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Torpedoes a little too strong?

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emf Amarr Knights Of the Black Sun Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:19:00 - [1] Edited by: emf on 31/01/2008 16:20:15 Edited by: emf on 31/01/2008 16:19:25 I must admit they were pretty weak for non-fleet PVP before, but a 25% boost to ROF is a 33% increase in damage. A little too much of a boost? Lets take for example a fight between a torpedo raven and a mega pulse abaddon since both pulse lasers and torpedoes have a long range which comes in handy in small gangs (compared to blasters and autocannons). For the sake of comparison bonuses from skills will not be counted but ship bonus will be but ship bonus will be counted at battleships V. I used an abaddon instead of an armageddon because drone DPS is more difficult to calculate, besides the armageddon needs almost max fitting skills to be able to outdamage an abaddon. Abaddon: 8x mega pulse laser II, 3.6 damage mod, 7.88 ROF. Amarr navy multifrequency L, 55.2 damage. 8 * 3.6 * 55.2 * 1.25 / 7.88 = 252.1 DPS Raven: 6x siege missile launcher II, 14.4 ROF. Caldari navy mjolnir torpedo 517 damage. 6 * 517 * 1.33 / 14.4 = 286.5 DPS Signiture radius modifiers: Abaddon = 286.5 DPS (Full damage) Megathron = 400/470 * 286.5 = 243.8 DPS Tempest = 340/470 * 286.5 = 207.3 DPS (formula taken from thread, there is no speed modifier because because we assume the ships have webbed each other and will not pass 220 m/s in speed) For the sake of comparison, I will include the megathron and tempest. (I use ions on the megathron instead of neutrons since it is very hard to fit neutrons on a megathron unless one has maxed out fitting skills) Megathron: 7x ion blaster cannon II, 3.375 damage mod, 6.75 ROF, federation navy antimatter L 55.2 damage. 7 * 3.375 * 55.2 * 1.25 / 6.75 = 241.5 DPS Tempest: 6x repeating artillery II, 3.234 damage mod, 7.88 ROF, domination EMP L, 52.8 damage 6 * 3.234 * 52.8 * 1.25 * 1.33 / 7.88 = 216.15 DPS From the above figures, torpedoes currently out DPS the abaddon using only 6 high slots. They even out damage a megathron with ion blasters! The rubbish about caldari not being able to PVP properly because the mid slots are needed to tank is nonsense, armor tanking ships have to fit weapon upgrades which compromise the tank as well. The main focus here is the raven vs the abaddon since both ships have a "long range" PVP weapon. The raven has a longer range, does 13.6% more damage, can use any damage type and only uses 6 slots, leaving 2 slots for neutralizers or other goodies. Also worth noting is the poor minmatar tempest, doing the worst DPS by far not to mention having a gimped 6 low slots. (Minmatar looks like it could use some loving) I have flown amarr ships for some time now and have raked up 63 battleship kills and 31 losses. About 30% of these kills are solo with the rest being in small gangs of 2 or 3 ships. Overall I've been quite happy with the performance of the Armageddon with the nice range of pulse lasers coming in handy in gang situations. Damage type also isn't much of a problem since most armor tanked ships use hardeners and not EANMs making EM the lowest resistance. With the boost however, now I don't even do well in that area now. Join Knights of the Black Sun today. Contact emf in game.
Arvald Caldari Devilish Intentinos	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:24:00 - [2] well considring that the main torpedo platform in the game, teh rave, is heavy, slow and has to sacrifices parts of its tank for a web, scram and sensor booster if it wants to fly alone, and is painfully slow even with an mwd no it id say no htey are not overpowerd they are just fine
Katashi Ishizuka	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:27:00 - [3] Can't just look at DPS numbers. Missiles suffer from delayed alpha. Torpedoes require target painting for max damage. Nobody fits a target painter. Abaddon has way more effective hit points than the Raven. Remote rep BS gangs never RR shields. MWDing battleships can sometimes outrun torps if you are shooting on the edge of your engagement range. When it all adds up, Abaddon is much, much, tougher and does full DPS to stuff that isn't battleship sized as long as it is webbed, which in a gang is very likely.
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:29:00 - [4] Couple questions: What is the cost difference between your one Amarr Navy Multi-Frequency L crystal, and the Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedoes? (Seriously, I really don't know). What did you fit in the mids and lows to get these figures? We can't actually estimate which is better without that. When we get that, then we can decide whether the shield or armor tank difference is "nonsense", as you say. Without that, we can't say. Finally, as you will get from many here, probably, EFT Warrior on the forums doesn't go over well. Actual experience in the post would be better. Try telling of situations where you lost your Abaddon to a Raven one on one, or something. Theoretical EFT often doesn't translate into actual EVE. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Caldari CoCo	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:31:00 - [5] No torps are not to strong, in actual fact the Raven needs a 125m3 Drone bay so that it can carry and deploy 5x Ogre IIs as well as its primary weapons system.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:32:00 - [6] Torps will never be too strong until Citadels have their full explosion graphics back. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
emf Amarr Knights Of the Black Sun Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:35:00 - [7] Originally by: Katashi I**uka Can't just look at DPS numbers. Missiles suffer from delayed alpha. Torpedoes require target painting for max damage. Nobody fits a target painter. Abaddon has way more effective hit points than the Raven. Remote rep BS gangs never RR shields. MWDing battleships can sometimes outrun torps if you are shooting on the edge of your engagement range. When it all adds up, Abaddon is much, much, tougher and does full DPS to stuff that isn't battleship sized as long as it is webbed, which in a gang is very likely. Delayed alpha is not a problem, we are not talking about fleet battleships here. Signiture radius is already taken into account in those calculations. What's stopping a bunch of shield tanked ships from doing it? With 2 extra high slots it would be strong as hell. In this situation the raven has already lost since it has no means of keeping the target warp scrambled. True, the abaddon would probably do better against battlecruisers, but only marginally. Once again fitting a warp scrambler, web and cap booster is equivalent of fitting 2 weapon upgrades and a damage control for an armor tanked ship. The raven can still fit 3 weapon upgrades and a damage control. Join Knights of the Black Sun today. Contact emf in game.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Angel DeMorphis Couple questions: What is the cost difference between your one Amarr Navy Multi-Frequency L crystal, and the Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedoes? (Seriously, I really don't know). What did you fit in the mids and lows to get these figures? We can't actually estimate which is better without that. When we get that, then we can decide whether the shield or armor tank difference is "nonsense", as you say. Without that, we can't say. Finally, as you will get from many here, probably, EFT Warrior on the forums doesn't go over well. Actual experience in the post would be better. Try telling of situations where you lost your Abaddon to a Raven one on one, or something. Theoretical EFT often doesn't translate into actual EVE. There is nothing with EFT numbers per see. The problem only starts when people use numbers from EFT without knowing what those numbers will actually do in in-game combat, and when they use numbers from a character with maxed out skills (and sometimes unrealistic fittings, like tech 2 rigs on tech 1 ships or whatever, on top of that) and present it as if it was numbers from an average ship of that class that you'd be likely to run into regularly on tranquility.
Harall	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:48:00 - [9] Edited by: Harall on 31/01/2008 16:48:26 True, which is why I used ions instead of neutrons on a megathron. My friend has AWU IV and can barely fit 7 neutrons on a megathron. The rest don't take into account skills except battleships V, for the sake of comparison it is best to leave as much as possible the same between all 4 ships. (emf here, why does it default to this alt )
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.01.31 16:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Reem Fairchild There is nothing with EFT numbers per see. The problem only starts when people use numbers from EFT without knowing what those numbers will actually do in in-game combat, and when they use numbers from a character with maxed out skills (and sometimes unrealistic fittings, like tech 2 rigs on tech 1 ships or whatever, on top of that) and present it as if it was numbers from an average ship of that class that you'd be likely to run into regularly on tranquility. Agreed, which is why I was asking him to point out if he had any actual experience with it or not. I don't, I just wanted to know if he did. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.01.31 17:07:00 - [11] fitting 6 torp launchers on a Raven, let alone T2 ones, kinda uses up all the CPU... for ratting I can barely fit 4 torps and 2 cruise without gimping my active tank. i am curious to see what kind of setup would have 6 T2 siege launchers and ... anything else? ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.31 17:11:00 - [12] I don't care to scrutizing the EFT numbers and see if a Raven actually slightly outdamages an abaddon/megathron at close range on a single ship with sufficiently large radius, but even if it does, I must say I'm completely ok with that. Raven is the only ship that is set up to heavily use torpedos in PvP, and lord knows people need every incentive we can give them to bring shield tanking caldari ships along to pvp instead of just flying armor tanking megathrons or armageddons like every other pilot. If you start seeing the ubiquitous hordes of megas and armageddons being replaced by torpedo ravens in fleet battles, then you might have a point that a raven torpedo is 'too strong'. However, I don't think you're going to see this happen, for a variety of reasons.
Ademaro Imre Caldari	Posted - 2008.01.31 17:27:00 - [13] Originally by: emf Edited by: emf on 31/01/2008 16:20:15 Edited by: emf on 31/01/2008 16:19:25 I must admit they were pretty weak for non-fleet PVP before, but a 25% boost to ROF is a 33% increase in damage. A little too much of a boost? Just link your kill mail so we can see what killed you. The aim of politics is to keep the populace alarmed and clamorous to be saved by menacing it with imaginary hobgoblins. The urge to save humanity is a false front for the urge to rule it.
Gorau Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 17:44:00 - [14] Originally by: Alora Venoda fitting 6 torp launchers on a Raven, let alone T2 ones, kinda uses up all the CPU... for ratting I can barely fit 4 torps and 2 cruise without gimping my active tank. i am curious to see what kind of setup would have 6 T2 siege launchers and ... anything else? Setup for a t2 ratting raven: 6x Siege launcher II's 1x best named TP 3x T2 hardeners 1x extender 1x T2 LSB 3x BCU II 1x Co-proc 1x PDU 3x Missile rigs It fits on my raven with 940/948 cpu
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.01.31 17:45:00 - [15] Torps are certainly powerful. However, the torp Raven is hard-to-fit, tends to have a dodgy tank and is rather one-dimensional. Fitting an active tank and a MWD on a T2 Siege Raven is horrible - a crappy buffer tank is often preferred. Tackle and a Painter makes this worse. Also, torps are slow and have a huuge explosion radius, meaning that anything small and fast (HACs) will handle a torp Raven rather better than they would, say, a Mega. This means that the torp-Raven is a one-dimensional ship. It's certainly powerful in its role of gang anti-BS platform, but against other targets, or in other situations, it is rather poor. It certainly doesn't have the versatility of other BS such as Domi, Mega, Maelstrom etc - but makes up for this lack of versatility by being effective in its limited role. That seems fairly well balanced to me.
emf Amarr Knights Of the Black Sun Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:45:00 - [16] Edited by: emf on 31/01/2008 18:46:38 I made a big mistake not including skills, with guided missile precision at lvl 4, the explosion radius becomes 376 which means full damage on all battleships up there except for the tempest. Granted, the tank would be slightly weaker and it would perform poorly against smaller ships but it would make up for it in the ease of fitting 3 weapon upgrades and doing massive damage. I'm not saying its terribly overpowered or anything, they did need a buff, but 33% damage just seems a tad bit too high. Also it may be an amarr issue as the main problem here is that I am facing an identity crisis. Being the only battleship able to shoot for full damage at 13 km sort of made of for the poorer damage of lasers and the occasional EANM tanked ship and kept me happy. Now that the raven can do better at over 20km I feel tempted to succumb to all the rubbishy "amarr sucks" threads. Join Knights of the Black Sun today. Contact emf in game.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:53:00 - [17] "with guided missile precision at lvl 4, the explosion radius becomes 376" Wanna bet? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Alora Venoda fitting 6 torp launchers on a Raven, let alone T2 ones, kinda uses up all the CPU... for ratting I can barely fit 4 torps and 2 cruise without gimping my active tank. i am curious to see what kind of setup would have 6 T2 siege launchers and ... anything else? Arbalest Seige Launchers are ~1M each now, and they're a joy to fit. Don't use T2 launchers unless you intend to use T2 ammo. You can have a Raven with 6 Seige and 2 heavy neuts if you use best-named instead of T2. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
emf Amarr Knights Of the Black Sun Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:56:00 - [19] Edited by: emf on 31/01/2008 18:56:16 Oops, I mean 360. Wonder how I messed that one up >< Yes, and I normally would use arbalests, just that I was too lazy to type all those names... Join Knights of the Black Sun today. Contact emf in game.
Johnny Darkseid Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.01.31 18:59:00 - [20] lol. First people complained bitterly that torps were nerfed and omg wtf was ccp thinking. Now the same torps are overpowered. You guys need to make up your minds.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:03:00 - [21] Originally by: Johnny Darkseid lol. First people complained bitterly that torps were nerfed and omg wtf was ccp thinking. Now the same torps are overpowered. You guys need to make up your minds. No the mission runners said they were nerfed, some pvpers say they may be overpowered
General StarScream Borg Collective hive mind	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:10:00 - [22] ye they tottaly overpowerd, same with sheild tanks, but ccp dont give a hoot about making it fair, they just want people to whine about stuff, first caldri, ohh look they crying, lets boost em and see if we can get anyone else to cry. Ahahaa look at the amarrs they still crying Lolz Zulupark your bad ass man, Ye i know im just in it for the lulz. now lets boost amarr and Minmatar, and see what happens with the gallente pilots, after all we nerfed there drones, when we said it was a boost, then took care of there ships with a other drone boost, and then we skrewd em over with changing the rules on how drones heal. Hahahaha the should be spamming the fourm in no time Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Gorau Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:23:00 - [23] Two things. One: If you can use T2 launchers, and fit them, ALWAYS use them. Yes arbalest launchers have the same rate of fire, but assuming you can use t2 launchers, you should have taken the spec skill to at least 3, most likely 4 (ohgod please say you did this) meaning that you get a decent damage bonus on t1 or t2 ammo, over top of what an arbalest launcher can produce. Two: guided missile precision does NOT affect torpedoes, it affects light missiles, heavy missiles, and cruise missiles, nothing else. Read the skill description again. So, there is absolutly no way to reduce the signiture radius of a torp, you must increase your targests if you want the full effect.
Oku Kee'lus	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:26:00 - [24] Could be so kind as to post the rest of the 2 BS setups? We have 1 midslot out of the way, for the web you assume both ships have. Now we just need tank and utility, then we can start to discuss things. Else, this is just rubbish.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:41:00 - [25] Quote: Torps are certainly powerful. However, the torp Raven is hard-to-fit, tends to have a dodgy tank and is rather one-dimensional. Fitting an active tank and a MWD on a T2 Siege Raven is horrible - a crappy buffer tank is often preferred. Tackle and a Painter makes this worse. Also, torps are slow and have a huuge explosion radius, meaning that anything small and fast (HACs) will handle a torp Raven rather better than they would, say, a Mega. This means that the torp-Raven is a one-dimensional ship. It's certainly powerful in its role of gang anti-BS platform, but against other targets, or in other situations, it is rather poor. It certainly doesn't have the versatility of other BS such as Domi, Mega, Maelstrom etc - but makes up for this lack of versatility by being effective in its limited role. That seems fairly well balanced to me. This excellent post deserves to be repeated.
Maraude Fury Minmatar Shadow Of The Light Scorched Earth Directive	Posted - 2008.01.31 19:57:00 - [26] This is very easily tested. The OP can take a Raven fitted as he describes, and go to the test server. Find an abbaddon pilot with similar skills, and fit as ti would be fit, and let them warp to each other at 10 km. And start fighting.. Good luck.. Dictator: Scorched Earth Directive Alliance Dictator: Shadow Of The Light Corp
Gorau Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.31 20:21:00 - [27] Edited by: Gorau on 31/01/2008 20:21:25 or, you know, actually try and use one in real pvp. 1v1's (god i hate those) do not reflect pvp ability. A ships pvp ability is a combination of its ability to do three things. Hunt down and bring another ship into unwilling combat, keep that ship in place during combat and prevent it from escaping, and only then will its actual combat ability matter. The first two are a combination of speed an agility, along with the fitting of a web/point at the minimum. Only the third is a function of a ships weapons/tank. Put into these terms, a raven is a) slow, piggish, and b) whatever you want to say, it does have to sacrifice a large portion of its tank to effectivly tackle. It requires 4 things: A MWD, a web, point, and a cap injector. And seeing as we're discussing a solo pvp torp raven, it also requires at least one, possibly two target painters, depending on skills. This fills up all the midslots. There is no tank. Using the low slots, three bcu's, one or no co proc, and one or two PDUs depending on skills. Note that the only tanking modules on this ship is one or two PDUs. Compare this to a minmatar/gallante ship. Mids are your tackling gear/mwd/maybe a cap injector. And while its true that you have to give up three low slots for damage mods, you generally have an abundence of them. Basicly 2 things can be said of the raven. you cannot use it for a solo combat platform, it is outclassed by every other battleship, perhaps barring the scorpion. Two, the raven excels at small gang warfare where it can rely on other, more agile ships to bring enemies to combat, where the ravens strengths can shine.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium BLACKHAWK FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.01.31 20:22:00 - [28] Let me guess... you jumped a Raven who was missioning, and you got hurt... ------------------ Let me show you around. That's my lab table, and this is my workstool. And over there is my intergalactic spaceship. And here's where I keep assorted lengths of wire.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.31 20:41:00 - [29] Originally by: emf True, the abaddon would probably do better against battlecruisers, but only marginally. Once again fitting a warp scrambler, web and cap booster is equivalent to fitting 2 weapon upgrades and a damage control for an armor tanked ship. The raven can still fit 3 weapon upgrades and a damage control. And the Raven has 6 mid slots while armor tanking battleships can have 7 or even 8 low slots. Apart from that there is the issue that turret weapon systems can still do full damage to small targets if they have sufficiently low transversal velocities while torps will never do full damage whether the targets are moving or not. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Caligulus Legion of Lost Souls	Posted - 2008.01.31 20:53:00 - [30] In an ideal world with ideal conditions... Eve isn't so ideal, nor is PvP combat. Recreating those ideal circumstances given ship maneuverabilities etc is a whole different matter. It's like comparing a formula one car and a k-car that don't have engines and saying they both move at the same speed. 0 m/s. You really need to look at the whole picture to draw and accurate conclusion. Otherwise it's all just part of the picture. ------------------------------------------------- ** You're out of your mind! ** Well that's between me and my mind.

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