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Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.26 15:22:00 - [1] I'd like to propose a destroyer-class vessel that features a sort of "alignment cannon." That is to say a main gun which does a fairly heavy amount of damage but requires that the destroyer be aimed at its target. Each race would have its own version in terms that the Amarr would have some kindof "mighty laser purging the heretics etc.etc." while for the Gallente/Minmatar/Caldari it would be more akin to an actual cannon. The trade off for the weapon would be the sheer size of a single round/charge and the time between shots. Used in conjunction with Interdictors, the Main Gun Destroyer (for lack of a better term)would effectively serve as a sort of "Capital/POS Killer," receiving bonuses to defense which will allow it to withstand enemy capital damage long enough to fire. The main gun could still be applied to destroying lesser targets such as battleships and below, however the requirement that the weapon be aligned to the target would be difficult to achieve with small, swift targets; meaning that only an idiot would let himself get hit by an MG round if he's smaller than a freighter. Naturally, webefiers provide some additional balancing to hitting smaller targets like battleships. I most certainly have more considerations to work out, but I believe that having such a vessel would significantly deepen the strategies in EVE.
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2008.01.26 15:49:00 - [2] I kinda like the idea of artillery cruisers, being similar to that of the ion frigates in Homeworld. Basically as you suggest a gun that requires a tonne of cap (say 75%) on a cruiser sized ship. It would be the equiv of a glass cannon, very fragile, but packing a lot of damage. It would be good to give newer players a role in POS attacks, not removing the need for capships but giving counters. I like it :)
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.26 15:59:00 - [3] Thanks for the opinion. I think that "glass cannon" is a bit defunct in EVE though, since all veterans would have to do is primary them early. Ranges of 100-150K with the main gun would, in my opinion be good if "glass cannons" were actually developed, but for closer ranges I believe heavy tanking with poor EW protection would suffice. Though in my mind, the main gun should be able to fire without a lock. Since the Main Gun would have to use a lot of capacitor for its cannon, having only 2-4 turret/missile slots (6 in the case of, say, a less damaging version) would be all the defense such ships should mount. My idea is that the cannon is most heavy, but like any artillery crew must rely on the enemy being at the front line and not in their midst. The expanded role of new players would also be to be the "cannon killer," piloting small fast ships to neutralize enemy Main Guns whilst the vets duke it out in the heavy ships. Of course, adding TWO classes of Main Gun Destroyer would help in regards to both of our ideas. A "glass" cannon that does EXTREME damage when aligned, at long range, but with defenses made of rice-paper and spit. And an "iron" cannon that does great damage when aligned, at slightly less long range, but with good defenses. Either way, these ships are meant to be sledgehammers, not flyswatters.
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.26 16:17:00 - [4] Swapping over to how such ships might look... I think that the commonly seen CONCORD battleships look kindof like what I image; a long ship with a hole for the round to come out of. Whilst I know that the Amarr are naturally predispositioned against anything resembling the word "Ammo," or for that matter "Victory," I believe that such a large laser simply MUST be fired using pre-charged rounds, if only to avoid drawing too much capacitor charge and neutering ones self. I think the firing rate for a Main Gun Destroyer should be somewhere in the range of, say, once every 2-5 minutes. The skill for the ship should improve time on the main gun's cycle. Speaking of charges, such massive charges would need plenty of space, thus providing a reason for big cargo, heavy armor, and turret slots enough for weapons that can swat a fly but not a swarm.
Trent Valtine Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.01.26 16:46:00 - [5] Perhaps the Amarr cannon, instead of using ammo, would have the capacitor to only fire one shot and a poor cap recharge rate.
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.26 17:03:00 - [6] That could work, but I feel that in this case, the main gun should use rounds for all races, charges in the case of Amarr (like a giant battery). The restrictive aspect applies to the cargo capacity of Main Gun Destroyers. Part of my thoughts are that main guns, being removed from the main sphere of battle, serve as artillery and afterwards can jettison their unspent charges and harvest wreckage.
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.26 18:01:00 - [7] If I seem to be smothering out people with my thoughts on this, please do not let that deter you from making your own opinions and ideas known.
Kai Veritas	Posted - 2008.01.26 19:40:00 - [8] I have thought for awhile there should be DDs that perform some of the same functions as their salt water cousins. How about they can carry a couple of very big torpedoes with a very short range? These would mount only at a station, so once they are gone they cannot be reloaded until returning to base. The DDs would need some special consideration to help them hit when within range as most pilots of these small ships would not have developed skills with large missiles. They would probably need to drop about two high slots for this. Another use of DDs in WW1 was to lay down a smoke screen to disguise the movement of larger ships. This is an interesting idea to explore. They could have an area effect making it harder to target friendly ships in range or something on that order. And in SiFi, DDs provide close support for larger ships in a group. Being able to fire interceptor rockets against incoming missiles that are targeting the fleet, not just them. As a mater of fact this was also their function in WW2 against airplanes. There are many other ways this concept could be put in play. The DD should be the most common war ship in space. They should be very flexible in their missions and even a large ship should give them respect. This will certainly happen if they can carry big hunken torps.
Raxxius Maelstrom	Posted - 2008.01.26 20:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Kai Veritas I have thought for awhile there should be DDs that perform some of the same functions as their salt water cousins. How about they can carry a couple of very big torpedoes with a very short range? These would mount only at a station, so once they are gone they cannot be reloaded until returning to base. The DDs would need some special consideration to help them hit when within range as most pilots of these small ships would not have developed skills with large missiles. They would probably need to drop about two high slots for this. Stealth bombers do this. Quote: Another use of DDs in WW1 was to lay down a smoke screen to disguise the movement of larger ships. This is an interesting idea to explore. They could have an area effect making it harder to target friendly ships in range or something on that order. Recons do this Quote: And in SiFi, DDs provide close support for larger ships in a group. Being able to fire interceptor rockets against incoming missiles that are targeting the fleet, not just them. As a mater of fact this was also their function in WW2 against airplanes. There are many other ways this concept could be put in play. The DD should be the most common war ship in space. They should be very flexible in their missions and even a large ship should give them respect. This will certainly happen if they can carry big hunken torps. In Eve the cruiser class hulls largely fill the roles you point out. Just saying...
Tarron Sarek Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.01.26 21:25:00 - [10] I guess "dorsal mount" is the word you're looking for. ___________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well - Please stop using the word 'nerf' Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.26 23:23:00 - [11] The "big @$$ torpedo" idea has occurred to me a few times, I personally think it would be a great idea to have a massive torpedo filled with hundreds of FoF missiles that lock after the main missile explodes. My idea for the Main Gun Destroyer is rather more akin to the old naval broadside, albeit from the front in this case. Perhaps I should have aimed a bit higher in the tree, like a cruiser, but I think that destroyers leave plenty of room for expansion and can provide the necessary numbers for newbies to serve a purpose without having to learn for 6 months in advance.
Arin Fensfield Caldari NOVA Innovations Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.27 01:54:00 - [12] All I can say here is I like this. Especially for Amarr. Something about their ships lends itself to one with a dirty great gun barrel at the front. /sign
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2008.01.27 02:15:00 - [13] I do not mind this at all but it should be Battleship Size. That would give the BS what it DESPERATELY needs, major Umph. It would be slow and hard to target to anything fast, but once you aligned that fat rear you would blow away whatever you were pointed at. The Abbadon looks perfect for supporting one of these. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
CEO CatzRule	Posted - 2008.01.27 02:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Raxxius Maelstrom I kinda like the idea of artillery cruisers, being similar to that of the ion frigates in Homeworld. Basically as you suggest a gun that requires a tonne of cap (say 75%) on a cruiser sized ship. It would be the equiv of a glass cannon, very fragile, but packing a lot of damage. It would be good to give newer players a role in POS attacks, not removing the need for capships but giving counters. I like it :) /signed I like it, but should limit it to 1 turret on a cruiser and above and 2 on cap ships
hammyhamm GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.27 03:05:00 - [15] a small ship with the armaments of a big ship? Its called a stealth bomber. Newer players help with POS shootings by being part of the support fleet.
Sandra Jones	Posted - 2008.01.27 11:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Gekigami would effectively serve as a sort of "Capital/POS Killer," receiving bonuses to defense which will allow it to withstand enemy capital damage long enough to fire. The main gun could still be applied to destroying lesser targets such as battleships and below, however the requirement that the weapon be aligned to the target would be difficult to achieve with small, swift targets; meaning that only an idiot would let himself get hit by an MG round if he's smaller than a freighter. Naturally, webefiers provide some additional balancing to hitting smaller targets like battleships. I most certainly have more considerations to work out, but I believe that having such a vessel would significantly deepen the strategies in EVE. gratulations you just described a dreadnought - just that thatone is a bit larger.
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:00:00 - [17] Which size do you think would suit a Main Gun? I said destroyer because there are already enough cruisers and because battleships would inevitably call for "unfair" amounts of damage. I could see Battlecruisers as a happy medium but then there could be whining if the ships were "too heavy" in terms of defense (also same argument for battleships). Empirically, the fact that such ships don't exist yet is cause to state we don't know what the actual results will be. As to my having described a dreadnought, I feel more like I have described the result of ripping a cannon off a dreadnought and slapping a ship onto it. Maybe the dynamic should be that with 5-10 Main Guns you could equal the fire of a Dreadnought. Back to the original intent, What size would you like your cannon?
Arin Fensfield Caldari NOVA Innovations Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:08:00 - [18] Honestly, I'd ask it be between destroyer and cruiser.. destroyers are too maneuverable for a ship with most of their power loitering in a gun's systems - well unless the moment you activate your cannon module, it shunts all power that way and cripples maneuvering stats. But what's wrong with a ship like this being in a class of its own between cruiser and destroyer? It's just a label, frankly, and the flying gun generally IS its own class outside the Homeworld series. As for describing a dreadnaught.. well, yeah. Except dreadnoughts need huge amounts of skill dedication and happen to be about twenty times the size of a destroyer. A ship like the one described here could never match a dreadnought's firepower or armour, but it does have the advantage of maneuvering and adaptability. Dreadnaught - POS killer. You can't do horribly much else with them. Artillery Ship - Battlefield artillery. Something EVE actually lacks. The ability to launch bombardments on enemy fleets prior to engagement. And, yes, a stealth bomber might be able to do this... once every half hour or so. Artillery on the other hand can set up a continuous bombardment with enough ships, but have the trade-off of EXTREME vulnerability. Bombers on the other hand nip in, drop, and run, all the time using a cloak for safety - not entirely safe but significantly safer than what happens to an artillery piece that gets surrounded.
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.27 15:18:00 - [19] I like your thinking, scattered across my prior post I have stated most of that. As an alternative to creating a new class of ship, the Main Gun could instead be a sort of mounted weapon. You could, say, take a Dominix and put two main guns on it. These would appear as large cannons mounted on the sides and would take up, say, three high slots each. CCP would have to design the external mounts but they wouldn't have to build a new ship from scratch. As a diversification for the Main Gun Ship, perhaps there could be a dual-barrel version that has a better rate of fire but less damage and range and a single barrel that does more damage at farther ranges. "Shotgun" type rounds could also be made for area of effect damage.
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.27 17:20:00 - [20] As another thought, what do you think some good names (Race wise) would be for Main Gun class ships? I think: Imperator for Gallente. Longinus for Amarr. Thunderhead for Minmatar (Fits their battlecruiser naming scheme) Peregrine for the Caldari. At this point I am thinking more along the lines of a Battlecruiser class vessel, with about a four-month window of mastery so that flyers aren't too new for the class of vessel. tinkertinker
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.01.27 20:37:00 - [21] Edited by: Gekigami on 27/01/2008 20:38:04 Here's another set: Hoplite (Gallente)The newest lance in the Gallente arsenal. Dragon (Caldari)The mighty firespitter to crush our foes. Calaedbolg (Minmatar)A powerful sword to strike down the mightiest opponent. Angel (Amarr)A mighty bringer of light to burn heretics from the void.
Nimue Myrlyn	Posted - 2008.01.27 22:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Arin Fensfield All I can say here is I like this. Especially for Amarr. Something about their ships lends itself to one with a dirty great gun barrel at the front. /sign /sign as well ^^
Nimue Myrlyn	Posted - 2008.01.28 02:04:00 - [23] I think battlecruiser size is perfect for the kindof ship you are describing. BTW where did Calaedbolg come from?
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:42:00 - [24] Anyone else have any thoughts?
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Tarron Sarek I guess "dorsal mount" is the word you're looking for. it's commonly called a spinal mount as the ship is literally built around the weapon. dorsal just means top mounted.
Nekopyat	Posted - 2008.02.03 03:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Tarron Sarek I guess "dorsal mount" is the word you're looking for. I was going to say 'spinal mount', but same basic idea ^_^ Originally by: hammyhamm a small ship with the armaments of a big ship? Its called a stealth bomber. Actually that is a good example. Something similar to the stealth bomber (maybe without the cloak) and destroyer class would make a good caldari version of this new class of ship. I'm not so hot on the 'alignment' aspect of this thread, but I think the idea of some specialized small ship that carry a small number of oversized race specific weapons would be really fun. I can think of countless games with more ship flexibly then EvE that you often ended up with SOMEONE finding a way to fit 1 or 2 capital class weapons on some tiny hull, and they really added something to the game. If nothing else they really screwed around with expectations. Though personally, I would rather see this as some kind of 'conversion rig'.. I mean, from an outside perspective... is that a Probe with a couple of light autocannons, or is it sneaking around a large howitzer in it's cargo hold? Taken a little further, such a conversion rig could introduce all sorts of nasty surprises like q-ships.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:00:00 - [27] Originally by: Nekopyat I can think of countless games with more ship flexibly then EvE that you often ended up with SOMEONE finding a way to fit 1 or 2 capital class weapons on some tiny hull, and they really added something to the game. If nothing else they really screwed around with expectations. Actually, it's possible (albeit a rather poor idea) to fit 1 oversized gun or launcher to most classes of ship. Just fill the lows with RCUs. You can even fit a single Capital Autocannon to an Abaddon. What the OP is suggesting is more along the lines of a 3500mm Arty fitted to a Battlecruiser. Point at the nearby Dreadnought and let her rip. Fly 20km backwards from recoil. Enjoy. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Gekigami	Posted - 2008.02.11 01:44:00 - [28] That would be fun, firing a shot puts your ship out of engine control for 10 seconds while you fly backwards. That talk about the stealth bomber performing the same role is true only in the sense of doing damage but my point is to do the same damage with a different method. Like the difference between a grenade and an artillery shell. Call it a long range stealth bomber if you like but as a POS/Capital killer it makes sense. The alignment aspect of the "spinal mount" is just so that the ship isn't considered too good since I hope that it will be a weapon for semi-new/new players. What I like about the weapon is that it will help dispell the whole "swarm 'em" mentality of close-ranged engagements (knife fighting) by forcing tactics to literally expand. Players will be able to hold gates at range and gate crashers will have to develop ways to break artillery. I can foresee that stealth tactics to infiltrate and neutralize Main Guns could be widely used, making the stealth bomber and interceptor a natural counter to Main Guns just as Main Guns are counters to larger ships. Small ships can break through blockades to engage the artillery and their guards while larger ships are left to duke it out. Whoever wins either battle can then support the other or flee. It's true that most of the advantage will go to the defender of a gate or the attacker of a POS but the right kind of force applied in the right way has always been able to counter ANY advantage. Artillery just expands the ways in which people will have to think about the game. It would be fun though if you could destroy asteroids with artillery salvos. ****ing off Miners 101 would probably get its own curriculum. And yes, I think the Caladari version of a flying cannon would look badass. Imagine something like the Pillar of Autumn or In Amber Clad with a big ass cannon. Though frankly I imagine something more like the Daedalus from Stargate.
Xindi Kraid Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.11 04:23:00 - [29] Ya know I had the same idea. After seing the port wing of the Cormorant I though "wouldn't it be cool if you could replace that with a cannon" +1 for the idea if its a tech 2 ship. POS sieging on a budget. --Bird of Prey: Forum God 1. War 2. 3. Profit
Reggie Stoneloader Teikoku Trade Conglomerate Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2008.02.11 08:00:00 - [30] I think I'd rather see this sort of thing as a deployable. Takes time to anchor, you load the shots manually, one at a time, it takes a hauler to carry it. Like artillery pieces, you have your blockade running bring them up, deploy them and jettison a crate of ammo, and then you anchor the gun, charge it, and ka-boom. Repeat as necessary. Crusades: Security Status

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