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Koshmarnaya Akula
Ebon Seraph
Order of the Black Cross
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Posted - 2008.02.08 02:04:00 -
[61]
Now what it sounds like we have here is a Sooplex problem. Really common these days with all of the outsourcing thats done.
All we have to do to fix that is just caulk it right up. Its a quick fix and its saved countless projects tons of money and time on their investments.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.02.08 02:22:00 -
[62]
This is like arguing with a wall of titanium diborite. Even the Fraction strongly disagrees with you.
The Nation is not honest with itself because it perpetuates a routine propaganda scheme with emphasis on utopia and forced transhumanity when virtually the entire cluster is clearly of the opinion that Sansha's twisted ideas were insane and macabre, including transhumanists, anarchists, and criminals of most every variety. It will only win the hearts of the most deranged capsuleer. It will only win minds by force.
In contrast, the Angels, and for the sake of argument, the Guristas cartels, are both quite aware of what they're up to, and know full well that survival and sometimes political instincts play key roles. We don't pretty ourselves up with rhetoric like yours. We know we all do terrible things and return we expect the animosity we're shown. We know that we are bad but that you are worse. At least, I hope that the Guristas start seeing that more clearly. 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' doesn't play out well in every diplomatic situation. The Nation will end up eating the Guristas just like everyone else.
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Darina Rea
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.02.08 02:54:00 -
[63]
Walls are there to blow holes in.
The ideal of utopia and that Sansha's Nation is trying to accomplish that is about known by everyone. The term of 'forced transhumanity' you can drop before taking it in your mouth, that's not anywhere in the Nations Dream. That concept belongs to the afore mentioned Fraction. Try at least not to confuse the different faction in your ranting if you please.
The Nation is viewed as 'worse' out of fear, although secrecy and ignorance do play a good part as well. And it will take some time to take that fear away. It's nice that we've scared the pants of the almighty Angel Cartel atleast.
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Time is on our side. |
Gaven Lok'ri
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.02.08 04:18:00 -
[64]
 Quote:
Even the Fraction strongly disagrees with you.
To be fair, they strongly disagree with pretty much everyone.
Deus Vult!
PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public' |
Koshmarnaya Akula
Ebon Seraph
Order of the Black Cross
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Posted - 2008.02.08 05:24:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
Quote:
Even the Fraction strongly disagrees with you.
To be fair, they strongly disagree with pretty much everyone.
Quite possibly, I have never laughed so hard reading a comment. Oh lord... that was one of the best comments I've read in ages.
You good sir are a artist.. a true, 100% man of genius.
I'm being sincere too.
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DeadRow
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.02.08 12:59:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Kyoko Sakoda
The Nation is not honest with itself because it perpetuates a routine propaganda scheme with emphasis on utopia and forced transhumanity when virtually the entire cluster is clearly of the opinion that Sansha's twisted ideas were insane and macabre, including transhumanists, anarchists, and criminals of most every variety. It will only win the hearts of the most deranged capsuleer. It will only win minds by force.
Opninion doesn't equal reality. What people don't realise is that the Trues are not the only part of the Nation. And that his orginal idea is something we all should try to accomplish.
Quote:
In contrast, the Angels, and for the sake of argument, the Guristas cartels, are both quite aware of what they're up to, and know full well that survival and sometimes political instincts play key roles. We don't pretty ourselves up with rhetoric like yours. We know we all do terrible things and return we expect the animosity we're shown. We know that we are bad but that you are worse. At least, I hope that the Guristas start seeing that more clearly. 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' doesn't play out well in every diplomatic situation. The Nation will end up eating the Guristas just like everyone else.
I won't deny any of the terrible things I have, or the Nation, might have done. But as unfortunate as it is, the many outwiegh the few, sacrifices need to be made and there will be choas before the harmony that will follow. The terrible things you and your cartel does is purely out of profit.
Quote:
Iz in ur base, implanting ur dudes
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.02.08 13:31:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Heartstone on 08/02/2008 13:31:42
I dunno go away for a couple of Days R+R planetside and see what happens. *sheesh*
Originally by: Darina Rea
The term of 'forced transhumanity' you can drop before taking it in your mouth, that's not anywhere in the Nations Dream. That concept belongs to the afore mentioned Fraction. Try at least not to confuse the different faction in your ranting if you please.
I have no idea where you get the idea that the Star Fraction's goals include the repulsive idea of Forced Tranhumanism of anyone. I think even our most voal detractors will agree with me when I say this is do far from our ideals to make it laughable. Outside of the Nation I know of no-one who forces anyone to implant and equally nobody who supports it.
Quote:
To be fair, they strongly disagree with pretty much everyone.
Aww Gaven you love us really.
As a side point I would like to point out that almost all communications from the Star Fraction are unoffical and don't represent the Fraction in anyway. Having said that I can't imagine my friends disagree with me much on these points. The Fraction celebrates the individual and as such we speak for ourselves.
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Kostantin Mort
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.02.08 13:56:00 -
[68]
I think that the destruction of transhumanism will mostly come from Star Fraction rather than any other entity. If you wish to debate me on this issue, Mr. Heartstone, I would prefer a more direct, private discussion than one that involves the showmanship, PR and general idiocy of IGS.
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Innovation is a product of madness. |
Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.02.08 14:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kostantin Mort
I think that the destruction of transhumanism will mostly come from Star Fraction rather than any other entity. If you wish to debate me on this issue, Mr. Heartstone, I would prefer a more direct, private discussion than one that involves the showmanship, PR and general idiocy of IGS.
I will, of course, be only to happy to communicate with you Mr. Mort when I am able to re-establish a stable connection to my pod interfaces.
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MenanceWhite
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.02.08 16:17:00 -
[70]
You are a zombie. You eat braiiinns OM NOM NOM NOM. Besides you leave good salvage, although your logs are'nt as funny as the angel ones.
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Originally by: Torfi
There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses
Originally by: Oveur
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.02.08 17:08:00 -
[71]
Between the open market sale of Slaves and transcranial microcontrollers, the gilded cage of democracy, and the vast majority of people in the cluster being forced into work, lifestyles, and conformity by their governments, I find it hard to believe people find the idea of True Slaves so offensive.
I'm not saying any of these things are right or wrong. I do not consider myself final arbiter of morality for the countless nations and mindsets of the cluster. But I also don't see any of the empires, let alone the outlaw factions, being innocent or even less guilty than the Nation in this matter.
At least the Nation has a vision beyond greed, power, and hedonism. Not that these things don't drive the species forward but, as far as I can see, they are the only group that seems to have an idea of what direction that drive should take.
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Darina Rea
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.02.08 17:11:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Darina Rea on 08/02/2008 17:13:19
Edited by: Darina Rea on 08/02/2008 17:11:15
Originally by: MenanceWhite
You are a zombie. You eat braiiinns OM NOM NOM NOM. Besides you leave good salvage, although your logs are'nt as funny as the angel ones.
Now you defenatly could use some implants to sharpen that brain of yours. Mainly to get it out of the childs phase in life you haven't outgrown yet.
And mister Dealin, thank you for your kind words! It's always nice when a third party can see beyond the here and now.
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Time is on our side. |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.02.08 17:39:00 -
[73]
I'm simply tired of watching the empires flounder around blaming others for their own failings while claiming moral superiority over each other at every opportunity as if moral correctness were an absolute of any tangible value. All this as they lie to their own people and use ever more complex falsehoods as means of control.
It all comes down to one simple fact: Some people are better than others.
It's a harsh but it's recognized in deed if not word throughout known space. If it is to be the task of the general populace to support the chosen few they may as well be happy about it and they may as well do a good, organized job of it. Every person supporting the system gets to be part of something greater and each faction gathers a degree of direction, control, efficiency, and satisfaction from their populace in their own way. The Nation is no different. Every good Citizen is a cog in the machine, only a few get to be at the controls.
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.02.08 17:40:00 -
[74]
Originally by: DeadRow
The terrible things you and your cartel does is purely out of profit.
Better to make a living than to make grisly attempts at paradise.
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.02.08 18:12:00 -
[75]
Mr. Blackleaf I agree with you on some aspects of what you have said. Certainly none of the major recognised empires in the Core Hub of systems in New Eden have managed to figure out an way of including Transhumans in their society in what I would call a suitable manner. Their continued clinging to a heavily outmoded territorial system is somewhat pathetic to say the least when there are those of us now in existence who will see millennia come and go. I do not agree that this makes us better than our less fortunate brethren living in this universe. Certainly more capable and more evolved but better is one of those moral absolutes you seem to despise the empires for. Better implies too many things I am uncomfortable applying to ever Transhuman in the universe.
As far as the Nations attempts to create a better universe well I would applaud them for their vision if it wasn't for the means they use to bring it about and their insistence that their way is best. This makes them no better than the myriad of petty territorials there already is. Create your place in the universe for yourself by your own effort. By yourself or with others matters not as long as everyone has a free choice in whether to take a part in your utopia. A choice that the Nation seems not to want to give others.
Do not dictate my place in this life to me and we can be friends. Attempt to limit the vast range of choices Transhumanism offers me and we will only meet on the battlefield.
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Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.02.08 19:30:00 -
[76]
You'll find the great and the small amongst capsuleers, much as you'll find standard planet bound humans whose worth is greater than that of the typical "transhuman".
When I say some people are better than others I'm not referring to any one class of people. I refer to qualities that transcend the differences between "normal people" and capsuleers. Though I must say that despite our petty rivalries and lack of impact of late we can certainly count ourselves in the well above average bracket.
As for choice Heartstone, not everyone can be at the top of the pyramid. If everyone were given true freedom and choice and weren't shackled by the need for income, the pressures of society, or other means, my crewless ship wouldn't get beyond my unstaffed hangar. Freedom of choice is not given, by the Nation or the any other faction, it is not a "right", it is protected by no cluster-wide convention. Freedom of choice is for those with the power to make such choices. As with many things in life such freedom must be taken not given.
To your closing comment, it's a big universe, should we ever meet circumstance is more likely to dictate hostility than philosophy. I don't go shooting random capsuleers based on ideological differences, I have better things to do with my time and more than enough mindless aggressors to get though in the average week.
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.02.08 20:27:00 -
[77]
Your words I find have the ring of someone who has spent some time coming to his own conclusions about the Universe he lives in Mr. Blackleaf rather than one who has swallowed nationalistic propaganda so prevalent in this day and age. Indeed it is true that there are things in all of us that rises us above the level of base humanity. These qualities are certainly not limited to just the Transhuman population of New Eden. I believe in some respects Transhumans have the highest possible chance for these qualities to emerge as many of them are linked with understanding and our ability to outlive the planetbound populations of the Universe as well as our wider reaching experiences give us certain advantages in reaching this level of being. I do not pretend to be more enlightened than anyone else I just believe myself to have formed my own ideas about things rather than following blindly along like so many of us have until now.
Choice doesn't necessarily come with power however in my opinion. Power allows a greater freedom to make choices and makes those choices be wider ranging than the choices of the powerless. This doesn't mean that the choices of a Leader of a people is more significant or important than that of the individual. My crew makes a choice to join me. My maintenance staff choose to help me based on their own beliefs coinciding with my own. The choice to help or serve is still a choice and a valid one. It is the restriction of those choices which offend me to the core of my being as we see on a daily basis in all areas of this still woefully back looking Universe we live in.
My closing comment above was not aimed at you in particular but more generalised than that. From what you have said so far I believe you are not one to try and restrict people. The Nation is just another example of those whom seek to dominate in the belief that their way is the only correct path. It is that I rail against. What they are doesn't disgust me. Their dream of Utopia doesn't worry me. The problem comes with there fundamentalistic outlook. My continuing research into the True implantation, difficult though it is, is focused not on destroying the Nation as this would remove their choice in this life but rather to help prevent others from falling under their sway unwillingly. After all the choice to be a slave is as legitimate as the choice to be free.
Fly well Mr. Blackleaf
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Hooch Flux
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.09 01:31:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
You'll find the great and the small amongst capsuleers, much as you'll find standard planet bound humans whose worth is greater than that of the typical "transhuman".
OMG, I actually agree with you!
I say prep for dustoff, nuke the site from orbit...
Only way to be sure! |
Daelin Blackleaf
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Posted - 2008.02.09 02:51:00 -
[79]
Your staff choose to support you not because it is their optimal choice in a universe of possibility. The weak lack options and so may only ever select from a limited array of choices. A citizen must work to feed and clothe themselves. Work or die. Their lot is little different to that of a slave. Even the Trues have some personal leeway and a degree of freedom in how they perform their duties, after all isn't that the whole reason for the Nation using humans over machines.
It's all degrees of choice, those with more power have fewer limits. The Nation and the Empire have a wider gulf between those near the top and those near the bottom, while in the State and the Federation the gap is narrower due to the expectations one must live up to to retain their status. In my eyes a narrow gap starves the deserving and elevates the unworthy, but my opinion hardly sways empires.
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