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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.29 14:49:00 -
[1]
Simply put, the Brutix outclasses the Ferox in every way (more guns that hit harder, faster, and more drones).
You have some choices:
1) Stick with the ferox and the huge disappointment that it is, till you can fly a Rokh effectively. Solo is not an option - with your gang you could be a support ship (tank, or ewar, or even logistics - or limited damage at long range with rails).
2) Train up the Gallente Brutix.
I don't even fly Caldari medium hybrid snipers because of their disappointing performance for me (Harpy or Rokh however are well designed snipers).
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.29 18:46:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 29/01/2008 18:47:00
 Originally by: Ishina Fel
Sniping implies breaking 100km range.
A Brutix will indeed outperform a Ferox in just about every conceivable setup (maybe apart from missile fittign ability  ), and will make a devastating midrange fighter with rails, but a sniper it is not.
I thought about it - and you have a point. Sure a Brutix with 7 guns and a damage bonus sounds better than the Ferox with 5 non damage bonused guns - however I did not think about the advantages of range and ammo.
Max optimal range of a Brutix is in the neighborhood of 80-90 km with spike - go another 20-30 km and it DPS drops to 0.
The Ferox on the other hand hits out to about 130 km + 20-30 falloff - so you get 40 extra km in distance. That's significant advantage even if your damage output is low and with fewer guns.
I made comparisons with both ships setup to snipe AND tank (3x tracking computers each, and a medium armor/shield rep with cap injector).
Interestingly enough - from 100km to 40 km the damage output from both ships is comparable (fluctutaing abit, the Ferox having the advantage of firing harder hitting ammo at equal ranges of the Brutix - ie using lead while the brutix has to use tungsten).
At 40 km the Ferox with standard missile launchers (grid issue here) and antimatter does as much damage as a Brutix with Uranium ammo. Drones become an issue as the Brutix can use 5 hammerheads while the Ferox is using 5 hobgoblins.
Within 40 km, as the Brutix can switch to Antimatter, the tide turns and the Brutix comes out on top.
They're actually surprisingly balanced as snipers. Compare the following similarly tanked sniper BC.
Ferox:
Lows:
Damage Control II
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Mids:
3 x Tracking Computer II
Medium Shield Booster II
Medium Cap Injector with 400 cap charges
Highs:
5 x 250mm Railgun II
2 x Standard Missile Launcher II
Drones:
5 x Hobgoblin II
***VS***
Brutix:
Lows:
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
2 x Reactor Control II
Mids:
3x tracking Computer II
Medium Cap Injector with 400's
Highs:
7 x 250 mm Railgun II
Drones:
5 x Hobgoblin II
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.29 20:36:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: Ishina Fel
Sniping implies breaking 100km range.
3 range mod brutix w/ 250s + spike hits to 91+15. As good as 100km. However, it also deals several times the dps of the ferox.
Did you try the setups I mentioned above? Its really not that bad. A brutix to fit a tank and get range with 250 rails will have to use fitting mods - fittings mods that use up damage mod space. The Ferox can use more mag stabs and closes the gap nicely at 91km.
Also 91+15 does NOT equal 100km - at 100 km you're going to be missing roughly 20% - or 20% less DPS.
You can snipe with a Ferox up to 140 km - you can not do that with a Brutix. Infact you wont see a significant edge for the Brutix until you get within 40km.
The caveat is you are using tech 2 gear.
A Ferox is far more unforgiving of a tech 1 rail user than a Brutix is - simply because of the edge of spike ammo. Spike allows the Ferox to outrange by 40 km. The Brutix to hit 91 km is using spike - the Ferox can use Iridium ammo. Yes the Brutix is out damaging the Ferox for a bit here (50 dps), but that number will change as the ranges change (try 91km-40km in 10 km increments - you will be surprised). Remember your drones won't be in the equation at 91km (neither are teh Ferox's missiles or drones).
A T1 fit Ferox is a terrible ship (might be the worst in game) - because you are limited to tech 1 ammo. Spend time and some isk with tech 2 guns and the Ferox starts to shine.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.29 21:22:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 29/01/2008 21:25:31
Edited by: Omarvelous on 29/01/2008 21:22:56
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: Omarvelous
A brutix to fit a tank and get range with 250 rails will have to use fitting mods - fittings mods that use up damage mod space. The Ferox can use more mag stabs and closes the gap nicely at 91km.
PG implant or PG rig allows for easy fit of the brutix. The ferox lacks the slots to tank and snipe, just as the brutix does. Due to its resist bonus though , this is the only area it is superior to the brutix as an anti-support ship.
Quote:
Also 91+15 does NOT equal 100km - at 100 km you're going to be missing roughly 20% - or 20% less DPS.
And you'll still be doing more than the ferox at 100km. There's a full 90dps difference, even when the ferox is utilising CN iridium.
Quote:
You can snipe with a Ferox up to 140 km - you can not do that with a Brutix. Infact you wont see a significant edge for the Brutix until you get within 40km.
Correct, you can snipe to 140km, but you'll be doing 134dps and 499 volley. So the question should really be do you want to snipe from 140km? Also, bear in mind the ferox, to lock and shoot to 140km cannot fit a real fit. You'll be using all your mids and lows for SBs and range/tracking mods. No room for an MWD.
As for the significant difference... Under 60km, the ferox is useless. Too heavy and slow, and the drone DPS + ACTUAL damage bonus (rather than virtual damage bonus in the form of range bonus) from the brutix means the brutix massively outclasses it. Even past 60km, there is no way a brutix with a comparable fit will be outdamaged by the ferox until you're way beyond 120km. The ferox just does so little damage.
If you're going to use a PG implant on your Brutix - do the same for the Ferox and fit a larger shield booster.
I agree at 91km-100km the Brutix with Spike does more than the Ferox with Iridium. Drop the ranges to 40km in 10 km incerments (start switching to higher damage ammo). Keep both ships firing at equal ranges - realizing the range bonus allows the Ferox 1-2 steps better damaging ammo than the brutix. Its pretty close.
140km yes you will need remote sensor boosting - or throw away your tank (not much of one in my setup anyways) and use your own sensor boosters to lock that far. 134 dps is still 134 dps - sure big ships can ignore it, but interceptors trying to close on you or ECM ships can't.
Believe me - I'm not a big fan of the Ferox - but its actually not as terrible in its role as a sniper with tech 2 weapons.
Would I love more turrets and less missile slots on this ship? Hell yes. That would boost this ship's damage in the 100km to 40km range significantly. Even still with 5 turrets with better ammo it can compete at medium/far ranges.
When the Brutix can finally switch to antimatter (under 30km), and use its larger drones is where it will completely dominate the Ferox. This is where a lot of small scale pvp occurs, hence people's dissapointment in the Ferox.
Also the Ferox is usually a Cadari pilot's first BC before they get a Drake. Their skills are usually limited, the Ferox is a far more skill intensive ship to fly as a sniper than a heavy missile spamming passive Drake. Hence the great disappointment in its damage output with tech 1 guns and tech 1 ammo (whereas the Brutix with tech 1 gear is still respectable).
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.30 14:55:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 30/01/2008 14:59:43
Ivor - lets take a sniper Ferox vs a sniper Brutix, 3% hybrid damage implants, no rigs - but maxxed out skills for comparison.
Both ships will be used for rails, 3 range mods, a sensor booster and 1 rep tank.
Ferox:
Lows:
Damage Control II
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Mids:
3x Tracking Computers II with range scripts
Sensor Booster II with Range Script II
Medium Shield Booster II
Highs:
5x 250 Railgun II
2x Assault Missile Launcher II
Drones:
5x Hobgoblin II
Max targeting Range 120km, Max Firing Range 137km + 15 falloff.
Essentially you can start firing at 120 km.
33k effective hitpoints.
______________________________________________________________
Rail Brutix:
Lows:
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Reactor Control II (7 rails and MAR require fitting mods)
Mids:
3x Tracking Computer II with range scripts
Sensor Booster II with range scripts
Highs:
7x 250 Railgun II
Drones:
5x Hammerhead II
Max targeting range = 110 km, max firing range 91km + 15 km falloff.
Essentially you can start firing at 110km with practically 0 DPS, 106km is 50% DPS, 91km is 100% max range DPS.
Effective hitpoints also is 33k.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.30 14:56:00 -
[6]
reserved
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.30 16:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Trevor Warps
Originally by: Omarvelous
Ferox vs Brutix comparison
IMO for that kind of comparison, the Brutix lows should have looked like 3x MFS 1X SAR II 1x PDS II
Unequal tank.
If you gimp the Brutix's tank with a small armor rep (probably better off with a buffer or resist vs a small rep on a battlecruiser). Then throw away the Ferox's tank and fit a tracking disruptor that would ruin the rail Brutix's day (range script forcing the Brutix to use long range ammo the whole way in).
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.30 17:03:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Originally by: Jennae
Ivor Gunn:
Does that graph take into account the ammo difference? The Ferox should be able to use better suited (ie more damaging) ammo out to a farther range that should close that gap. Maybe not significantly, but closer.
Yes. That's why the graph is bumpy. Each drop/level is an ammo switch.
@ Omarvelous.
Aside from the fact neither of those fits are viable (no mwd on either), they're not comparable. Of course one is going to do more DPS when it has 3 damage mods compared to the latter's 1. You might want to learn the definition of "tank" in a sniper, too. (Hint: It doesnt involve reps)
Condescending attitude aside - fit a plate/extender - you will need fitting mods to use 7 250 rail II's on a Brutix - otherwise ofcourse I would have added more magnetic field stabilizers.
Or ignore the tank and focus on range and damage - the Ferox could use that shield boost slot for a tracking disruptor - the Brutix could not without giving up more range.
Where are the missiles on the graph? The Ferox does not linearly scale its damage - no missiles or drones at long range - the Brutix will stick to spike until it can switch to Thorium.
Take an objective look at what I'm saying. I'm not saying the Ferox is better - I'm saying its not complete crap compared to the Brutix - there are ranges where it is superior.
MWD - on a sniper BC? Meh, I'd keep that mid slot for sniping and letting my ammo dictate cmobat range - if the target hasnt popped by the time it gets close to you - going 1000 m/s with a terrible acceleration wont get you anywhere.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.30 18:22:00 -
[9]
Well if you have to use MWD (I'm assuming to deal with bubbles - I'm thinking of more of a low sec fight), and you're fitting purely sniper and no tank, then the Ferox will not compete with the Brutix.
How the sniper ship can tank enough to escape the bubble while slowly accelerating to 1000 m/s is beyond me. I'm not going to argue about 0.0 bubble tactics because my experience in that is minimal. I do most of my fighting in low sec. I don't think speed is king for a tankless sniper when most other ships in the fight can still go faster than you.
Its true you have to use 2 sensor boosters to reach the 140 km spike range with the Ferox doing 167 dps. Sure that's worthless dps on large ships, but against support or interceptors it cannot be ignored.
Why is it lunacy to drop your range from 147 to 120 with 1 sensor booster and then fit a tracking disruptor II with a range script in the last mid slot? You would kill the Brutix's range to the point that it would have to use spike ammo a lot more often, while the Ferox could use antimatter and missiles - albeit not for long once it gets to within 30km the Brutix would take over.
I'll take your requirements for a MWD and range into consideration and come up with another comparison.
I'm not trying to say the Ferox is better - it really needs some attention from CCP - if they made it in line with the Rokh (all guns range and tank bonus) it would be an awesome ship.
You've got me thinking though. 
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.01.30 18:55:00 -
[10]
OK going for the 10MN MWD max range and damage combo:
Brutix:
Lows:
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Reactor Control II
Power Diagnostic II
*** If you use an implant or a rig to remove a fitting mod - thats fine, a fourth mag stab II wont add much damage - or you could add some kind of a 1 slot tank. That same ammount of isk could be spent on the ferox for a better tank to tank your extra damage, or shoot farther or harder, etc. Really hard to compare here so Ive left them out for argument's sake.
Mids:
10 MN MWD II
2x Tracking Computer II
1x Sensor Booster II
*** As said above - use an implant or rig and fit a tracking enhancer in low slot, can be done, otherwise your effective max range is 85km. Make sure to give the Ferox pilot the same isk in rig or implant as well...
Highs:
7x 250mm Rail II
_________________________________
Ferox:
Lows:
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
reactor Control Unit II
Mids:
10MN MWD II
2x Tracking Computer II
Sensor Booster II
*** Tracking Disruptor II - if you hate this idea use an invulnerability - this mod forces the Brutix to fire Spike instead of lead or better T1 much longer.
Highs:
5x 250mm Rail II
2x Heavy Missile Launcher II <--Won't come into play until 85km, sure the target may warp off/be dead/too fast, so treat this here as you wish.
Tracking Disruptor would drop the Brutix's range to 50km max, well within the Ferox's heavy Missile Range. Beyond 70km the Brutix would be doing just about 0 dps. Brutix disrupted to 50km with spike is 290 dps, Ferox with Uranium and Heavy missiles is 290 dps...
Meh - It's impossible to account for every contingency when comparing 2 ships. I'm pretty much done with the argument. I was trying to make a point the Ferox isn't as terrible as a sniper as most people would suggest - especially if you use tech 2 weapons.
The Ferox doesnt do much damage, but it can hit far away. If the opposing fleet has an ECM boat, interceptor 100+km away, The Ferox would be the better ship for the job vs a Brutix.
If you have to have a MWD - you really narrow the options for sniping for a Brutix with 3 remaining mid slots. The Ferox pilot could with the spare 4th slot, use EWAR to gain a tactical advantage for your fleet vs enemy snipers.
In the end - you could train for 6 weeks and just fly an eagle and snipe with medium hybrids at far superior ranges.
The Ferox needs some work to excel - for now it does its job semi-decently. Saying its utter crap helps keep the price of them down. 
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