they should be. |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.03.25 14:39:00 -
[28]
Quote:
First was someone mad because they couldn't gate camp an empire gate any more and the other was upset because his security rating was too low for him to get his ships across a system which had recently been moved to 0.5 from 0.4. Note that in this case he was never IN the system when it was a 0.5 ORIGINALLY. He was only there to kill newbies on their way to and from level 1 agent missions.
You've blown your whole argument out of the water with this.
Comments like that are a sign of ignorance.
And also a weak attempt to rally people to the aid of newbies. Invoking the name of 'newbie level 1 agent runners' is not going to win you any credit here. How do you *know* that's what he was doing? Did you ask him? Did he tell you? Or are you simply guessing? Or worse still, miaking up his reasons for him, in the vain hope that they will bolster your side of the argument.
Calling people noob killers to garner sympathy from the people who truly don't know what the situation is, is weak.
.
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Jebidus Skari
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Posted - 2004.03.25 16:15:00 -
[29]
Quote:
the other was upset because his security rating was too low for him to get his ships across a system which had recently been moved to 0.5 from 0.4. Note that in this case he was never IN the system when it was a 0.5 ORIGINALLY. He was only there to kill newbies on their way to and from level 1 agent missions.
I can't let that slide because it's about me. I wasn't moaning about my sec rating being too low, it's all bought and paid for and I like it being low thankyou very much. My stuff was in that 0.4 because I had been helping out a corp for a weekend that has it's HQ there and had never previously visited that system pre-Castor. I was complaining that the mechanics of the game had changed without suitable warning giving me no chance of moving a ship I had stationed there back into low sec space and the GM's were being needlessly inflexable. So at least attempt to know the facts before printing out your version of events.
I have no complaints about piracy in this game, perhaps that it has had no love from the Dev's ever  . There are poeple who are good at it and people who are terrible at it but they are trying to have fun. Me personally, I just get on with the job and never smack talk in local towards my potential victims, that's just not my style. I certainly haven't moaned about sentry gun increases because tbh I just don't care enough about the subject, I prefer hunting in belts and around spawns ransoming people where I can.
This game suffers too much from needless catagorisation of peoples play styles that gets used against them in some form of personal attack 
If you don't like people you deem as 'lamers' kill them or ignore them don't moan about them, it's pointless.
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.03.25 16:15:00 -
[30]
Quote:
EVE pirate = a player that manages to earn money with his combat skills or at least to hold his finacial level. This is the hardest way to play the game and with this definition there are no lamer pirates at all in the game.
As miner it¦s possible to earn 100 millions every day with 2-3 hours playing the game. A miner might lose his ship to a pirate but it¦s no big deal if it was insured.
As producer/refiner/market freak it¦s possible to earn a lot of ISK in empire space. No risk at all and work can be "done" offline by selling/buying/producing.
As pirate u need to be in front of the screen from the first second u log in to the last. There are thousands of enemys and the ships defend themselves or can flee in most cases. It¦s a lucky day if a pirate manages to earn 10 million ISK in 3-4 h of playing. Lamer or not - pirates choose the hardest way to make money and to be true: i woulndt like to be a new player dreaming of a pirate career...no chance at all for a n00b.
am3n
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