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Question about cross-traning Matari HACs

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Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:56:00 - [1] I am currently training up for Minmatar 'dictors and HACs, the main ships that I wanted to be able to fly are the sabre and vagabond () however, obviously, as a result I will be ably to fly the Munnin. My question is: what are the downsides to the Munnin versus the vaga (I realize how different they are) on paper it appears to be the PWNAGE but many people make detracting statements about it (with about the same frequency as people who love it), however, these same people don't really go on to explain what the issues with it are. The bottom line is, do I bother training up T2 Arties? Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Candy King	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:08:00 - [2] The Vaga and the Muninn is 2 totaly diferent shipps.. While the Vaga is a fast shield tanker with a perfect bonus for autocannons, the Munin is a slow boat, with a more focus to an armor tank.. But, what makes the Munin shine is a full rack of 720mm t2's It's an damage dealer in any gate camp, and a good long range sniper (anti suport) as for training up to t2 artilleries or not.. I'd say yes, it's worth it in any posible way. The skills required will help you'r autocannons preform better, and on topp of that you'll most likely want to gett into something bigger down the road. so having the skills for t2 medium artileries will help you on the way to gett t2 large ones! :) On a side note, if you ever find yourself wanting to cross over to amarr, gallente or even some of the caldari shipps.. all you'll be missing to gett the t2 rails will be small and medium hybrids lvl5 I'd say go for it! The Candy King!
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:27:00 - [3] The muninns biggest problem is that, like the Deimos, it generally goes "foof" if it ever comes under concentrated fire. And like the Deimos it has a tendency to do so since everyone knows that it has a lot of firepower and that it generally goes "foof" when ever it comes under concentrated fire. However, it's still 5 double-bonused guns so... ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Candy King The Vaga and the Muninn is 2 totaly diferent shipps.. While the Vaga is a fast shield tanker with a perfect bonus for autocannons, the Munin is a slow boat, with a more focus to an armor tank.. But, what makes the Munin shine is a full rack of 720mm t2's It's an damage dealer in any gate camp, and a good long range sniper (anti suport) as for training up to t2 artilleries or not.. I'd say yes, it's worth it in any posible way. The skills required will help you'r autocannons preform better, and on topp of that you'll most likely want to gett into something bigger down the road. so having the skills for t2 medium artileries will help you on the way to gett t2 large ones! :) On a side note, if you ever find yourself wanting to cross over to amarr, gallente or even some of the caldari shipps.. all you'll be missing to gett the t2 rails will be small and medium hybrids lvl5 I'd say go for it! The Candy King! I have all the support skills to IV or V for rails anyhow (I fly caldari now) and its just a question of do I train small and med. arty spec up? Also, what is the general "optimal" of a Munnin? Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:35:00 - [5] TBH you have to be crazy to crosstrain minmatar to fly a vagabond, unless you've got a massive amount of support gunnery skills and nearly perfect navigation and well.. yea, training any min ship needs a ton of sp. Anyway, about your Muninn, the optimal you can generally get around is 90-100, with about 20 falloff. It can vary by about 15k optimal depending on you setup of course.. damage is great for its class, but so-so compared to the hurricane. Problem with the muninn is.. anything the muninn can do the hurricane can do better, for the approx 10 mil insurance cost :P _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Haradgrim The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon TBH you have to be crazy to crosstrain minmatar to fly a vagabond, unless you've got a massive amount of support gunnery skills and nearly perfect navigation and well.. yea, training any min ship needs a ton of sp. Anyway, about your Muninn, the optimal you can generally get around is 90-100, with about 20 falloff. It can vary by about 15k optimal depending on you setup of course.. damage is great for its class, but so-so compared to the hurricane. Problem with the muninn is.. anything the muninn can do the hurricane can do better, for the approx 10 mil insurance cost :P I already do almost have perfect gunnery support skills (from training up t2 sniper rokh), my main ship is a crow (so navigation....) and I'm training up for t2 AC anyhow so I need virtually all the other reqs. Your comment about the hurricane is intriguing, however, I was of the imperssion (perhaps wrongly) that the hurricane was not an effective Arty platform (as in much better with AC)? Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:44:00 - [7] Edited by: Vanessa Vale on 23/01/2008 20:44:38 Originally by: Haradgrim The bottom line is, do I bother training up T2 Arties? Muninn, another minnie ship in a sorry state. Close range a hurricane does what a muninn does and cheaper. Long range it got nerfed quite nicely due to the sensor booster thing and minnies poor range.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 20:46:00 - [8] Originally by: Haradgrim Originally by: Dromidas Shadowmoon TBH you have to be crazy to crosstrain minmatar to fly a vagabond, unless you've got a massive amount of support gunnery skills and nearly perfect navigation and well.. yea, training any min ship needs a ton of sp. Anyway, about your Muninn, the optimal you can generally get around is 90-100, with about 20 falloff. It can vary by about 15k optimal depending on you setup of course.. damage is great for its class, but so-so compared to the hurricane. Problem with the muninn is.. anything the muninn can do the hurricane can do better, for the approx 10 mil insurance cost :P I already do almost have perfect gunnery support skills (from training up t2 sniper rokh), my main ship is a crow (so navigation....) and I'm training up for t2 AC anyhow so I need virtually all the other reqs. Your comment about the hurricane is intriguing, however, I was of the imperssion (perhaps wrongly) that the hurricane was not an effective Arty platform (as in much better with AC)? Well, hurricane can field 6 artys and has an extra mid slot (tracking computer) to make up for the optimal and tracking loss. And an extra low to either help you fit better, more damage, or a sensor enhancer, or tracking enhancer. _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2008.01.23 22:54:00 - [9] My Muninn setup. Does funny alpha which smaller ships just love, and is basically the smaller brother of an artysleip. Instead of tanking it relies on the MWD to stay out of trouble's way, however, but it also helps with manipulating range. I'd train arties just for the damage mod to be honest.. --- CEO
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.23 23:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Jin Entres My Muninn setup. Does funny alpha which smaller ships just love, and is basically the smaller brother of an artysleip. Instead of tanking it relies on the MWD to stay out of trouble's way, however, but it also helps with manipulating range. I'd train arties just for the damage mod to be honest.. Link no worky. _______________________________________________ Minmatar will always go faster than you, get over it.
VJ Maverick Caldari R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.24 02:55:00 - [11] Originally by: Jin Entres My Muninn setup. Does funny alpha which smaller ships just love, and is basically the smaller brother of an artysleip. Instead of tanking it relies on the MWD to stay out of trouble's way, however, but it also helps with manipulating range. I'd train arties just for the damage mod to be honest.. FOUR gyros = wasted low slot. Originally by: Bodhisattvas by the way you keep on missing the "a" from pwn, do you need any help with its placement?
Johan Quinn	Posted - 2008.01.24 10:52:00 - [12] I've actaulyl been using a Munnin with Autocannons in a high sec war and it is sweet. Oodles of damage, just doesnt tank that great.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:01:00 - [13] Funny this topic came up. I finally found a useful role for this ship. Standoff support versus drones/fighters. And other small junk. If you even need to deal with clouds of such a couple Muninns in mid-range sniper mode work a real treat. Try something like this (if you train Med Arty T2 and can fit the rest--I think its a fairly common Muninn setup): 5x720 T2 (Tremor) 2xHML (whatever is appropriate) 1xT2 MWD 1xSB T2 (range scripts) 1xTC T2 (tracking speed scripts) 3xGryo T2 Sig Amp T2 (or whatever) 1xPDS T2 1xACR 1xAnti-kin (or whatever) rigs 5xEWAR drones (just in case you get noticed and approached) -Nice midrange optimal (approx 70k with Tremor...balances nicely with HML range) -Excellent tracking on small junk (drones/fighters) -Drones and fighters go pop pop pop pretty quickly (look for close range support getting webs on things...shoot those first). I don't fly it often...and it really could use some sort of attention to make it more scary at close range (it really is an expensive Rupture up close)-but after a recent capital engagement I found it has a niche use in that arena. You are pretty much comparing a Porsche to a hammer drill when trying to side-by-side the Muninn and Vagabond. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Vanessa Vale	Posted - 2008.01.24 13:35:00 - [14] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Jin Entres My Muninn setup. Does funny alpha which smaller ships just love, and is basically the smaller brother of an artysleip. Instead of tanking it relies on the MWD to stay out of trouble's way, however, but it also helps with manipulating range. I'd train arties just for the damage mod to be honest.. FOUR gyros = wasted low slot. Wrong. Four gyros = higher alpha. In select cases it does make sense.
Garat Mant Minmatar Moons of Pluto	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:11:00 - [15] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Wrong. Four gyros = higher alpha. In select cases it does make sense. Wouldn't 3 gyros + 1 track enhancer make more sense? (or a t2 suitcase, EANM or similar?) -- CEO, Moons Of Pluto industrial corporation. Recruiting mature players!
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:18:00 - [16] 3 gyros = wasted low, imo. Can almost always find something more useful that that little extra DPS 'cept in large fleets where tank is irrelevant, but you're better off using a 'cane there (it also has a double damage bonus, and one more turret). A former corp mate was all pumped when he finished training for HACs. Had a Munnin all setup so he could hop in it ASAP. Now, about 6 months latter, he won't fly one, always preferring a vaga. Bottom line, train T2 arties, put them on a cane.
VJ Maverick Caldari R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Jin Entres My Muninn setup. Does funny alpha which smaller ships just love, and is basically the smaller brother of an artysleip. Instead of tanking it relies on the MWD to stay out of trouble's way, however, but it also helps with manipulating range. I'd train arties just for the damage mod to be honest.. FOUR gyros = wasted low slot. Wrong. Four gyros = higher alpha. In select cases it does make sense. The fourth gyro increases your alpha by a measly 2.8%. I'd call that a wasted low slot. Originally by: Bodhisattvas by the way you keep on missing the "a" from pwn, do you need any help with its placement?
Jin Entres Malevolent Intervention	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:41:00 - [18] Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Vanessa Vale Originally by: VJ Maverick Originally by: Jin Entres My Muninn setup. Does funny alpha which smaller ships just love, and is basically the smaller brother of an artysleip. Instead of tanking it relies on the MWD to stay out of trouble's way, however, but it also helps with manipulating range. I'd train arties just for the damage mod to be honest.. FOUR gyros = wasted low slot. Wrong. Four gyros = higher alpha. In select cases it does make sense. The fourth gyro increases your alpha by a measly 2.8%. I'd call that a wasted low slot. The difference in rate of fire may mean the difference between getting a second volley in. And the extra DPS compensates for shooting within falloff (basically an increase in optimal range will also only add to DPS by increasing hit quality), but unlike extra optimal the extra DPS is applied within optimal aswell. The Muninn's role in a gang is to deal damage and in my opinion the fourth gyro is well justified. Up to preference really if you want to go with something else. --- CEO
zayanka	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:15:00 - [19] with munnin you get 50% to optimal range bonus and a nice tracking bonus.My optimal is between 92 and 105 km plus falloff (depending if i fit tracking enchancer or i-stab in last lowslot), with cane you dont get such a bonus. Even if it fit 3 tracking ench t2, 2 tracking comps t2 I get optimal of 81 km (all skills to lvl5) So munin outsnipes the cane. Also if u r travelling in munin from fleet ops solo, u get a chance to pick your fights, while in a cane, any cruiser size ships easily locks you before warping out

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