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Hactors the Final Straw for Low Sec Missions?

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Bom Bolenath	Posted - 2008.01.24 14:18:00 - [1] In light of recent discussions about the relative worth of low-sec missions, it seems important to discuss the obvious changes to low-sec brought about by Hactors with the focussed targetting script. With sensor boosters or signal amps, a hactor can instalock about anything coming through a low-sec gate these days. So, while you thought you were safe stabbing out your BS or CS to move to a neighboring system for a mission, this is no longer the case. In effect, Low sec just got a whole lot more dangerous for mission runners, and a forward scout is now mandatory for moving between systems. I'm sure you all knew this already, but just a heads-up for those still thinking their stabs are gonna save their PVE boats in low sec. One might ask whether CCP considered the effect of these changes on places like Motsu. Was making low sec a whole lot more pirate-friendly AND nerfing LP stores AND making it easier to probe down ships in deadspace) supposed to encourage carebears to get out of overrun high sec PVE hubs?
Darth Achari	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:01:00 - [2] Originally by: Bom Bolenath AND making it easier to probe down ships in deadspace When did this happen?
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.24 15:22:00 - [3] HIC thread of the week! Stay tuned next week, there will be another whiner. -_- My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis HIC thread of the week! Stay tuned next week, there will be another whiner. -_- If you got nothing to constructive to say, shut up. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:34:00 - [5] Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 24/01/2008 16:33:58 Originally by: Bom Bolenath making it easier to probe down ships in deadspace) Its actually harder to find mission areas now because you can't scan for wrecks, not easier. The reason it is more prevelant (or the whines are) is because there are more people trying because all the missioners crying about it on the forums are giving others ideas. Every mission runner in Motsu that has cried about their salvage being stolen has contributed to the numbers of rogue salvagers out there Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.24 16:36:00 - [6] While HIC's definitely do drive yet another nail in the coffin of low sec space, it's not primarily because it hurts mission runners. It impacts travellers the most, making travel through low sec just that little bit more dangerous. Scouts were already required in low sec, that's nothing new. It does make blockade runners built in warp core strength bonus completely useless, and WCS in general (but weren't they anyway?) But even before HICs the best way to escape a camp was to fit for agility and get out before they can lock you. (Which of course, makes the Crane the absolute worst blockade runner - lowest agility, fewest low slots, and one of those low slots has to be used to boost it's atrociously small powergrid so it can fit a MWD) But once a mission runner gets to his 'home' he's not as vulnerable to the HIC as people are who try to make a living hauling through low sec. The biggest blow to low sec missioning was the removal of the 1k isk per lp nexus chip offers, which has triggered a sudden plummeting of LP values. And of course, the main reason to mission in low sec as opposed to hi sec is the greater LP rewards. Now those are worth a lot less than before, and lo sec mission running, which was already one of the worst ways to earn ISK in the game once you factor in pirates, is even more unimpressive now. CCP managed to work multiple nerfs to low sec into a single patch: I'm impressed.
Bom Bolenath	Posted - 2008.01.24 17:22:00 - [7] Edited by: Bom Bolenath on 24/01/2008 17:22:31 Originally by: Ulstan Scouts were already required in low sec, that's nothing new. It does make blockade runners built in warp core strength bonus completely useless, and WCS in general (but weren't they anyway?) My point was that WCS was a way of life in low sec for PVE'ers who didn't have the advantage of multiple accounts to scout with. Missions constantly require a jump in either direction, but with 6 or so WCS on your boat, it was pretty unlikely that you'd hit a camp that could really threaten you. Dock up, replace your lows, and voila. . a safe ride to the mission. I wasn't posting this to whine so much as to bring this to the attention of more carebears. A lot of low sec denizens I've met are slow to accommodate to the new dynamic introduced by HICs with scripts in low-sec. I'm happy to acknowledge that this affects haulers more than mission runners, but it doesn't make this a less relevant post on the PVE forums.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:13:00 - [8] yeah, I'm not so sure these hics were well thought through. The operating philosophy was that if you wanted to fight, you should be obligated to finish it, that's why we saw nano-ships continuously nerfed, and the sig penalties added to WCS. Which makes sense. And if you wanted to avoid fights, then you could load up WCS and it would take a few dedicated and organized peeps to do so. Problem is now it takes one hic to do the job of 4 tacklers, not to mention that hic has a marvelous tank. Basically, if people thought ships with EW immunity were imbalanced, I don't understand how a ship with WCS immunity is any different. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Agif Templar Republic R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:27:00 - [9] Yes its possibly going to be a problem but thats why u have a corpie scout ahead and if you dont have that luxury then get another account... cant do either of the above stay in empire :( TBH ppl will adapt and overcome to change its the way its always been in EVE. Something happens and for about 6 months its a constant forum bash but ppl soon adapt and it kinda gets forgotten because CCP brings in a new issue and we forget the old one and Whine with the new problem. Its the way, always will be. /Agif --------------- EvEmissions - Level 5 Missions - Updated 22/01/08
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:32:00 - [10] Quote: TBH ppl will adapt and overcome to change its the way its always been in EVE. But the best way to adapt is just to stay out of low sec entirely. Given that low sec is already too dangerous for most people to consider living there, this is a trend in an unhelpul direction
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Agif TBH ppl will adapt and overcome to change its the way its always been in EVE. Yes, and in this case adapting means gtfo of lowsec for missions, giving you less targets. Happy?
Westly Synpa GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Ulstan Quote: TBH ppl will adapt and overcome to change its the way its always been in EVE. But the best way to adapt is just to stay out of low sec entirely. Given that low sec is already too dangerous for most people to consider living there, this is a trend in an unhelpul direction well jee no kidding a ship that can almost instalock and has infinite strength warp jamming meaning you aren't going to get out of it short of a loggoffski and hope to hell you have a big enough of a tank. low sec was bad enough before but you could manage if you didn't suck now its entirely pointless without a couple scout alts that you rotate with enough frequency that they dont know its you.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.24 18:47:00 - [13] If only there were some way to break a HIC's lock... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.24 19:23:00 - [14] I've been thinking that the HIC might be a bit over the top for lowsec. It fixes a big problem in lowsec (gatecamping motherships), but it does make WCS essentially worthless. HICs are pretty common now and that trend will most certainly continue as more and more people train into them. So, welp, good thing I spend most of my time in 0.0 anyway! If I had been at the controls, I probably would have made the HIC field 1 point that ignores the invulnerability of motherships and titans. From there you could boost up the strength until it's where you want it. ----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..."
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.24 20:02:00 - [15] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Angel DeMorphis HIC thread of the week! Stay tuned next week, there will be another whiner. -_- If you got nothing to constructive to say, shut up. Actually, what I said was very constructive, though succinct and witty. Here's the long version: This thread has already been made. There was one last week (maybe even more than one). There was nothing added to the current complaint with this thread. If there is anything to be added, why not add it to an existing thread? Bringing a thread back after a week is not a necro. Finally, as to the last few words of my sentence, I was stating my stance on the subject, that you are a whining carebear that doesn't want to take the time to think about how to counter something like this (ECM, dampener) or avoid it in the first place (scouts, warp to zero, MWD+Cloak, etc). So, as you can see, very constructive. I suppose I could have also said all that this way: It's been said before, so STFU. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.01.24 21:48:00 - [16] Edited by: Qui Shon on 24/01/2008 21:51:33 Originally by: Angel DeMorphis So, as you can see, very constructive. I suppose I could have also said all that this way: It's been said before, so STFU. And until something changes, it's going to be said again, and again, and again. That's because it needs to be said. Deal with it. As for ecm + damp, yeah, great chance of that working, Should I fill my mids with all racial ecm's now and just hope for the best? And I should rely on this for every second mission, because that's about as often as I'll need to jump systems. And if I do this, it means I don't have stabs, and that means a single disruptor will hold me in place. No, if I've got brains and care about isk/h, I will definitely stay the hell out of lowsec, and lowsec will get emptier and emptier. This is the effect you are cheering and defending. Great thinking, really great. To answer an earlier post, yes, HICs were the last nail in the coffin of lowsec missionrunning. Not the only one, but the last, definitive one. Btw deMorphis, your idea of wit seems a bit... rudimentary.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:08:00 - [17] The problem is that Heavy Interdictors Don't require dictors IV in the first place so every one can train them when they go for t2 cruisers
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.24 22:15:00 - [18] Quote: Actually, what I said was very constructive, though succinct and witty. Actually, you're 0 for 3.
jongalt	Posted - 2008.01.25 00:01:00 - [19] Edited by: jongalt on 25/01/2008 00:01:53 a pilot has no commensurate increase in efficacy to deal with HiC's. they have exactly the same options as before they were introduced. to me, that merits a topic for discussion on the possibility the Warp Disruption Generator is "unbalanced" in low-sec. -jg.
Bom Bolenath	Posted - 2008.01.25 03:35:00 - [20] As the OP, I'm happy to accept that other threads on the topic exist. I don't read ship forums and haven't seen mention of heavy interdictors in this forum, which I do read regularly. In light of the new CCP news item on Hactors in empire, which my original post preceded by only a couple hours, I move that this thread be condisered obsolete. The message is out there. Hactors change low-sec dramatically. Caveat Carebear.
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:18:00 - [21] Originally by: Bom Bolenath As the OP, I'm happy to accept that other threads on the topic exist. I don't read ship forums and haven't seen mention of heavy interdictors in this forum, which I do read regularly. In light of the new CCP news item on Hactors in empire, which my original post preceded by only a couple hours, I move that this thread be condisered obsolete. The message is out there. Hactors change low-sec dramatically. Caveat Carebear. Would you mind pointing to where this news item is? I'm very interested in reading it. Thanks! One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Sid Fernwilter Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.25 12:31:00 - [22] Tbh i don¦t really see the problem. Low-sec was never a good place for a SOLO mission runner anyway. What it takes to run missions efficiently in low sec is a group/corp that work together to assist/protect/scout eachother. Much like 0.0 but to a lesser degree where smaller groups can succeed and the numbers needed is not so high. Another thing that said group needs is a will to fight when needed. Yes, i¦m a pirate , but me and my corpmates regularly run missions too , to get those implants/isk or just when nothing else happens. I have never had to fail a mission due to other players, sometimes maybe i¦ll miss out on the time bonus because pew-pew comes in the way before i can finish, but thats really just a bonus. Just my thought on the subject / Sid
Bom Bolenath	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:03:00 - [23] Sid: Your point is well taken. Although I was grinding lowsec level 4 navy missions solo like nobody's business in an Abso until I decided I needed a new challenge and went to level 5s. Lowsec solo missions are quite possible and I'm sure lots of folks are still doing 'em. You train yourself to spam the scanner, move away from warp-in points asap, set neg. standings to local pirate organizations, and, yes, plan on losing a boat from time to time. I do have multiple accounts and can scout my way in lowsec without any concern. My issue wasn't so much about my own discomfort as it was about lowsec and PVE dynamics. The CCP "heavy interdictor story" is not in the Player News Center at present, but I get it at my character selection screen when logging into eve. Headline reads: Stopped in your Tracks û The Heavy Interdictor Story reported by: ISD Clarity Brown \| 2008.01.24 15:21:43
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.01.25 15:14:00 - [24] Ulstan summarized situation quite well. HiC is not an issue for low sec missionrunners. Well ok, it's one of the added dangers, but that alone would be inadequate to 'break the back' of lev 4 missions. Problems is that it's already more profitable to run lev 4 in hi sec in faction pimped ride, than in low sec in T2 fitted ride. Before counting in time spent safespotted or docked up waiting hostiles to pass. While lev 5 missions were intended to add unique content into low sec to lure people out there they are largely failed. Low sec is suburb you drive thru doors locked when you move from hi sec into 0.0 or vice versa.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.25 17:03:00 - [25] Quote: Lowsec solo missions are quite possible The issue is not 'can you do low sec missions' without dying. Sure you can, as long as you spam the scan button continually and warp off to dock/ss any time you see probes go down or see other ships show up. The point is that you earn so little money this way, compared to missioning/ratting in 0.0 or missioning in empire, that it's hardly worth the risk. I deliberately missioned in low sec for a while and was constantly, constantly being interrupted by pirates. I only lost a ship once, but the incessant needs to warp off and having to 'fly cheap' in case I did lose a ship cut my ability to finish the missions quickly way way down.
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2008.01.25 19:59:00 - [26] The news team and the dev team are not interrelated, so the news item doesn't necessarily dictate what the intended role of HiCs was supposed to be. And it certainly doesn't mean that their abilities aren't being evaluated.
Bom Bolenath	Posted - 2008.01.25 20:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Ulstan The issue is not 'can you do low sec missions' without dying... The point is that you earn so little money this way, compared to missioning/ratting in 0.0 or missioning in empire, that it's hardly worth the risk. Again, point taken. Although you assume that the risk is an undesirable part of the whole calculus. Sure, I prefer not to lose my ride while running missions, but what's more odious is relatively risk free, high-sec PVE where I get no thrills whatsoever. Further, your mileage with low-sec missions (Cal Navy, I presume?) cannot be generalized. Oyonata/Sahtogas in bleak lands are home to a pair of 4-20 Imperial Navy agents. Until this whole Blood vs Navy NPC/cosmos/faction warfare crap came to town, it was pretty dang quiet. I ran scores of missions there without so much as a single covops sniffing me out. All I'm saying is that I'm sure quiet low-sec hubs still exist out there. Then again, if not in Amarr space, where?
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.25 21:49:00 - [28] The thing is, anyone can look up where the good agents are. Pirates can find and camp them very easily, because they are static. While it's quite easy to find good backwater places to rat in low sec, finding good backwater mission running locations is almost an oxymoron, because everyone is attracted to the good mission running locations. Quote: Until this whole Blood vs Navy NPC/cosmos/faction warfare crap came to town I'd actually love to hear more of the actual in game effects of this. Typically I ignore all CCP's storyline stuff but this sounded vaguely interesting...what exactly has been going on?
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2008.01.25 22:51:00 - [29] Originally by: Bom Bolenath Stopped in your Tracks û The Heavy Interdictor Story reported by: ISD Clarity Brown \| 2008.01.24 15:21:43 Strangely enough, the place to find this story on the eve-o website is in the News Archives for January 2008, a link for which appears to only be accessible on the RSS Feeds page. http://myeve.eve-online.com/feed/ Go figure. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Dalen III Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.01.26 03:40:00 - [30] Your BS's before in a normal pirate macro camp that you guys believe are every where wouldn't make it thru no matter how many WCS are equiped. If you want to run missions in low sec act like the rest of the low sec crowd which includes pirates,industrial,and anti-pirate corps. I'm not trying to be mr negative but thats how low sec is. Don't blame me, blame the main I'm supporting.

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