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Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
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Posted - 2008.01.24 19:50:00 -
[1]
Who is a true patriot? Is a true patriot the man who fights alongside his people or the man who slaughters civilians? Is a true patriot the woman who puts all of her faith in the government or the woman who watches her children starve?
To me, patriotism is love of you country. What is a country? It is the people who make up that country. My people are the the people of the Federation.
The people of the Federation are not the Gallente but all races. Perhaps not accepted equally but accepted more willingly than any place I have traveled to. My loyalty is to these people.
My loyalties do not demand that I seek out others to conquer for the honor of my people, honor does not feed anyone. My loyalties demand that I make the Universe better for my people. I make the Universe better by providing jobs. I make the Universe better by working to make it safer. At times this requires taking up arms to protect my people and other times requires putting those arms down to avoid a conflict that would take lives unnecessarily.
I also work to make the universe better for my people by protecting them from the government when necessary. Governments in themselves are not evil. The Federation works hard to provide for its people but like any organization of great power, it attracts those would would use power for evil. It is not absolute power that corrupts absolutely but absolute power that corruption desires absolutely.
I call on the patriots of all nations. I implore you to understand that your patriotism is not for your government but for your people. You government may have your people's best interests at heart but there will always be individuals in the government that only have their own interests at heart.
Those who are reading this message are among the elite. We who fly pod ships have power greater than entire systems weald. We have the power to make a difference. When we come across those who are corrupting our governments and hurting the very people we serve. We can use our powers politically, economically or militarily to ensure the corrupt will not be able to use power for evil.
Remember that patriotism is loyalty to your country and your country is the people who are a part of it.
"I may not believe in what you believe in but I will fight to the death to protect your right to believe." |
Ikasu
Gallente
The Durandal Organization
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Posted - 2008.01.24 20:00:00 -
[2]
Very well said, and a far more interesting speech then I thought it would be when I opened my comms to it. A lot of people seem to think the Government of the Federation makes up what it is in it's entirety, but really, it's the people who make up our space and the code in which we live by. Any race, anybody with any believes, are welcome to live in the Federation be in on a station or planet, and make a life. It's something I'm proud to say. Maybe one day they'll be less focus on what someone's bloodline says they are, and more focus on who they are at heart and in mind.
-------------------------------------------------
Attention Devs, for every isk you send me one member of your family will be returned safely.
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Anwylyd Al'Vos
Minmatar
LightSpeed Industries
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Posted - 2008.01.24 20:33:00 -
[3]
Indeed, well said. And I would add that a patriot would also support his/her government for the aims of improving the administration, and inspiring new and perhaps better perspectives in it's leadership.
In the end, though, it does all come down to what is best for the people said patriot serves with their actions and intent.
_
. - Justice, Mercy, and Faith
My soul has horizons further away than those of early mornings, deeper darkness than the night |
Kabajashi San
Minmatar
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.01.24 21:27:00 -
[4]
These are words worth reading and they don't apply to the Federation only...
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Hasek
Caldari-Raata Heavy Metals
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Posted - 2008.01.25 02:38:00 -
[5]
So your saying a nation is its people wherever they are? What about the dirt and rock their ancestors walked on, the air they breathed, and the water they drank and swam in? Are these things not just as important? I for one consider them as important and maybe even more important for people lead short lives the rocks and air were there before humans and will be there long after our species is dust. The Gallente Federation holds our home world hostage and every breath i take from now to my last is spent rectifying that. All the death and destruction i spread across this universe has one goal, the return of Caldari Prime to Caldari Sovereignty.For while we may die our children and their children's children will be able to walk on those same rocks and dirt and swim in those same seas and drink of that same water.
Moe Dame! <Never Again>
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Admiral Serrano
Raata Fleet Command
Aunni Ti Tsuun Consortium
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Posted - 2008.01.25 03:47:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Admiral Serrano on 25/01/2008 03:48:12
I think the term patriot is very subjective.
I consider myself a patriot, but not to the State, or the CEP, but to the Caldari people and culture.
In someways I feel and act in a similar way as the OP (but towards my own people) and as such I feel that the CEP and the "State" has failed the Caldari people, but a so called loyalist patriot who was a follower of the CEP would disagree.
Some dictionary definitions say that a "Patriot" is someone who loves and defends his country.
Using that definition the "loyalist" patriot would be correct by definition.
But I believe a country is a co-operative body intended to further the interests of the people that make up the population of that country. Strength in numbers so to speak.
To that end I serve the people not the body politic.
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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.01.25 04:03:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dex Nederland on 25/01/2008 04:05:19
That is one view, a view born out of Gallente culture and a belief that your ideals and morals above those of others.
But what happens when the people forget their past? What happens when they reject the culture that defines that nation? What if the people of the Federation decided to turn against their democratic ideal and appoint a monarch? What if the people of Republic decided to have an oligarchy control their destiny? By your definition, your populist definition of patriotism, the patriots, those most loyal to the ideals that form the foundation of the nation, must turn on the ideals of the nation.
Your definition allows every pilot, regardless of their true intentions to call themselves a patriot because they will argue what they do they do in the name of the People! And when the next patriot arises to overthrow what the last patriots created? What then? The patriots will be in chains or worse.
No, patriotism is far more than an allegiance to the people that make up each nation.
Patriotism is being loyal to an ideal. The patriot may very well turn on the government, but they may also fight the popular movement. Patriotism is more than simply supporting the will of the people.
edit: removed unnecessary component
- Sun Tzu: The art of war is of vital importance to the State. - |
Marahk T'or
Hand Of Muritor
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Posted - 2008.01.25 04:16:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Dex Nederland
What if the people of Republic decided to have an oligarchy control their destiny?
An oligarchy does indeed control the Republic's fate.
As events on Gelfiven V demonstrated, it does not require the peoples' permisson. Just overwhelming force against their own populace.
Originally by: Dex Nederland
what happens when the people forget their past? What happens when they reject the culture that defines that nation?
Ask Karin.
_______
The fire burns bright! |
Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
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Posted - 2008.01.25 16:36:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Drethon on 25/01/2008 16:42:59
Originally by: Hasek
So your saying a nation is its people wherever they are? What about the dirt and rock their ancestors walked on, the air they breathed, and the water they drank and swam in? Are these things not just as important? I for one consider them as important and maybe even more important for people lead short lives the rocks and air were there before humans and will be there long after our species is dust. The Gallente Federation holds our home world hostage and every breath i take from now to my last is spent rectifying that. All the death and destruction i spread across this universe has one goal, the return of Caldari Prime to Caldari Sovereignty.For while we may die our children and their children's children will be able to walk on those same rocks and dirt and swim in those same seas and drink of that same water.
Moe Dame! <Never Again>
I believe as well that what happened in the war was wrong. It would have been a great risk but the Federation could have allowed the State to leave and then only defended itself should the State have attacked instead of trying to crush the State. Unfortunately what was done is hard to take back.
What results do you see from the destruction that you spread? Do you find the State being improved and its people living better or do you find increased mistrust and our people being drawn closer to war? How many lives is the return of Caldari Prime worth?
My people are more valuable to me than my lands and holdings. I've chosen to give up everything more than once. Others may not feel the same.
Originally by: Dex Nederland
But what happens when the people forget their past? What happens when they reject the culture that defines that nation? What if the people of the Federation decided to turn against their democratic ideal and appoint a monarch? What if the people of Republic decided to have an oligarchy control their destiny? By your definition, your populist definition of patriotism, the patriots, those most loyal to the ideals that form the foundation of the nation, must turn on the ideals of the nation.
What would be the problem with our people deciding that what worked for past generations no longer works? What is the problem with choosing to reject democracy and following a monarch? The monarch would have the same responsibilities as the senate currently has, to work for the needs of the people.
Should the monarch lead his or her people properly then this government would be no different than a good democracy. Should a monarch abuse his or her position it is no different than a bad senator. The form of government means nothing, what the government does means everything. Different types of governments simply have different risks.
"I may not believe in what you believe in but I will fight to the death to protect your right to believe." |
PiF
Gallente
TAKAGI Corp
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Posted - 2008.01.25 16:54:00 -
[10]
Wise words. However, the Federation haven needs to be protected.
Know something ? Sell it to the NeXus network |
Hasek
Caldari-Raata Heavy Metals
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Posted - 2008.01.25 18:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Drethon
What results do you see from the destruction that you spread? Do you find the State being improved and its people living better or do you find increased mistrust and our people being drawn closer to war? How many lives is the return of Caldari Prime worth?
Sometimes I make money off of it sometimes I lose money, money i need to buy skills ammo and ships, but I always gain experience. One Day I will be able to return Caldari Prime to the Caldari People or at the least I will have gotten the Caldari People one step closer to returning home. So you ask how many lives is that worth? As many as it takes to see it happen.
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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.01.25 18:53:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Drethon
What would be the problem with our people deciding that what worked for past generations no longer works? What is the problem with choosing to reject democracy and following a monarch? The monarch would have the same responsibilities as the senate currently has, to work for the needs of the people.
Should the monarch lead his or her people properly then this government would be no different than a good democracy. Should a monarch abuse his or her position it is no different than a bad senator. The form of government means nothing, what the government does means everything. Different types of governments simply have different risks.
The masses are a fickle. Willingness to support the will of the masses regardless of what the masses think is not patriotism.
What happens when the will of the people is divided? What then?
When half of the Federation wants to throw the full weight of its Navy in support of the Minmatar against the Amarr and the other half thinks there are more pressing matters at home. What will you as a patriot do?
What about when a minority in your population is seeking autonomy and yet the rest do not wish to allow them this autonomy? What will you as a patriot do?
The patriot does not simply follow the will of the people. Far from it; the Patriot holds to and fight to defend an idea, a concept, a belief, etc. If a Gallente ideal is to ensure that the will of the majority is enacted then that is Gallente patriotism, but that is not patriotism.
Many times the patriot must go against the will of the people in order to create, achieve, or maintain the belief, ideal, or concept. The people many times do not know or care about the greater cause of the nation and only care what what the nation can provide them. The patriot is the opposite, the patriot does not care what the nation can provide him or her, they care what they can provide to the nation.
- Sun Tzu: The art of war is of vital importance to the State. - |
Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
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Posted - 2008.01.26 00:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Dex Nederland
What about when a minority in your population is seeking autonomy and yet the rest do not wish to allow them this autonomy? What will you as a patriot do?
What is the result of preventing the autonomy of a group against their will? This group will likely attempt to retaliate through active or passive rebellion. As a result the government will have to expend resources to bring this group under control. In the end, keeping this group under control will use more resources than it expends.
If the group is allowed their autonomy they may find the situation undesirable and wish to return. Also they may decide to attack the people who they have just left, in this case the government may need to control this group as they are too dangerous to leave on their own.
On the other hand it may not be a group that is wanting to leave but certain individuals that are trying to push what they want. If this is the case, the individuals should leave but not expect the group to follow if that is not what they want.
I never claimed that being a patriot was uncomplicated, just that a patriot has to try to understand what the people want and that it may be different from what the government thinks the people want.
"I may not believe in what you believe in but I will fight to the death to protect your right to believe." |
Merdaneth
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.01.26 12:00:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Drethon
Who is a true patriot? Is a true patriot the man who fights alongside his people or the man who slaughters civilians? Is a true patriot the woman who puts all of her faith in the government or the woman who watches her children starve?
To me, patriotism is love of you country. What is a country? It is the people who make up that country. My people are the the people of the Federation.
Each patriot defines another group as 'his people', each patriot defines another country as 'theirs'. If the government agrees with the patriot, he'll support them. If the patriot disagrees, he will simply take up arms against the government 'for the people'.
These patriots are merely deluding themselves. They do not fight for 'their people' or 'their country', they simply fight for their own selfish desires.
Why would you, for example, arbitrarily defend people that the Federation has given citizenship, but fail to defend people that are merely passing through the Federation but do not hold citizenship?
____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Furio Shin
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2008.01.26 15:32:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Furio Shin on 26/01/2008 15:33:04
Eli Manning > Tom Brady
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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.01.26 17:02:00 -
[16]
The masses care for nothing more than their own personal safety. The patriot is the person who sacrifices their life, their existence, every resource, to protect the security and prosperity of the whole. Without the patriot, the masses would go through their existences unwilling to approach challenges to their culture and way of life.
The patriot does not defend the people or the governmental system. The patriot defends the culture and way of life of those people and its governmental system.
I would argue that Sansha's Nations followers are examples of patriots. They have no people from which to get their opinions except themselves. They are fighting for an idea and a way of life. While I disagree with that way of life and do not support it, they can rightly claim to be patriots of Sansha's Nation!
Might the government be corrupt? Yes, but until it has strayed to such a degree as to no longer be agreeable with the culture and people it serves it is the duty of the patriot to work within the system to return it to the ideal. Revolutions seldom are bloodless and more often than not leave the culture and people open to domination by foreign agents.
Should the people stray from that culture and that way of life, it is the duty of the patriot to remind them of their past and the great culture to which they are entitled.
Quote:
I never claimed that being a patriot was uncomplicated, just that a patriot has to try to understand what the people want and that it may be different from what the government thinks the people want.
But you did try to simplify it to following the will of the people. That simplification would cause an organization to change its course based the fickle wants and demands of the masses. Nothing would be done or achieved.
- Sun Tzu: The art of war is of vital importance to the State. - |
Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
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Posted - 2008.01.27 03:09:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dex Nederland
But you did try to simplify it to following the will of the people. That simplification would cause an organization to change its course based the fickle wants and demands of the masses. Nothing would be done or achieved.
Based on this statement I get the impression that you are advocating that regardless of the current desires of the people the government should continue in the ways it has always done. While I understand this perspective I feel that ignoring the desires of the masses can be dangerous.
When a people find themselves disagreeing with their leadership, they will seek new leadership. They may choose to look for those they agree with from their current government, from their peers or possibly from those who oppose their current government. When a civil war begins the people become vulnerable. They are vulnerable due to the possibility of recession and the weakness to external attack.
Should the government use all its resources to keep the people in line or should it make some concessions to make the people happy. At what point is ignoring the people's desires a greater risk that allowing for their wishes?
"I may not believe in what you believe in but I will fight to the death to protect your right to believe." |
Dex Nederland
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.01.27 16:31:00 -
[18]
So you did not read the rest of my response where I state that the patriot may have to go against the government and/or the people?
Originally by: Drethon
Should the government use all its resources to keep the people in line or should it make some concessions to make the people happy. At what point is ignoring the people's desires a greater risk that allowing for their wishes?
I would say most of the time. Many times the people, the masses lack all the information, lack the necessary education, lack the big picture view that those in positions of power hopefully have. So simply making concessions to the people's desires without talking to the minority of experts on the course that is about to be embarked on will cause greater risk than taking the advice of the minority of experts. There are of course times when the two align and it will appear that the desires of the people are being answered.
Quote:
I get the impression that you are advocating that regardless of the current desires of the people the government should continue in the ways it has always done. While I understand this perspective I feel that ignoring the desires of the masses can be dangerous.
I do not understand how you got that impression from the quoted statement. I am advocating that the desires of the people are subject to rapid change based on the present. Good governments should be looking beyond today and even tomorrow to next year and beyond. A government that continues in the way it has always done it may have a very long term view.
Governments are suppose to attend to the needs of the people. Governments are suppose to ensure the people's security and prosperity.
The people's desires are wants, not needs. These wants vary from day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year, planet to planet, moon to moon, system to system, constellation to constellation.
You defined patriotism as
Quote:
To me, patriotism is love of you country. What is a country? It is the people who make up that country. My people are the the people of the Federation.
The people of the Federation are not the Gallente but all races. Perhaps not accepted equally but accepted more willingly than any place I have traveled to. My loyalty is to these people.
I disagree with your basic definition.
To me patriotism is a love of one's country. One's country is represented by its culture, values, and ideals. It is the duty of the patriot to fight for and defend one's country: its culture, values, and ideals.
I also find your definition to be laden with Gallente values and egalitarian ideals. These are not compatible with Caldari values and ideals. Everyone is not equal, some people work harder than others, some are smarter, and through their merits these people rise above the rest and may guide the whole to greater prosperity.
- Sun Tzu: The art of war is of vital importance to the State. - |
3ll3
Gallente
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.01.27 19:48:00 -
[19]
I may not understand what a true patriot may be but I do know this if you follow your heart and belive in your friend and family/corp/alliance then you can never truely go wrong.
Following what you feel to be right and having the convictions to follow your heart no matter where it takes you along the path of life, that to me is what a true patriot is though what do I know - heh
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Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
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Posted - 2008.01.28 02:51:00 -
[20]
Dex Nederland, you make some very interesting and valid points but my other convictions are allowing the discussion to stray. At a later point I would like to discuss some of your points further in a different topic.
There are the subjective needs of the people but there are also the less subjective needs, it is these needs that I am trying to address. Regardless of your perspective of the importance of the needs of the people I think you would agree that sometimes there are those in the government that who will misuse their powers.
If a member of the intelligence community uses his power to attack peaceful operations for his own profit, would you disagree that these people need to be dealt with? It is this misuse of government power that I believe all patriots should be prepared to fight against.
"I may not believe in what you believe in but I will fight to the death to protect your right to believe." |
Gervais Zhang
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.02.08 06:36:00 -
[21]
I think 'patriotism' is, like many labels, only useful for propagandists. Patriotism is not a virtue, because, as this discussion demonstrates, its meaning is so broad as to lack utility save when used only by people who share a definition.
For me, I don't fight for the people, or the planets on which they live. However, I'd do just about anything, give all I had to the last breath and the last drop of blood, to preserve the body of ideals and philosophy, the compromise of liberty and freedom with the rule of law, that define the Gallente Federation.
Does that make me a patriot? I don't give a damn.
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Selene Dukat
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Posted - 2008.02.10 09:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Drethon
Who is a true patriot? Is a true patriot the man who fights alongside his people or the man who slaughters civilians? Is a true patriot the woman who puts all of her faith in the government or the woman who watches her children starve?
To me, patriotism is love of you country. What is a country? It is the people who make up that country. My people are the the people of the Federation.
The people of the Federation are not the Gallente but all races. Perhaps not accepted equally but accepted more willingly than any place I have traveled to. My loyalty is to these people.
My loyalties do not demand that I seek out others to conquer for the honor of my people, honor does not feed anyone. My loyalties demand that I make the Universe better for my people. I make the Universe better by providing jobs. I make the Universe better by working to make it safer. At times this requires taking up arms to protect my people and other times requires putting those arms down to avoid a conflict that would take lives unnecessarily.
I also work to make the universe better for my people by protecting them from the government when necessary. Governments in themselves are not evil. The Federation works hard to provide for its people but like any organization of great power, it attracts those would would use power for evil. It is not absolute power that corrupts absolutely but absolute power that corruption desires absolutely.
I call on the patriots of all nations. I implore you to understand that your patriotism is not for your government but for your people. You government may have your people's best interests at heart but there will always be individuals in the government that only have their own interests at heart.
Those who are reading this message are among the elite. We who fly pod ships have power greater than entire systems weald. We have the power to make a difference. When we come across those who are corrupting our governments and hurting the very people we serve. We can use our powers politically, economically or militarily to ensure the corrupt will not be able to use power for evil.
Remember that patriotism is loyalty to your country and your country is the people who are a part of it.
Loyalty is a fine thing. Blind loyalty is the enemy of patriotism. Many times through history, the true patriot has been the person willing to defend the noble ideals that birthed his or her country in the face of a ruling tyranny that has betrayed those ideals.
Patriotism that says, "Our country, right or wrong" is not worthy of anyone. The most valuable right we have as living beings is the right to oppose both flag and country when we believe them to be in the wrong. Sometimes true patriotism - a passionate allegiance to to the ideals that cause one to pledge loyalty in the first place - requires dissent.
An important thing to remember.
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